Let There Be Light and There Was Light

[kylixguru]

Sorry astarath, but you are absolutely mistaken. Read Genesis 1:2. Darkness was there before the creation of that light in the first day. When light was created, darkness dissipated as proof that it was only the absence of light. But metaphorically, and according to Essene Theology, when the prophesy of the light on the first day of Creation was fulfilled with the rise of Israel, darkness, being the Gentiles, stayed to give rise to the spiritual war between the children of darkness and the children of light.

I thought it was the purpose of Israel to be the salvation of the Gentiles to give them an opportunity to escape they tyranny of being governed solely by men. It's true not all Gentiles would cooperate and that there would be some conflict, but you make it sound like Israel was to be an enemy to the Gentiles and this just is not so. We were given to be a blessing to them. To be something they would wish to seek to and emulate, not flee away from.

 

[Ben Masada]

I thought it was the purpose of Israel to be the salvation of the Gentiles to give them an opportunity to escape they tyranny of being governed solely by men. It's true not all Gentiles would cooperate and that there would be some conflict, but you make it sound like Israel was to be an enemy to the Gentiles and this just is not so. We were given to be a blessing to them. To be something they would wish to seek to and emulate, not flee away from.

You might be reading my posts, but you are not focoused on what you are reading. That war between the children of darkness and the children of light is an item in the Essene Theology. To the Essenes it might be literal, but I believe it is spiritual. What I fight back in the Gentiles is their promoting of the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.

 

[Ben Masada]

So you expect me to believe those of the House of Joseph had nothing to do with Hebrew Scripture?

Who said something like that? I didn't. See what I mean? You are not focoused on what you are reading. The House of Joseph had everything to do with the Hebrew Scriptures. But no longer. They are gone. Read about the two sticks as one in the
"hand' of God. (Ezek. 37:19,22)

Or, you expect me to believe Joseph's descendents are all exterminated?

Yes, as far as the Tribal system was concerned. They got lost by becoming one with the Gentiles. Those among them who joined Judah without conversion, they did already during the moratorium of about 100 years between their taken over by the Assyrians and the temporary exile of Judah to Babylon. Now, anyone claiming that he or she belongs to any of those Tribes, who wants to join Judah, he or she must convert to Judaism.

Seems to me if you took some time to objectively read the Hebrew Scriptures of MY fathers, you would understand neither of those cases are so.

What do you mean by "Hebrew Scriptures of MY fathers," the Book of Mormon? I have read it twice already, and debated some of their young men face-to-face for several times.

Judah is exactly where Jacob said they would be in the last days. Asleep on the couch.

That's what you think. Nine Gentiles have embraced Judaism as a result of my work. If Jacob could return from the dead, he woud be proud to see that I am not asleep on the couch.

No, Zion is not limited to Judah. Today's Zionists of the Jewish flavor are nothing more than an Edomite incursion seeking revenge. They are those who say they are Jews but who are not...

Now, can you see what I mean by Replacement Theology? You are doing Paul's work unaware of what you are doing.

You are dreaming here Ben! Get up off the couch and get acquainted with your birthright brother. They are alive and well.

Yes, assimilated among the Gentiles.

 

[jtartar]

Let There Be Light and There Was Light - Today, 07:48 PM



It has been an a "tohu vavohu" among many questioners, especially Christians, even many Jews, to come up with an explanation for that kind of light in Genesis 1:3 wen the sun, which gives light by day was created only on the 4th day of creation. The embarrassment is that at both, Atheists laugh. And not because they know any better in terms of an adequate answer, but for two other reasons: First, because they look for answer only in Science; and of course it is not there but in Theology. And in Theology, they laugh at us for they think
that we are all speaking about an anthropomorphic god, which, as I don't blame them: It indeed never existed.

But what light is indeed the Torah writer referring to when he reports of God as declaring, "Let there be light?"

Since before the creation of the universe it was already in the designs of God to provide for salvation of Mankind, a People whom salvation would come from, in the words of Jesus himself in John 4:22.

When for good, the Assyrians removed Israel from existence by replacing the Northern population of the Galilee with Gentiles, and after the Jews or Southern pupulation was taken for an temporary exile of 70 years in Babylon, and the time had arrived for their return to the Land of Israel, Prophet Isaiah said that the people who walked in darkness, he meant the Gentiles in Galilee, had seen a great light as the Jewish People was returning to the Land of Israel. (Isa. 9:2)

Then, later, he confirms that light of Genesis 1:3 when he explained that Israel had been assigned as light to the nations. (Isa. 42:6) But the light was to remain divided from the darkness, so that both should exist in the same world; although, in the language of the Essenes, there would always be a conflict between the children of Light and the children of darkness. Between Jews and Gentiles.

Jesus was aware of this Light as he delivered his famous Sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews, when he said to them: "You are the Light of the world." (Mat. 5:14) The reason why he said "you are" and not "you have" is that what one has, it can be taken away, but what one is he is no matter what. Individually, we have the light the world needs to know God. But as a People, we are the light of Genesis 1:3, which the world needs for salvation.

Ben

Ben Masada,
Every time I read one of your posts it suprises me that a person who knows so little can make such great statements, without any investigation at all.
If you will take the time to acquire a book on Hebrew, you will find that the words for God's having Created the heavens and the earth, Gen 1:1, are different from the word in Gen 1:16, where it says that God proceeded to MAKE the two great luminaries.
God had created the luminaries billions of years before this time. As the Bible tells us, there was a thick Swaddling Band around the earth, Job 38:9, Prov 8:27,28. So at this time God cause the band of water around the earth to become thinner in order for light to shine through, all to prepare the earth for the coming creation of man.
It is true that salvation originated with the Jews, they WERE much favored as can be seen by what is written at Rom 3:1,2, 9:1-5. Because they rejected the son of God, which means that they also rejected the One true God, Luke 9:22, John 3:35,36, 1John 2:22,23.
Notice that anyone not believing on Jesus is calling God Himself a lier!!! NOT VERY SMART, John 5:37,38, 3:23, 4:9, 5:9-12.
A very imporaant thing to remember is: ALL these that are telling about Jesus as the Son of God are Jews, that all Jews are supposed to believe.

 

[Ben Masada]

Ben Masada,

Every time I read one of your posts it suprises me that a person who knows so little can make such great statements, without any investigation at all.

Everything I state is well documented in the Scriptures for the proper evidences. What is your case in the issue?

If you will take the time to acquire a book on Hebrew, you will find that the words for God's having Created the heavens and the earth, Gen 1:1, are different from the word in Gen 1:16, where it says that God proceeded to MAKE the two great luminaries.

Have you ever read or at least heard about the "The Guide for the Perplexed" by Moses Maimonides? He says that the whole account of Creation is an allegory, which must be interepreted metaphorically. The problem with my co-debaters is that they are too literalists. The "Let it be light" of the first day in Genesis 1:3 was a prophecy about the rise of Israel from the stock of Abraham, Isaac ad Jacob, as all the other days were periods of many years. The idea of the six literal days was only in terms to establish the Jewish Shabbat.

God had created the luminaries billions of years before this time. As the Bible tells us, there was a thick Swaddling Band around the earth, Job 38:9, Prov 8:27,28. So at this time God cause the band of water around the earth to become thinner in order for light to shine through, all to prepare the earth for the coming creation of man.

To agree with you, won't affect anything I have said above.

It is true that salvation originated with the Jews, they WERE much favored as can be seen by what is written at Rom 3:1,2, 9:1-5. Because they rejected the son of God, which means that they also rejected the One true God, Luke 9:22, John 3:35,36, 1John 2:22,23.

How could the Son of God reject the son of God? Read Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My Son; let My So go so that he may serve Me." The replacement of Israel by Jesus on an individual basis is an attempt to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology, which, according to some Scholars is a kind of religious Antisemitism.

Notice that anyone not believing on Jesus is calling God Himself a lier!!! NOT VERY SMART, John 5:37,38, 3:23, 4:9, 5:9-12.

Pauline rhetoric that holds no water.

A very imporaant thing to remember is: ALL these that are telling about Jesus as the Son of God are Jews, that all Jews are supposed to believe.

Wrong! ALL these that are telling about Jesus as the son of God is simply Replacement Theology, because according to Torah, Israel is the Son of God. (Exo. 4:22,23)

 

[kylixguru]

Every time I read one of your posts it suprises me that a person who knows so little can make such great statements, without any investigation at all.

Are you immune from doing the same?

If you will take the time to acquire a book on Hebrew, you will find that the words for God's having Created the heavens and the earth, Gen 1:1, are different from the word in Gen 1:16, where it says that God proceeded to MAKE the two great luminaries.

How about you tell us more about these two words right here and now?

God had created the luminaries billions of years before this time.

Huh? I am not familiar with any passage saying 'billions'.

As the Bible tells us, there was a thick Swaddling Band around the earth, Job 38:9, Prov 8:27,28. So at this time God cause the band of water around the earth to become thinner in order for light to shine through, all to prepare the earth for the coming creation of man.

I also have no recollection of a "swaddling band" around our planet being explicitly spoken of. The waters of which you speak are H2O in metaphor only. Rev 17:15 tells you what the literal understanding of what these 'waters' are. It is not difficult to see how being submersed under a thick layer of the philosophies of men can block out the sun's light.

 

[kylixguru]

Who said something like that? I didn't.

You are more than welcome to clarify, but you explicitly claimed holy writ to the exclusive credit of the Jewish people to the exclusion of Joseph's people, from which I descend.

You said:

Now, on your question about my right to interpret the Scriptures, the answer is that I belong to the People who wrote those Scriptures, while you are only a reader trying to push your Mormon ideas in the hope that a Gentile can teach Judaism to a Jew.

I make no pretense to teach you Judaism.
I make no pretense to teach you modern Mormonism either.

What I endeavor to see established is man giving up his self-serving agendas that blinds him to see the plain and precious truths that are woven into all holy writ that makes of all the sacred writings of the family of Abraham one family in peace and harmony. How long do you think this shall take if Islam, Jews, Christians, Mormons, etc. all hold dogmatically to their contradicting points of view? Why hasn't it yet occurred to people to consider for just a moment that the God of Abraham has spoken to all of Abraham's descendents and that there is a way all that He has spoken to all of them can be calibrated into one harmoneous understanding?

See what I mean? You are not focoused on what you are reading. The House of Joseph had everything to do with the Hebrew Scriptures. But no longer. They are gone.

I already caught that distinction. No need to repeat it.

Read about the two sticks as one in the
"hand' of God. (Ezek. 37:19,22)

This is a prophecy of a time when the kingdoms would in fact be reunited and all 12 tribes of Israel would be unified under one King again. This happens under the leadership of the Branch Messiah from the House of Joseph represented by the 2nd goat of Yom Kippur.

Isaiah 11
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
​

This prophecy has yet to be fulfilled. It is the Messiah that Judiasm yet awaits.

When the Lord clearly and explicitly says "the outcasts of Israel (the people of the northern kingdom) shall be assembled" and you say otherwise is the height of hypocrisy and arrogance. All points in holy writ you use to support your hypocrisy are painfully tweaked and they blind you to what is truly going to happen in the 'last days'.

How have the people of the northern kingdom ever been assembled from the four corners of the earth withersoever they have been driven among the Gentiles?

Yes, as far as the Tribal system was concerned. They got lost by becoming one with the Gentiles.

Then the same logic would have you forever considered Persians and Babylonians.

Those among them who joined Judah without conversion, they did already during the moratorium of about 100 years between their taken over by the Assyrians and the temporary exile of Judah to Babylon. Now, anyone claiming that he or she belongs to any of those Tribes, who wants to join Judah, he or she must convert to Judaism.

Judaism has had nothing but sleep and death to offer since their diaspora and shall have nothing but that to offer until they stop vexing their birthright brother. (Isaiah 11:13) They need to stop throwing that 2nd goat of Yom Kippur over the cliff. He is their Messiah who escapes alive and brings victory and salvation.

What do you mean by "Hebrew Scriptures of MY fathers," the Book of Mormon?

I mean Torah.

I have read it twice already, and debated some of their young men face-to-face for several times.

You are to be commended if you read it with sincere inquiry.

Nine Gentiles have embraced Judaism as a result of my work.

And, like Jesus chided the Pharisees, you made them two-fold the children of death (hell) in doing so. Judaism offers death, not life.

If Jacob could return from the dead, he woud be proud to see that I am not asleep on the couch.

If you believed Jacob you would ask how it is your brothers of Judah were asleep on the couch and wonder how to identify the Shiloh Messiah who would rouse them up.

Now, can you see what I mean by Replacement Theology? You are doing Paul's work unaware of what you are doing.

You have proven yourself to not understand Paul so I don't accept your stereotypes.

Yes, assimilated among the Gentiles.

And, to be assembled again from the four corners of the earth. Assembled into what? Their tribes. And then what? They and their brothers of Judah shall see eye to eye and together build up the real Zion, not the counterfeit your people are hoodwinked into building right now.

 

[esmith]

I also have no recollection of a "swaddling band" around our planet being explicitly spoken of.

They are probably referring to the Jewish Study Bible or the Tanakh which says:
"When I clothed it in clouds,
Swaddled it in dense clouds."

 

[astarath]

That's a fun idea.

 

[kylixguru]

Ben Masada, I would like this discussion to continue. Are you still listening?

 

[Ben Masada]

You are more than welcome to clarify, but you explicitly claimed holy writ to the exclusive credit of the Jewish people to the exclusion of Joseph's people, from which I descend.

I am not the one claiming that credit; the Psalmist is. It is all down in the Scriptures. The Word of God was given to Israel only and to no other people on earth. Joseph or the Kingdom of the North has been no longer a people on earth. Read Ezekiel 37:22.

What I endeavor to see established is man giving up his self-serving agendas that blinds him to see the plain and precious truths that are woven into all holy writ that makes of all the sacred writings of the family of Abraham one family in peace and harmony. How long do you think this shall take if Islam, Jews, Christians, Mormons, etc. all hold dogmatically to their contradicting points of view? Why hasn't it yet occurred to people to consider for just a moment that the God of Abraham has spoken to all of Abraham's descendents and that there is a way all that He has spoken to all of them can be calibrated into one harmoneous understanding?

How long indeed will take for that general harmony to come true? When the nations reach for the Jews and beg to join them for having finally acknowledged that God is with us. That's in Zechariah 8:23.

This is a prophecy of a time when the kingdoms would in fact be reunited and all 12 tribes of Israel would be unified under one King again. This happens under the leadership of the Branch Messiah from the House of Joseph represented by the 2nd goat of Yom Kippur.

The Branch Messiah is the Triumphant Servant Judah which God confirmed to remain forever as a Lamp in Jerusalem. (Psalm 78:67-69; I Kings 11:36) The Tabernacle of Joseph was rejected forever. You are right about Joseph representing the second goat of Yom Kippur. That goat is gone and dead. The gathering with Judah has happened already when a few thousands from among them joined Judah before Judah had been taken to their temporary exile of 70 years in Babylon. That moratorium is over too. Today, if anyone wants to join, he or she must convert according to Jewish Law. Perhaps this reason explains your so bitter arrogance against the Jewish People.

Isaiah 11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
This prophecy has yet to be fulfilled. It is the Messiah that Judiasm yet awaits.

When Assyria dismantled Israel, the kingdom of the North, many from among the people were left dispersed by Assyria. Then, they gathered, including many from other parts of the world with the intent to join Judah in the South. Now, for the Messiah that Judaism awaits, he is already back in the Land of Israel. The Messiah is collective and not an individual.

When the Lord clearly and explicitly says "the outcasts of Israel (the people of the northern kingdom) shall be assembled" and you say otherwise is the height of hypocrisy and arrogance. All points in holy writ you use to support your hypocrisy are painfully tweaked and they blind you to what is truly going to happen in the 'last days'.

The text says "the dispersed remnant which shall be left from Assyria. Many, even a few thousands of them had been left behind, which Assyria did not take; they joined Judah in the South. (Isa. 11:11)

How have the people of the northern kingdom ever been assembled from the four corners of the earth withersoever they have been driven among the Gentiles?

This is happening now before your own eyes. Otherwise, how could I have made Aliyah 20 years ago? If you claim to descend from any of those tribes, try it without the proper conversion to see what rejection means.

Judaism has had nothing but sleep and death to offer since their diaspora and shall have nothing but that to offer until they stop vexing their birthright brother. (Isaiah 11:13) They need to stop throwing that 2nd goat of Yom Kippur over the cliff. He is their Messiah who escapes alive and brings victory and salvation.

We don't need a reason to serve the Lord. The hope of reward as a reason to serve God is only for those of your kind since Paul, whose reason was the resurrection of the dead, as he declared that if the dead won't resurrect, let us eat and drink for tomorrow we die. (I Cor. 15:32) The man was ready to make a carnival of his life if his hope of an afterlife was lost. That shows how Hellenist he was.

You are to be commended if you read it with sincere inquiry.

As I told you, I read the Book of Mormon two times. The second time around I took upon myself to write on the book about the plagiarisms. I was surprised to see that the whole book is almost totatlly plagiarized from the Tanakh and the NT. Really embarrassing.

And, like Jesus chided the Pharisees, you made them two-fold the children of death (hell) in doing so. Judaism offers death, not life.

You are contradicting Jesus own words when you charge Judaism with bringing death, when Jesus himself said that salvation comes from the Jews.(John 4:22)

If you believed Jacob you would ask how it is your brothers of Judah were asleep on the couch and wonder how to identify the Shiloh Messiah who would rouse them up.

I don't wonder about Shiloh, I am pretty confident about my Scriptural research on the issue. You are the one who insists on a fantastic interpretation based on Mormon pre-conceived notions.

You have proven yourself to not understand Paul so I don't accept your stereotypes.

That's fair enough, considering that neither do I accept yours.

And, to be assembled again from the four corners of the earth. Assembled into what? Their tribes. And then what? They and their brothers of Judah shall see eye to eye and together build up the real Zion, not the counterfeit your people are hoodwinked into building right now.

Counterfeit! Your anti-Jewish attitude only depicts how much you hate Israel. I am under the impression that you must have tried to join and were rejected. Just like Paul hated the Pharisees because these never allowed him to build a single church in Israeli soil. Envy and grudge are the roots of all evil.

 

[Ben Masada]

Ben Masada, I would like this discussion to continue. Are you still listening?

I am here. You haven't scared me away yet.

 

[kylixguru]

The Word of God was given to Israel only and to no other people on earth. Joseph or the Kingdom of the North has been no longer a people on earth. Read Ezekiel 37:22.

I read Ezekiel 37 and it supports what I am saying perfectly. It says the two kingdoms would be reunited and one king and one shepherd would rule over them.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them [Judah and Israel] one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
​

You are saying the northern kingdom shall never be reassembled as a people ever again. But, this is clearly saying they SHALL be reassembled once their judgment period has expired, which came due just this past year in 2010. And, there shall be one king and one shepherd to rule over all 12 tribes of Israel reunified into a single nation or kingdom. How can this be AFTER they were driven out among the gentiles and heathens if you say they shall NEVER return again? I am baffled as to how you can gainsay such plain and simple words here.

Ezekiel futuristically pointed to David being king over the unified nation, which is a reference to the prophecy that from David's posterity would come all the kings over Israel. However, what isn't there is the statement that this future king would be of the tribe or House of Judah. This anticipation that this Messiah of the last days would be a Jew seems to be assumed for many reasons but that can all be reconcilled when the full picture comes into view. However, this deserves a dedicated thread. I started one here:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2336922-post1.html

How long indeed will take for that general harmony to come true? When the nations reach for the Jews and beg to join them for having finally acknowledged that God is with us. That's in Zechariah 8:23.

Yes, this shall happen when Shiloh Messiah rouses up Judah in the last days.
That is the time when God shall be with them.
The reason the Jews are having to wait all this time is because they have to wait until the 2,730 (390x7) year judgment has expired before the advent of the Father from the House of Joseph can perform His ministry to them and to the world.

The Branch Messiah is the Triumphant Servant Judah which God confirmed to remain forever as a Lamp in Jerusalem. (Psalm 78:67-69; I Kings 11:36) The Tabernacle of Joseph was rejected forever. You are right about Joseph representing the second goat of Yom Kippur. That goat is gone and dead.

Do your homework. That ordinance has been corrupted. That second goat was to escape alive into the wilderness and NOT be killed.

The gathering with Judah has happened already when a few thousands from among them joined Judah before Judah had been taken to their temporary exile of 70 years in Babylon. That moratorium is over too. Today, if anyone wants to join, he or she must convert according to Jewish Law. Perhaps this reason explains your so bitter arrogance against the Jewish People.

I apologize if you perceive bitterness or arrogance. I simply happen to know you are wrong and find it irritating when you ignore very simple passages clearly stating God yet has a great role for the people of Israel (northern kingdom) to perform once their judgment is expired. I promised I'd be as patient as I could be with you. Sorry if I let you down.

When Assyria dismantled Israel, the kingdom of the North, many from among the people were left dispersed by Assyria. Then, they gathered, including many from other parts of the world with the intent to join Judah in the South. Now, for the Messiah that Judaism awaits, he is already back in the Land of Israel. The Messiah is collective and not an individual.

The gathering Ezekiel and Isaiah prophecy of that pertains to the northern kingdom is after their period of judgment is expired. This could not have happened yet. There has not even been a full year of eligibility yet. I believe this could be a good hundred years or more of a process that will continue on for a long time. I expect a fairly major world push to reestablish these outcasts now that their judgment is expired. Will it be 10 years or 20 years from now before anything major develops? I have no idea.

The text says "the dispersed remnant which shall be left from Assyria. Many, even a few thousands of them had been left behind, which Assyria did not take; they joined Judah in the South. (Isa. 11:11)

This is absurd Ben. We are talking about something that is going to be a massively transformational event in the world in the last days, not a few ragtag fugatives that didn't get scooped up in Assyria's dragnet.

This is happening now before your own eyes. Otherwise, how could I have made Aliyah 20 years ago? If you claim to descend from any of those tribes, try it without the proper conversion to see what rejection means.

As I said before, all of what I speak of can transpire and leave you behind. I have no inclination to join a religion that has so massively corrupted sacred ordinances and preaches eternal death. Judaism is a massively torn and divided religion that has no clear light to offer. You are collectively a sleeping lion but if you stay with me and actually read the words of the prophets you just might get a chance at waking up and being ready for God truly being with you as your Messiah.

You are contradicting Jesus own words when you charge Judaism with bringing death, when Jesus himself said that salvation comes from the Jews.(John 4:22)

Back up just a little and take notice Jesus was speaking of the Father. He was telling this woman that a future time would come when she would worship the Father in a place other than Samaria and Jerusalem.

I don't wonder about Shiloh, I am pretty confident about my Scriptural research on the issue. You are the one who insists on a fantastic interpretation based on Mormon pre-conceived notions.

I admit I would not have known about the important role Ephraim and Joseph would play in the latter days if it weren't for Joseph Smith Jr.'s ability to clearly see their place. I find that his interpretation of holy writ does not do any violence to it. Yours, on the other hand, is very dismissive and incongruent on a good number of points.

Counterfeit!

Yes, there are imposters who have infiltrated into the Jewish religion who have corrupted it and are using it to perpetrate things that are not in harmony with what they were given to do. For example, the ordinance of Yom Kippur. Instead of having that 2nd goat escape alive into the wilderness, which represents the whole House of Israel's victory over the adversary, they decided that goat should also be put to death. They are killing their Messiah.

Your anti-Jewish attitude only depicts how much you hate Israel.

What I don't like are the imposters who have infiltrated.

I am under the impression that you must have tried to join and were rejected. Just like Paul hated the Pharisees because these never allowed him to build a single church in Israeli soil. Envy and grudge are the roots of all evil.

Your impression is incorrect. I have great love and affection for Israel and Judah and I hope to goodness Judah wakes up soon and roots the corruptions and imposters out from among them soon.

 

[Ben Masada]

I read Ezekiel 37 and it supports what I am saying perfectly. It says the two kingdoms would be reunited and one king and one shepherd would rule over them. 21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: 22 And I will make them [Judah and Israel] one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all. 23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. 24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

That's exactly my point. As one nation under Judah. No longer under a Tribal system. And that's what has already happened since over 60 years ago.

You are saying the northern kingdom shall never be reassembled as a people ever again. But, this is clearly saying they SHALL be reassembled once their judgment period has expired, which came due just this past year in 2010. And, there shall be one king and one shepherd to rule over all 12 tribes of Israel reunified into a single nation or kingdom. How can this be AFTER they were driven out among the gentiles and heathens if you say they shall NEVER return again? I am baffled as to how you can gainsay such plain and simple words here.

My position stays. The Ten Tribes will never return again to form the kingdom of the North again. One nation, one People, under the Government of Judah, the Tribe promised to David as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever. (I Kings 11:36) And this has already happened. And not last year 2010 but since 62 years ago.

Ezekiel futuristically pointed to David being king over the unified nation, which is a reference to the prophecy that from David's posterity would come all the kings over Israel. However, what isn't there is the statement that this future king would be of the tribe or House of Judah. This anticipation that this Messiah of the last days would be a Jew seems to be assumed for many reasons but that can all be reconcilled when the full picture comes into view. However, this deserves a dedicated thread. I started one here:

Now, all you have to do is to wait for the full picture to come into view.

Yes, this shall happen when Shiloh Messiah rouses up Judah in the last days.
That is the time when God shall be with them. The reason the Jews are having to wait all this time is because they have to wait until the 2,730 (390x7) year judgment has expired before the advent of the Father from the House of Joseph can perform His ministry to them and to the world.

You back again into Mormon Mythology. There won't be any more reference to Tribes. We are one People, united as the Jewish People. There must not be any mention of Tribes.

Do your homework. That ordinance has been corrupted. That second goat was to escape alive into the wilderness and NOT be killed.

Nevertheless, he was metaphorically killed when God rejected him forever and confirmed Judah for the sake of David. (Psalm 78:67-69; I Kings 11:36)

I apologize if you perceive bitterness or arrogance. I simply happen to know you are wrong and find it irritating when you ignore very simple passages clearly stating God yet has a great role for the people of Israel (northern kingdom) to perform once their judgment is expired. I promised I'd be as patient as I could be with you. Sorry if I let you down.

The judgment over the Northern kingdom expired when God rejected Ephraim for good and confirmed Judah, also for good. Why don't you read Psalm 78:67-69 and I Kings 11:36?

The gathering Ezekiel and Isaiah prophecy of that pertains to the northern kingdom is after their period of judgment is expired. This could not have happened yet. There has not even been a full year of eligibility yet. I believe this could be a good hundred years or more of a process that will continue on for a long time. I expect a fairly major world push to reestablish these outcasts now that their judgment is expired. Will it be 10 years or 20 years from now before anything major develops? I have no idea.

See what I mean? You have no idea what you are fighting for, but you fight for whatever all the same, no matter what.

This is absurd Ben. We are talking about something that is going to be a massively transformational event in the world in the last days, not a few ragtag fugatives that didn't get scooped up in Assyria's dragnet.

Imaginations of idealistic minds Jbug, sometimes they come from nowhere. Then it becomes a mission worthy to fight for, as far as we are concerned.

As I said before, all of what I speak of can transpire and leave you behind. I have no inclination to join a religion that has so massively corrupted sacred ordinances and preaches eternal death. Judaism is a massively torn and divided religion that has no clear light to offer. You are collectively a sleeping lion but if you stay with me and actually read the words of the prophets you just might get a chance at waking up and being ready for God truly being with you as your Messiah.

That's really funny! You are talking about our own prophets as if they were a strange thing for us. Then, if we stay with the Gentile that you are, we might get a chance? That's laughable. These prophets you are talking about are the ones who identify the Messiah as the People of Israel. On the contrary, if you stay with us, you might see the real light that the Gentiles of Galilee saw when the Jews were returning from the exile in Babylon.

Back up just a little and take notice Jesus was speaking of the Father. He was telling this woman that a future time would come when she would worship the Father in a place other than Samaria and Jerusalem.

Not where but how. Not in Jerusalem nor in Samaria but in spirit is the only way to worship God. Then, he added that Gentiles worship what they do not know, while we, the Jews, worship whom we know. (John 4:22-24) That's why salvation comes to Gentiles from the Jews. And Jesus spoke in the collective and not on an individual basis.

I admit I would not have known about the important role Ephraim and Joseph would play in the latter days if it weren't for Joseph Smith Jr.'s ability to clearly see their place. I find that his interpretation of holy writ does not do any violence to it. Yours, on the other hand, is very dismissive and incongruent on a good number of points.

So, you can't see the violence to Jewish Theology the interpretation of the Scriptures by Joseph Smith would do? But of course! How could you? You are a Mormon working under the spell of pre-conceived notions. Just like any other Christian, he could not, and all Mormons can't do without preaching Replacement Theology. The replacement of Judaism with Christianity. This is an attack of a religion by another using the former's own Scriptures.

Yes, there are imposters who have infiltrated into the Jewish religion who have corrupted it and are using it to perpetrate things that are not in harmony with what they were given to do. For example, the ordinance of Yom Kippur. Instead of having that 2nd goat escape alive into the wilderness, which represents the whole House of Israel's victory over the adversary, they decided that goat should also be put to death. They are killing their Messiah.

Now, you are getting dramatic but still without dropping your little bomb by one last attempt at trying to persuade us that your Messiah will return in the last days. We are in the days of the Messiah who has been back in the Land of Israel just as Ezekiel stated in 37:12. Get a grip at yourself Jbug, and read a secular book of History about the Jews to understand what kind of People are we in this world. Once Mark Twain was asked for an evidence of the existence of God, and he said, "The Jews." Are we to wonder why?

I don't like are the imposters who have infiltrated.

Yes, like Christians in general mascarade as "Messianic Jews," "Jews-for-Jesus," and Mormons, and many others who profess love for Israel while trying to dismantle the Theology of Judaism.

Your impression is incorrect. I have great love and affection for Israel and Judah and I hope to goodness Judah wakes up soon and roots the corruptions and imposters out from among them soon.

To you, perhaps, my impression is incorrect, as to me is yours. I have waken up and I got involved with the mission to root out the corruptions of the imposters who are tempting to corrupt the Faith of Jesus which was Judaism.

 

[kylixguru]

That's exactly my point. As one nation under Judah. No longer under a Tribal system. And that's what has already happened since over 60 years ago.

There is no explicit basis for this.

My position stays. The Ten Tribes will never return again to form the kingdom of the North again. One nation, one People, under the Government of Judah, the Tribe promised to David as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever. (I Kings 11:36) And this has already happened. And not last year 2010 but since 62 years ago.

Now, all you have to do is to wait for the full picture to come into view.

Seems to me your picture is incongruent and self-aggrandizing whereas my view is that of an objective outsider simply looking at what the texts say.

Please participate in this thread: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/110729-one-reason-why-jesus-has-not.html

You back again into Mormon Mythology. There won't be any more reference to Tribes. We are one People, united as the Jewish People. There must not be any mention of Tribes.

Why vex your brother tribes?

Nevertheless, he was metaphorically killed when God rejected him forever and confirmed Judah for the sake of David. (Psalm 78:67-69; I Kings 11:36)

I've read those passages and they don't nail down how you are reading it. Somehow you are reading into it what you do for what appears to me to be a self-aggrandizing motivation.

The judgment over the Northern kingdom expired when God rejected Ephraim for good and confirmed Judah, also for good. Why don't you read Psalm 78:67-69 and I Kings 11:36?

What judgment expired? I don't think you know what I'm talking about.

See what I mean? You have no idea what you are fighting for, but you fight for whatever all the same, no matter what.

Actually, I have a VERY good idea. The one fold and one shepherd shall be under the leadership of Shiloh from the House of Joseph who comes in the last days to redeem the entire House of Israel out of bondage to bring them into the light on the dawn of the new creation. This is indisputably woven throughout the Law and the Prophets.

Imaginations of idealistic minds Jbug, sometimes they come from nowhere. Then it becomes a mission worthy to fight for, as far as we are concerned.

You are who is imagining a very significant passage is fulfilled by such nominal events that simply serve you to image for yourself that Judah is now "it" and that all of your brothers are "toast".

That's really funny! You are talking about our own prophets as if they were a strange thing for us. Then, if we stay with the Gentile that you are, we might get a chance? That's laughable. These prophets you are talking about are the ones who identify the Messiah as the People of Israel. On the contrary, if you stay with us, you might see the real light that the Gentiles of Galilee saw when the Jews were returning from the exile in Babylon.

You offer no light Ben. From my careful and objective reading of the Law and the Prophets, you are way off track in your interpretation and understanding of things. You have nothing to offer that I can see but a baseless "We are the chosen people" attitude. If you are chosen, what do you have to offer? I'm not looking for a basis to aggrandize myself. I'm looking for answers to how the new creation shall come to be and Jews are just as much a mockery of their God as the Christians and Mormons are. None of you have integrity to what you claim to be holy writ.

Not where but how. Not in Jerusalem nor in Samaria but in spirit is the only way to worship God. Then, he added that Gentiles worship what they do not know, while we, the Jews, worship whom we know. (John 4:22-24) That's why salvation comes to Gentiles from the Jews. And Jesus spoke in the collective and not on an individual basis.

We worship God in spirit now to make of Him our Eternal Father. And, because of doing this, when the "world to come" occurs when God comes to His people in the flesh and establishes His Kingdom here on earth, we will be "born again" in this society and live with Him in the flesh. If you knew your God as you claim, you would not stop where you do. You would see what it all points to in the world to come. But, you are blind to this and therefore have very little to offer.

So, you can't see the violence to Jewish Theology the interpretation of the Scriptures by Joseph Smith would do? But of course! How could you? You are a Mormon working under the spell of pre-conceived notions. Just like any other Christian, he could not, and all Mormons can't do without preaching Replacement Theology. The replacement of Judaism with Christianity. This is an attack of a religion by another using the former's own Scriptures.

I threw everything under the bus and started from scratch. What ultimately became clear to me when I did a totally objective review of it all, I found the basis in the Law and the Prophets for everything Paul and Joseph Smith Jun. revealed. There is a complete and uniform understanding in all of these sacred writings that shows a consistent unfolding of a greater purpose than you realize. If you don't come to the point where you see it, you will be left behind.

Now, you are getting dramatic but still without dropping your little bomb by one last attempt at trying to persuade us that your Messiah will return in the last days. We are in the days of the Messiah who has been back in the Land of Israel just as Ezekiel stated in 37:12. Get a grip at yourself Jbug, and read a secular book of History about the Jews to understand what kind of People are we in this world. Once Mark Twain was asked for an evidence of the existence of God, and he said, "The Jews." Are we to wonder why?

If you understood the landscape the Jewish people are on, having had their sister Aholah's cup given into their hand to drink deep and wide from, you would definitely think twice about what I've said. The gathered people in the State of Israel are deliberatly being given into the hand of their enemy. Your adversary has lawful right to totally overcome you in your gathering. Judah won't be clean until it is thoroughly purged of its wickedness and apostasy. You are yet heading down into this and yet have a sore calamity to endure before you shall be redeemed. And, it shall be your brother Joseph who comes to wake you up from having been overcome by your enemy.

Be sure to carefully read that thread I put a link to above. It's all there very plainly laid out.

Yes, like Christians in general mascarade as "Messianic Jews," "Jews-for-Jesus," and Mormons, and many others who profess love for Israel while trying to dismantle the Theology of Judaism.

All of it is being dismantled Ben, don't you see that? You need to see the basis for this in your own Law and Prophets. Christianity and Mormonism is just as corrupt as Judaism, if not more. In fact, it is through the instrumentality of many Christians throwing money to Israel (the State) that is enabling your enemy to overcome you. That makes all of you a threat to that which is good, pure and true.

Are you trying to tell me that Judaism is a pure and true orthodoxy? If you cannot or will not, nether can you claim to be a source of light to me. It's a mockery, not a light.

To you, perhaps, my impression is incorrect, as to me is yours. I have waken up and I got involved with the mission to root out the corruptions of the imposters who are tempting to corrupt the Faith of Jesus which was Judaism.

Yes, they are there. They are in ALL religions, even Judaism. Judiasm was utterly smashed in 70AD because Aholibah was handed a cup at that time. Aholibah and Aholah are in it together. You need to accept this reality before you are going to see the whole picture.

 

[Vansdad]

one translation is "let light be made"

take into fact the story was handed down orally for hundreds of years before it was written down.

There are 4 different authors as well as a editor who freely added what he felt was right making it a total of 5 different authors. And who knows how many sources these 5 authors pulled from.

I would not put to much thought into it. These storys preceed written language

It represents the fact that light came into existence and isn't meant to be a literal translation.

 

[Ben Masada]

There is no explicit basis for this.

Seems to me your picture is incongruent and self-aggrandizing whereas my view is that of an objective outsider simply looking at what the texts say.

Please participate in this thread: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/110729-one-reason-why-jesus-has-not.html

Why vex your brother tribes?

I've read those passages and they don't nail down how you are reading it. Somehow you are reading into it what you do for what appears to me to be a self-aggrandizing motivation.

What judgment expired? I don't think you know what I'm talking about.

Actually, I have a VERY good idea. The one fold and one shepherd shall be under the leadership of Shiloh from the House of Joseph who comes in the last days to redeem the entire House of Israel out of bondage to bring them into the light on the dawn of the new creation. This is indisputably woven throughout the Law and the Prophets.

You are who is imagining a very significant passage is fulfilled by such nominal events that simply serve you to image for yourself that Judah is now "it" and that all of your brothers are "toast".

You offer no light Ben. From my careful and objective reading of the Law and the Prophets, you are way off track in your interpretation and understanding of things. You have nothing to offer that I can see but a baseless "We are the chosen people" attitude. If you are chosen, what do you have to offer? I'm not looking for a basis to aggrandize myself. I'm looking for answers to how the new creation shall come to be and Jews are just as much a mockery of their God as the Christians and Mormons are. None of you have integrity to what you claim to be holy writ.

We worship God in spirit now to make of Him our Eternal Father. And, because of doing this, when the "world to come" occurs when God comes to His people in the flesh and establishes His Kingdom here on earth, we will be "born again" in this society and live with Him in the flesh. If you knew your God as you claim, you would not stop where you do. You would see what it all points to in the world to come. But, you are blind to this and therefore have very little to offer.

I threw everything under the bus and started from scratch. What ultimately became clear to me when I did a totally objective review of it all, I found the basis in the Law and the Prophets for everything Paul and Joseph Smith Jun. revealed. There is a complete and uniform understanding in all of these sacred writings that shows a consistent unfolding of a greater purpose than you realize. If you don't come to the point where you see it, you will be left behind.

If you understood the landscape the Jewish people are on, having had their sister Aholah's cup given into their hand to drink deep and wide from, you would definitely think twice about what I've said. The gathered people in the State of Israel are deliberatly being given into the hand of their enemy. Your adversary has lawful right to totally overcome you in your gathering. Judah won't be clean until it is thoroughly purged of its wickedness and apostasy. You are yet heading down into this and yet have a sore calamity to endure before you shall be redeemed. And, it shall be your brother Joseph who comes to wake you up from having been overcome by your enemy.

Be sure to carefully read that thread I put a link to above. It's all there very plainly laid out.

All of it is being dismantled Ben, don't you see that? You need to see the basis for this in your own Law and Prophets. Christianity and Mormonism is just as corrupt as Judaism, if not more. In fact, it is through the instrumentality of many Christians throwing money to Israel (the State) that is enabling your enemy to overcome you. That makes all of you a threat to that which is good, pure and true.

Are you trying to tell me that Judaism is a pure and true orthodoxy? If you cannot or will not, nether can you claim to be a source of light to me. It's a mockery, not a light.

Yes, they are there. They are in ALL religions, even Judaism. Judiasm was utterly smashed in 70AD because Aholibah was handed a cup at that time. Aholibah and Aholah are in it together. You need to accept this reality before you are going to see the whole picture.

Jbug, I would like to tell you that I work with several other forums, and some of them, rather busy forums. I check on this one from time to time and, by preference, I give replies only to those who write small comments for a response. Your comments are too long, as if you were the only one I am maintain a debate with. Please, forgive me but I am aswering only the short ones. Reduce your comments and I will return to you.

 

[outhouse]

It represents the fact that light came into existence and isn't meant to be a literal translation.

Its a creation myth, nothing more.

your right it was never ment to be read literally ever.

 

[kylixguru]

Its a creation myth, nothing more.

your right it was never ment to be read literally ever.

You are utterly mistaken. The 'light' it is speaking of is the body of knowledge and understanding that is essential to take the raw elements of humanity (individuals like you and me) and organizing them in such a way to give "life" to a longstanding golden age societal body. This kind of society lives in peace, prosperity, great achievement, etc. The one named Adam was given dominion over all the earth and lasted for nearly 1,000 years. This societal body needs a great period of longevity because it has some very important duties to perform in its lifespan. It ascertains knowledge through practical means as well as revelation to communicate with "the other side" to reorganize an entire "new world" wherein all shall have a part in another cycle of existence. Adam giving all of the creatures a "new name" is our judgment as well as our "measure of creation" for our "world to come". Adam judges the souls of all mankind. Family lineages are organized into nations, kingdoms, etc. with all of its leaders and rulers foreordained to come forth in their times and seasons to shine their light, so to speak, upon the new creation. It's not a new cosmos but a new organization of men upon this earth as we go from lifetime to lifetime. That is what the creation account pertains to. That's why Paul taught what he did in 1 Corinthians 15. He spoke of our future resurrection in terms of the symbols of the creation account. If you honor and respect Adam you might be moved up a notch in the evolutinary scale. If you were given privilege and abused it, count on getting thrown down a good number of notches. Our existence and who and what we are is all recorded in the memories of this planet. There is nothing that remains hidden from seers and revelators, of which Adam's body is composed.

 

[kylixguru]

Jbug, I would like to tell you that I work with several other forums, and some of them, rather busy forums. I check on this one from time to time and, by preference, I give replies only to those who write small comments for a response. Your comments are too long, as if you were the only one I am maintain a debate with. Please, forgive me but I am aswering only the short ones. Reduce your comments and I will return to you.

You are more than welcome to ignore the long ones. Thanks for the suggestion though.