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Featured Let’s talk about the Bible

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Vee, Nov 1, 2017.

  1. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    Planted as Tyndale's successor by those who burned Tyndale at the stake...
     
  2. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Hi Robin, nice to hear from you. Interesting guy your Wallid Shoebat. The Baha'is also associate the beast in revelation (and Daniel) with Islam. The Caliphate of the Umayyad dynasty, followed by the Abbasids, then Ottomans occupied enormous amounts of territory and encompassed the Holy land for much of the period from the seventh to the twentieth century. Jerusalem was recaptured for a while during one of the Christian crusades when most of the Muslim inhabitants were massacred, but I suppose they weren't too happy with Islam's successes along with the enormous misery they caused over many centuries.

    [​IMG]

    Umayyad Caliphate - Wikipedia

    Abdu'l-Baha gave a series of talks to Baha'is from a Christian background during the early twentieth century while resident in the Holy land. He was banished and imprisoned there under the Ottomans for a good portion of his life. Neither the Persians, nor Ottomans were too keen on the Baha'is and together over a 75 year period did their utmost to eradicate us from the face of the earth. We're still persecuted in some Islamic countries to this day. You may be interested to read Abdu'l-Baha's commentary on the twelve chapter of revelation.

    Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 67-72
     
  3. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Cool. We have something in common. I'm never too sure where people are coming from when they start talking about the anti-christ or satan.
     
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  4. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    I think I'm projecting my positive experience as a Baha'i for nearly 30 years. I used to be a Christian. Our governing bodies are elected spiritual assemblies. Every year we elect nine people who best combine the qualities of selfless devotion, mature experience, a well trained mind, unquestioned loyalty, and recognised ability to represent our faith community. It is only the assembly itself, and not the individuals in it that carry authority. We are required to humbly consult with community members before making decisions that would affect everyone.

    Some Christian leaders can certainly be inclined to power and control issues as we all can, but then there are some very worth individuals in those roles too.

    So I would be very careful who I trust. Eventually we are all responsible for our own lives anyhow.
     
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  5. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Correct!

    Just as it isn’t for Christians to separate wheat from tare, neither is it for Muslim, Hindus or Buddhists to do God's separating work either.

    There are many faith groups who make claim to unsound doctrine:

    The Westboro Baptist Church claims “God hates ****” which is unsound doctrine.

    Christian Identity claims God hates Black and Jews which is unsound doctrine.

    ISIS claims God desires His followers to blow "infidels" up on planes and run them over with trucks which is unsound doctrine.

    Aum Shinrikyo claimed God desired trains in Tokyo be attacked with nerve gas which is unsound doctrine.

    Early church leaders claimed we needed a crusade to take liberate Jerusalem from Islam which was unsound doctrine.

    The Watchtower claimed all earthly governments and religions (except their own) would be utterly destroyed in 1914, which was unsound doctrine.

    The list goes on and on.

    I can agree with some but not all of your statement. The missionary work still goes on and will not be achieved until the end of the church age and, as you may suspect, I believe Baha'u'llah preaches a radically different gospel from Christianity.

    Jesus stated “Tetelestai” one of the most critically important statements in the Christian New Testament, literally “It is finished”. Since the work is done it requires no extra help or contribution on our part because there is nothing we can do to save ourselves except but to believe and allow the gospel message into our lives.

    Since Jesus death on the cross brought salvation for mankind I see no need to seek salvation from or through anyone else.

    For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe. (1 Timothy 4:10)​

    For Witnesses: Note it says "...the living God" and not "...a living God".

    I thought @Vee did a good job also. I just couldn’t reconcile her OP that the bible survived and was well preserved with Watchtower declarations that all 5800 extant manuscripts were successfully corrupted and altered nearly 2000 years ago without leaving any evidence or trace.
     
  6. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate your effort to politely soft peddle the Watchtower message here, but your Organization teaches exactly what I stated…that the Baha’I religion, faith and its adherents will be destroyed at Armageddon along with every other religion but your own.


    I think we need to read carefully what the Watchtower is saying here HockeyCowboy, winnowing out what was said and what was not said, so we can "clarify" the actual meaning here.

    According to the Watchtower, it is only the clergy who “…will abandon their religious course and deny that they were ever part of those false religions” that may have a shot of surviving Armageddon.

    Someone who abandons a faith and denies they were ever a member is, by definition, not an adherent of that faith!

    So, according to the Watchtower, the Baha’I religion, faith, and its adherents will be destroyed in the same manner Judaism, Islam, Christianity, and all other “false religions” are destroyed.

    I presented no "strawman" and the assertion stands.
     
  7. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    We teach from the Bible that the government members of the U.N. will turn on and destroy religion (according to the book of Daniel, beasts are governments), I doubt they'd kill their citizens.

    And that's not Armageddon,..... Armageddon is the conflict between human governments and God's Kingdom.
     
  8. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    The point I was making was in reference to your exclusive theology, where you have the One True God that is loving and just, yet sends people to hell because they are Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, and not your kind of Christian. I think you knew that but avoided spelling it out.
    John 14:6

    The point is that nobody deliberately follows a false doctrine. So while I would see all of the above as being false, I would see your doctrine as false on account of its exclusivity, while you see mine as false because....well it just doesn't tick all your boxes?

    That's how the Jews felt about Christ. He preached a radically different truth, and they crucified Him. So in a world that is radically different from the time of Christ when slavery, male domination, and empires were the norm, is it any surprise that the Messiah today brings a new Covenant?
    Jeremiah 31:31-34

    I see no difference between @Vee 's JW doctrine and yours. They are both right and they are both wrong.

    Both @Hockeycowboy and you in your own way and felt compelled to tell me of the error of my ways, but you seem blind to your own.
    Matthew 7:1-4
    But its all good, because I'm blind too.
     
  9. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    Genesis 6:7
    Genesis 19:15
    Revelation 11:18

    Do you know how the Watchtower condemns the people who pick and choose what to believe and what not to believe about what the Bible teaches?

    Are you not doing the same thing?
     
  10. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    Have you considered yet that it means all human governments, not only secular ones? Does the doctrine of the Watchtower not govern you? It does. It is a government.
     
  11. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    The Bible never mentions or implies anything about the U.N., and false claims like this have existed for centuries, including with the JW's and their false predictions. And then instead of admitting their wrong, they double-down by inventing stories that are virtually impossible to verify in any way.
     
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  12. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    I can partially accept that. However in his first formal debate against Catholic authorities (at the diet of Worms I believe) it was Huss he was compared with. Can you accept that Luther himself sincerely challenged the Catholic church and translated the bible irrespective of Tyndale? Luther never attempted to ride anyone's coat tails and had many complaints against both his predecessors and contemporary reformers. Luther was simply being Luther.
     
  13. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    To my shock and amazement I actually agree with you.
     
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  14. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    If Martin Luther was the Alex Jones of his day he would seem to be against the system all the while dropping the ball on key issues.
     
  15. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Hey, you must be getting more intelligent with age.:D
     
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  16. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    I hve studied all sides carefully for years. There is 0 doubt in all creation--The JW teachers are correct. The teachings of Jesus prove it And the facts of history.
     
  17. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    I didn't judge, I stated facts.
     
  18. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    And you lie as you clearly do judge others even though Jesus and Paul taught you not to do so.

    It's increasing clear that you far more believe in what your JW teachers would have you believe than in what Jesus and Paul taught you to believe, so maybe remember that when you claim you really believe in them and the Bible next time.

    IOW, stop judging others.
     
  19. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    That is what you teach but I don’t believe it’s from the bible, also what you teach now isn’t always what you’ve taught.

    Also, how the Watchtower claims the United Nations will soon destroy Judaism in Israel, Islam in Iran, Hinduism in India, Christianity in the United States, and Buddhism in Cambodia…let alone all religions world-wide…is beyond me. It would certainly be interesting to get your perspective on that.

    For instance, if the UN is going to destroy all "false religions" does that mean the UN will soon be seized by atheists, and wouldn't every government that is a UN member have to be seized by atheists also? Also, if the UN sets itself up as an atheistic "true religion" wouldn't it be false, necessitating the United Nations destroy itself in accordance with bible prophesy?
     
    #419 Oeste, Nov 16, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
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  20. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    I think your reading a peculiar meaning into my posts that just isn't there.

    I've already spelled out Christians will not be separating wheat from tare. Neither will Buddhist, Hindus, Muslim nor any "...not my kind of Christian" which I suppose encompasses any "...not my kind of atheist" either.

    It doesn't matter how I see things or how other see things, but how God sees things. As a Christian I believe how God sees things is pretty well laid out in the bible.

    Well there you go! That is exactly how I see it. Jesus will do the judging. Those that profess Jesus (in their heart and not simply by their mouth, see Matthew 7:23) will escape judgment. Those that do not enter into judgment.

    Entering into judgment does not mean you've earned a first class ticket to hell. That is determined by whether your name is entered into the book of life. I've mentioned this to you before:


    If it were only Christians entering heaven Moses, Daniel and all the prophets would be condemned as well. Your quote of John 14:6 leads me to believe you already knew this but for some reason didn't want to spell it out.


    I disagree with this. The Nazis had a false doctrine of racial purity. It didn't matter whether the doctrine was true or false, it only mattered that it could serve the Nazis. In other words, and from their perspective: "If something we say is true great, but if its false, who cares?"

    We've seen this in our elections as well. If you're an ideologue you'll quickly adopt and follow any doctrine, rumor or teaching that supports your ideology.

    In order to accept your assertion that "...nobody deliberately follow a false doctrine" I would have to ascribe altruistic intrinsic qualities like veracity and character to folks who simply may not have any.

    The Baha'i add to scripture even though we've been explicitly told not to add or subtract anything from scripture. (Deuteronomy 4:6, Proverbs 30:6, Revelation 22;18-19)


    Well let's make sure you have my doctrines correct then.

    I believe the Christian bible contains the word of God. Any other book contains the world of God to the extent it agrees with the bible. Thus, I see the bible as authoritative.

    I believe Jesus is God (John 1:1, John 1:3, Isaiah 44:24), and it is God who is our Savior (Isaiah 43:11, Luke 2:11), and it is God who will be our judge (John 14:6, Isaiah 33:22).

    This precluded Christians, Muslims, and Buddhists or anyone else from marching up and down the aisles of any church, temple or mosque and pointing out who is saved and who is not. It also precludes them from pointing at the church, temple, or mosque across the street and determining their judgment as well.

    This does NOT mean I believe in an "anything goes" doctrine. In other words, any Satanist can stick a cross on a building and proclaim their members Christian. Matthew 7:23 makes this clear.

    I believe to have assurance of salvation you should be born again.

    What is no surprise is that there are many churches claiming new Messiahs. Besides, there is Matthew 24:23-25 to contend with:

    23 “Then if anyone tells you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah,’ or ‘There he is,’ don’t believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God’s chosen ones. 25 See, I have warned you about this ahead of time.​

    Well, you certainly felt compelled to declare the Trinity false with your very first post on this thread. Statements like that are almost guaranteed to garner a response. :)

    Excellent Adrian! That is good bible counsel. Remember, we all see now in shadows, as through a glass darkly (1 Corinthians 13:12).

    But this doesn't mean we're helpless to determine truth from fiction. For instance, we can take the same approach as the Bereans (Acts 17:11) to determine what is so, just like we're doing now.
     
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