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Featured Let’s talk about the Bible

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Vee, Nov 1, 2017.

  1. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    Also, it is being warned that a believer not be putting his trust in men. Psalms 146:3 But, they say that to be a Jehovah's Witnesses means to trust the men of the governing body of them.

    There is much more, but most of what I disagree with is personal and can not be proved Biblically.
     
  2. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    Actually, I made a mistake on that post. The quotation looked so much like the one from chapter 5 was it. In which case it was a quote cut off in mid-sentence, so to say.

    My bad. Some things if brought up - may be used for deeper discussions. This website seems to have little religious banter. In either case, I find religious conversations as limited as the atheistic ones.

    Thank you for bringing it up.
     
  3. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    We certainly don’t want to cause contention between individual members, but we do want to get people to think about how much of what they’re taught actually agrees w/ the Bible. It’s not their fault, really.... it’s their religious leaders!

    Just like Jesus. He didn’t malign the common people; rather, He taught them. He did, however, blast their Scribes and Pharisees!


    I see you mentioned that you don’t believe the Bible teaches the trinity. Do you think the Bible teaches hellfire? Just curious.
    (What do you consider Holy Writings for the Baha’i?)
     
  4. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    The book of revelation is arguably the most difficult book in the entire bible to make sense of. The four horsemen of the apocalypse are an ominous sign of the travail that will cover the earth.

    My understanding for what its worth is the white horse is corrupted theology, disguised with the colour of purity but bent upon conquering the minds of men. Its rider is the worldly church, who holds in his hands the bow of propaganda. The crown given him is spiritual authority.

    So there you go, three different opinions! Admittedly my thoughts are closer to yours. Jesus Christ? No. The institutions that represents the corrupted theology of Jesus Christ. Yes.
     
  5. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    I don't see it as uncharitable but as historically accurate.

    We are all subject to error, even me. :)

    It is Christ who does the saving, not Christians, and it is the angels who separate wheat from tare, again not a job for Christians.

    Even so, this does not mean we can abandon sound doctrine or approach scripture in a Berean like manner. Unfortunately, I see a lot of "proof texting" on this forum with little regard for context or reconciliation with other biblical passages.

    In any event, to answer your question, only Jesus can say who is saved and who is not. I believe in order to be saved your name must be written in the book of life. If you want an assurance of salvation, then you should be born again.
     
  6. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    If we don't have a degree of trust and confidence in those that govern are faith community, whether they are elected or appointed, then what are we about? Blind obedience is another story.

    Corruption to some extent in religious leadership is common place, and not unique to the Jehovah witnesses, or Christianity.
     
  7. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Getting people to consider more deeply what the bible means is a good thing.

    The fall of the stars of the heaven of understanding to earth as exemplified by the Pharisees was a sign of the times that accompanied Christ's advent. Similar signs can be discerned in religious leadership today.

    Hellfire is separation from God, and heaven is nearness to God.

    Baha'is believe in the same God, Jesus, and bible as the Christians.

    Baha'i have sacred writings based on the Teachings of our founder Baha'u'llah (Glory of God).
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  8. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    It isn't for the Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists.

    Exactly, I'm all for sound doctrine. What Faith group makes a claim for unsound doctrine?

    What God requires of humanity changes from age to age. Moses brought the law for the Hebrew people to prepare them to take over the land of Canaan and eventually to create a nation based on Gods law. Christ enabled these reworked teachings along with new ones to be spread throughout the world which was achieved in the nineteenth century. Baha'u'llah brought new Teachings for this day that are applicable to the age we live in now. Moses, Christ, and Baha'u'llah all brought salvation to Their people.

    My purpose on entering this thread however was to acknowledge an excellent OP that brings attention to one of the most outstanding and influential compositions of sacred writings in history.
     
  9. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Just to winnow and clarify what Oeste stated.....he said that we teach 'all adherents (of false religion) will be destroyed'. That is a strawman. We don't teach that, only the organizations themselves, and possibly some leaders, will be eliminated, by the governments.

    In a discussion of Zechariah 13:4, it was stated:

    In that day each of the prophets will be ashamed of his vision when he prophesies; and they will not wear an official garment of hair in order to deceive.—Zech. 13:4.

    Will the destruction of the religions of Babylon the Great result in the death of all the former members of those religions? Apparently not. Some of the clergy will abandon their religious course and deny that they were ever part of those false religions. (
    Zech. 13:5, 6) How will God’s people fare at that time? Jesus explains: “In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.” (Matt. 24:22) In 66 C.E., the tribulation was “cut short.” This allowed “the chosen ones,” anointed Christians, to flee the city and its environs. Likewise, the initial part of the future great tribulation will be “cut short” because of “the chosen ones.” The political “ten horns” will not be allowed to annihilate God’s people. (Rev. 17:16)
    --
    Excerpt taken from WT '15 7/15 2:5, 6.....also found online at August — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    So if some of the former leaders will survive the destruction of the harlot, certainly the 'fleeced sheep' will live through it! What matters at Armageddon, is how a person reacts to Jehovah God's Sovereignty, i.e., His Rulership by means of the Kingdom in the hands of Jesus.

    And all those who have died without knowing God or His purposes -- much less knowing about His government rule -- will be resurrected back to life on Earth (John 5:28-29; Isaiah 45:18; Isaiah 11:6-9), being given a chance to live forever (Revelation 21:3-4) by accepting God's Sovereignty! -- 1 Corinthians 15:28; Ephesians 1:9-10.

    Take care, my cousin.
     
    #389 Hockeycowboy, Nov 15, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
  10. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Cousins respect each others faith and don't undermine others by suggesting they follow a false prophet.
     
  11. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    No! Two different opinions. I think you are right
    What you have described can be called "anti-christ".
     
  12. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    Why trust AND confidence?
    If you are trusting someone other than God and he says "go this way", but God does not say, "don't" you will go the way of the one in whom you trust.
    Confidence, on the other hand, is to respect a person for the way he goes just like you want to be respected for your way. It doesn't have to lead to being led by him. It might. Trust should always induce a person to be led.

    Trust is giving power to the one who is being trusted.

    Trust is firm. Confidence can be easily shaken.

    If people would just put confidence in those taking the lead, the bad ones who want to lead instead of God would be defeated.

    Because they want the honor of real trust. So, they can get what they want.

    Confidence in others just makes peace.

    It's just like the difference between like and love. Like is something that can easily wane. Real love should be forever.

    If you put your trust in someone who proves to be untrustworthy, then you were wrong.
    If you put your confidence in someone who proves disloyal, then you did the best you could. You weren't wrong.

    So, I believe I should, and I have, put my confidence in other humans.
    I see it as respectful and a helper.

    Trust, on the other hand, does not help because it puts weight on the one trusted.

    I don't want weight on me.

    Do you want weight put on you?
     
  13. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    And can you please explain how you say you believe in Jesus, who said "judge ye not", and yet we see you doing just that above? Even Paul was unwilling to judge himself, and yet you believe you have the power to judge others.
     
  14. Vee

    Vee Active Member
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    The Bible is popular
    Millions of people know it
    It has a lot of history, mythology, analogy, and parables
    The children's bible is actually a good read

    but then



    Although it's an incredible story, what I wonder more is:

    1. If the bible disappeared, would Christ? Christ is the son of God. The Bible says he was the first creation. He existed long before the Bible was written and if the Bible disappeared he would continue to exist.

    2. Which is the Word: Christ or Scripture? The scriptures are the word or the written message from God. However sometimes Jesus too is identified as "the word". That means Jesus was God’s Word of communication, or Spokesman, for conveying information and instructions.

    3. What is the difference between seeing the bible as sacred and Christ as sacred? Can you live without one in favor of the other? If not, why? They are both sacred. The Bible as God's words and Jesus as God's son. But they are not the same thing. A book and a person are not the same and can't really be put on the same level, for lack of a better word.

    The Dharma has influenced millions of people, people have been imprisoned for spreading the Dharma. Others it has changed their life and none have not heard of the bible. On top of that, there are over a thousands of suttas and each one not neglected from being part of The Dharma.

    Buddhist cosmology has many to say about gods and Bodhisattva. A lot of which you can experience their "presence" in temples and like places.

    Sacred? Yes

    Dependent on physical Dharma? No.

    4. My question is why is the physical bible so important? For us Christians, the Bible is God's message and a source of knowledge, guidance and hope.
    Many many Buddhist see practice as sacred and suttas secondary to our practice.

    I know people who can't live without their physical bible with them. Jesus didn't walk around with the physical torah. It was all oral.
    I have a digital version on my phone now but we are encouraged to study the bible and be familiar with what it says. It is not always possible to have a physical copy but the knowledge is personal and says with the individual.

    5. If he can practice without the physical jewish scripture, why not Christians? When Jesus was on earth the Bible wasn't completed yet. He was familiar with the old testament but he came here to teach humans. I can't imagine being capable of committing to memory everything the bible contains. It is very helpful to have access to the book.

    You say that many Buddhists see practice as sacred and suttas secondary to your practice. Can you tell me more about what you practice and why? I studied a little years ago but can't remember much.
     
  15. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Thank you

    Thank you. This is the first I head this from a christian. Id say Jesus has oral traditions. The written word isnt the spoken Word incarnate as the son.

    Above, you answered it as Christ. Many people like to answer yes and no questions as both. If the bible wa sacred, it would always exist. Since it does not need to stay in existenxe for christ to exist, it would be the latter.

    They use it as idols rather than study guides.

    Id assume he would speak to you directly?

     
  16. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    1. I do not know if he was first or not but Luther did translate the bible from Latin into German and it spread like wildfire throughout other languages.
    2. It is primarily Huss that was used to try and shut Martin Luther up by pointing out his fate, not Tyndale.
     
  17. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    I was saying the opposite. Once Tyndale opened "pandora's box" it couldn't be shut. So they burned him at the stake. Then I'm wondering if it's possible that Martin Luther a planted leader, tasked with taking the lead of what Tyndale started. Sort of like masquerading as a protestant to gather the flock and steer it back to conformity with Rome, which is why you hear his name so much, never anything about Tyndale.
     
  18. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    That was a great post and I would love to discuss it with you but it covers so much ground I do not know where to start. The bible's textual history is even more miraculous than you described. Would you like to discuss the specific accuracy and integrity of the bible's NT textual tradition?
     
  19. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    Hello Adrian, you are right to suggest that revelations is hard to get a handle on. Eschatology contains so much cryptic language and apocalyptic imagery that it is hard to know what to make out of it.

    However the most consistent, logical, and encompassing interpretation I have ever heard is that of a man named Wallid Shoebat. He is a former Muslim and PLO terrorist turned Christian eschatology expert. I strongly advise you to read him or watch one of his presentations on UTUBE.
     
  20. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    I do not really see anything above to disagree with except for maybe your claim that Luther's roll was specifically as Tyndale's successor. However can you show that either of the two claims I made has a flaw?



    Here I don't agree with you.

    1. I think Luther was sincere when he challenged the Catholic church and his actions are completely consistent with that. I also consider his body of work comparable with any in the protestant movement.
    2. I and most laymen theologians and apologists have heard of William Tyndale.
     
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