1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Lehi on the Witness Stand

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by dan, Sep 24, 2005.

  1. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,464
    Ratings:
    +96
    Know what?
     
  2. Merlin

    Merlin Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2005
    Messages:
    810
    Ratings:
    +49
    That there are no Mormons in hell.
     
  3. Merlin

    Merlin Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2005
    Messages:
    810
    Ratings:
    +49
    Out of curiosity, were you born into a Mormon family?
     
  4. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,464
    Ratings:
    +96
    You'd be surprised how many non-Mormon shelves have copies of the Book of Mormon. That isn't to say that they read them, though.

    Well, the purpose of the Book of Mormon is stated in the introduction - to convince both Jew and Gentile alike that Jesus is the Christ. It explains how the prophecy in Ezekiel 37:16-17 was fulfilled; it explains how the tribe of Joseph was perpetuated; it explains in further detail the covenants made with the house of Israel, as well as with the Gentiles. It testifies of Christ and His atoning sacrifice, helping us to better understand the how and the why. It explains the ordinances and covenants of the Gospel that are vague or altogether missing from the Bible, like the true mode of baptism, the problem of authority, and the true nature of our relationship with God. Above all it cements the proper adminsitration of the Gospel in todays world. It provides us with the framework for restoring the true church of Christ, with the proper structure of Prophets, Apostles and all other functionaries within the heirarchy of the Church as set forth by Christ in the New Testament.
     
  5. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,464
    Ratings:
    +96
    No I was not. I was baptized when I was twenty after years of throwing my life away. I've seen everything a life of indulgence and debauchery can offer, and then I found the truth. I studied many different religions, from Taoism to Christianity to Judaism and on, and became a somewhat spiritual person. After a while I read the Book of Mormon and the Spirit truly entered my life for the first time. I got baptized sonn thereafter and have been happier than ever ever since.
     
  6. Merlin

    Merlin Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2005
    Messages:
    810
    Ratings:
    +49
    Congratulations and good luck
     
  7. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,464
    Ratings:
    +96
    No, there are. It's just a little anecdote. Mormons rarely fight back against verbally, but this guy Kimball was notorious for cussing back at people. There will be more Mormons falling short of Celestial glory than enjoying it.
     
  8. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,464
    Ratings:
    +96
    Thank you.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,464
    Ratings:
    +96
    No one feels like taking a stab at my four pages of concrete evidence of the Book of Mormon? I find it humerous that so many people so concerned with helping me find the abundant evil inherent in my faith in Christ would balk at such a perfect opportunity to tear down my religion.
     
  10. Radar

    Radar Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2005
    Messages:
    365
    Ratings:
    +30
    No one cares and no one wants to tear down your religion. Believe what you want and stop looking for a fight.
     
  11. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    8,762
    Ratings:
    +604
    People care enough to tear down our religion when we don't have that much evidence at the beginning of a thread. Believe what you want, but there is always somebody wanting to tear down our religion.
     
  12. MdmSzdWhtGuy

    MdmSzdWhtGuy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2005
    Messages:
    1,373
    Ratings:
    +289
    All right Dan,

    Tho I am on record in this thread as having Mormon freinds, and like a lot about the family values and apparent happiness of many of your members, in the spirit of debate, I will say the Book of Mormon was dreamed up by Joseph Smith.

    Indians of the North American continent are not the lost tribe of Israel. DNA testing has proven there is no close ties betweeen American Indians and Jews. American Indians are most closely related on the DNA level to the peoples of Asia, such as the areas of China and Mongolia. This can be shown very easily, even in your day to day life, without the need for the DNA. Find a friend of Indian descent and look at his/her teeth. The back of their teeth will be scooped out, while a caucasion, jew, black or any other race will be smooth. Then find an Asian friend and look at the back of his/her teeth. They will also be scooped out. There is a reason for this. They are genetic cousins, so to speak.

    And re: the Book of Mormon being dreamed up by Joseph Smith, I say this because he could not produce the gold plates (prove me wrong here) and he couldn't accurately reproduce the story when asked.

    Happy debating.

    B.
     
  13. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    8,762
    Ratings:
    +604
    If you had read what jonny posted you would have seen the answer to your first argument.
     
  14. MdmSzdWhtGuy

    MdmSzdWhtGuy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2005
    Messages:
    1,373
    Ratings:
    +289
    If he said it in this thread then I missed it. I was able to find 2 responses from Johnny, and they were both in essence agreeing with the thread starter.

    B.
     
  15. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2005
    Messages:
    6,260
    Ratings:
    +639
  16. MdmSzdWhtGuy

    MdmSzdWhtGuy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2005
    Messages:
    1,373
    Ratings:
    +289
    OK, was unaware of the other thread, I will check it out. Where are the plates today?

    B.
     
  17. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,464
    Ratings:
    +96
    I appreciate your willingness to indulge me. On to the debating.

    You say DNA testing has proven no close ties between American Indians and Jews, which you conclude disproves the Book of Mormon. First I will address the DNA, and then the claim of the Book of Mormon.

    The research cited finds four DNA haplogroups in ancient Native Americans that are also found in certain Asian blood. These haplogroups are by no means exclusive to these two races, but are more prevelant in them. This means that it is likely that Asia is responsible for most of the inhabiting of the Americas. The Book of Mormon had nothing to do with these studies, and scientists who noticed the accusations quickly warned people against drawing any conclusions whatsoever about what the data means. The accusers, of course, ignored them.

    Studies done more recently than the one mentioned find a fifth group in Native Americans, nicknamed haplogroup X. I quote from a study done on haplogroup X:

    "Haplogroup X was different. It was spotted by Torroni in a small number of European populations. So the Emory group set out to explore the marker's source. They analyzed blood samples from Native American, European, and Asian populations and reviewed published studies. "We fully expected to find it in Asia," like the other four Native American markers, says Brown.

    "To their surprise, however, haplogroup X was only confirmed in the genes of a smattering of living people in Europe and Asia Minor, including Italians, Finns, and certain Israelis."


    Other haplogroups, including groups 4 and 1C, are common in Jewish peoples.

    Does this prove anything? Only that more research needs to be done. On to the Book of Mormon.

    The problem with the hasty conclusion is that the Book of Mormon nowhere claism that the three groups that came over from the middle east were the sole, or even principle, inhabiters of the Americas. As more evidence is extrapolated from the Book of Mormon it seems to point to other groups already being there in large numbers.

    As far as Joseph Smith being able to reproduce the story at will, that only proves to me more that he didn't make it up. If he had it would have been a little better memorized.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. DeepShadow

    DeepShadow White Crow

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2004
    Messages:
    2,928
    Ratings:
    +335
    Religion:
    Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
    I'd like to go back and address more of the questions put forward to Lehi on the witness stand, but in doing so I prefer to go back to the original source. Hugh Nibley, in his excellent book Lehi in the Desert, Chapter IV, Section III, concludes with "Lehi on the Witness Stand." His original text follows. It's my own formatting for easier reading, but the text is his:



    Some of these have already been dealt with, but I'll be looking at the ones that remain. If anyone has any requests, I'll move them to the top of my list. In the mean time, I'd like to address the issue of Lehi's Bedouin poetry, found in the above monologue as the following lines:

    The scriptural references in question are found in First Nephi 2:7-11, (with special emphasis on section in italics):

    7 And it came to pass that he built an altar of stones, and made an offering unto the Lord, and gave thanks unto the Lord our God.

    8 And it came to pass that he called the name of the river, Laman, and it emptied into the Red Sea; and the valley was in the borders near the mouth thereof.

    9 And when my father saw that the waters of the river emptied into the fountain of the Red Sea, he spake unto Laman, saying: O that thou mightest be like unto this river, continually running into the fountain of all righteousness!

    10 And he also spake unto Lemuel: O that thou mightest be like unto this valley, firm and steadfast, and immovable in keeping the commandments of the Lord!

    11 Now this he spake because of the stiffneckedness of Laman and Lemuel; for behold they did murmur in many things against their father, because he was a visionary man, and had led them out of the land of Jerusalem, to leave the land of their inheritance, and their gold, and their silver, and their precious things, to perish in the wilderness. And this they said he had done because of the foolish imaginations of his heart.[/QUOTE]


    Hugh Nibley lists seven criteria of a certain type of Semitic poetry (Nibley's sources listed in brackets):

    1) They are Brunnen- or Quellenlieder, as the Germans call them, that is, songs inspired by the sight of water gushing from a spring or running down a valley. [I. Goldziher, Abhandlungen zur arabischen Philologie (Leiden, 1896), I, 58.]

    2) They are addressed to one or (usually) two traveling companions. [P. Cersoy, "L'Apologue de la Vigne," Rev. Biblique (1899), 54f, n. 7.]

    3) They praise the beauty and the excellence of the scene, calling it to the attention of the hearer as an object lesson. [Goldziher, op. cit., I, 67-71.]

    4) The hearer is urged to be like the thing he beholds. [Gust. Richter, "Zur Entstehungsgeschichte der altarabischen Qaside," Deutsche Morgenland. Ges Ztschr. 92 (1939), p. 558.]

    5) The poems are recited extempore on the spot and with great feeling. [Goldziher, op. cit., pp. 59, 72-75.]

    6) They are very short, each couplet being a complete poem in itself. [Brockelmann, gesech. d. Arab. Lit. (Leipzig, 1909,) p. 12.]

    7) One verse must be followed by its "brother," making a perfectly matched pair. [Ibn Qutaiba, Muqaddamatu Kitab-i-sh-Shi're wa sh-Shu'ara (Introduction au Livre de la Poesie et des Poetes (ed. Gaudefroy-Demombynes, Paris, 1947), Pt. 23; cf. Goldziher, p. 74.]

    It appears that Lehi's couplet qualifies for all seven criteria, but you're welcome to debate it.
     
  19. FFH

    FFH Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Messages:
    12,063
    Ratings:
    +374
    I am a new member to religiousformums.com and your post was the first I have visited. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Looks like this type of medium will reach all those who would otherwise never step foot into a church of any kind. We need to share our faith and witness unto the world that the Fullnes of the Gospel of Jesus Christ has once again been restored to the Earth. I testify of this by the power of the Holy Ghost and in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to all that read this. The Book of Mormon is another witness of Jesus Christ along with the Bibile (as long as the King James version is translated correctly). These two witnesses , the Book of Mormon and the Bible testify of Christ and his ministry to both the old world (Jerusalem) and the new world (Americas). All who read this hear me now read the Book of Mormon yourselves and see if it does not prick your heart. I stand as a witness with Dan here on this subject that what he has said is true and correct.

    Michael Corbett
     
  20. FFH

    FFH Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Messages:
    12,063
    Ratings:
    +374
    In reply to MdrnSzdWhtGuy: Joseph Smith discovered the golden plates in A.D. 1823, by the help of angel Moroni, the last person to write on the plates and also the one who hid the plates in A.D. 421, in what is now called, the Hill Cumorah in Palmyra, New York. After the plates were translated into english, by the gift and power of God, the plates were then taken up into heaven by angel Moroni.

    [email protected]
     
Loading...