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Learned and Adapted Behaviors

nPeace

Veteran Member
I was having a discussion with a number of atheists recently, on the ability of animals to adapt from being carnivorous to herbivorous, and vica versa.
It is widely believed that a carnivore, such as a lion, cannot become a herbivore. I argue strongly against that belief.

I came across this article, which says in part...
Hippos eat meat too, not just plants.
Scientists have been getting this wrong about hippopotamus for years.


This after observing hippos "surprising diet" (see video ...may be disturbing).
...scientists have recently begun to uncover some exceptional behaviors that may change our view of animals again, especially their seemingly limited diet.

I wonder what @Alien826 and @Nimos think about this, in relation to other animals, including lions.
Could it be, we don't know as much as we think we do, and might it be that animals learn behaviors, and can adapt to fit those behaviors?
Can rapid changes take place in the body, to allow for adjustments taking place in the brain as well?

It's not only possible to me, but logical, and I think this example proves that.
 

Soandso

Well-Known Member
It's not just hippos. There are actually quite a few herbavores that supplement their diet with scavenged meat when they get the opportunity. Deer do this as well
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
There is a write up here, which shows why that cute video is not a very good experiment.

Just put the guy in the desert, or barren wilderness for a year, lets see if he will be eating apples and bananas. :)

Lions would die without food for a year...
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
My point is that your hypothetical doesn't make sense.
It doesn't?
So if you put the guy in a desert, or barren wilderness for a year, he would not be forced to feed on what's available, in order to survive, which may include a diet, that could result in adapting both in mind and body?
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
I wonder what @Alien826 and @Nimos think about this, in relation to other animals, including lions.
Could it be, we don't know as much as we think we do, and might it be that animals learn behaviors, and can adapt to fit those behaviors?
Can rapid changes take place in the body, to allow for adjustments taking place in the brain as well?

It's not only possible to me, but logical, and I think this example proves that.
I don't think that rapid changes like this are possible, in the sense that you have a lion evolving into a herbivore in a few generations. But it is not unthinkable that even lions eat certain plants as a supplement. As far as I know, cats for instance eat grass occasionally as well, but to think a cat would naturally go around eating grass like a cow for instance, I think would ultimately kill it or be unable to sustain it. But I don't know enough about lions to know whether they will occasionally do this as well. And not bothering to rewrite my reply :D I did a quick google search and it seems lions do in fact eat grass as well and are omnivores and do this to treat upset stomachs etc.

I wasn't surprised about the hippos eating meat as I have heard that before, but can't remember where, but was probably some nature program.
 

Exaltist Ethan

Bridging the Gap Between Believers and Skeptics
I think what you're describing is evolution.

I mean, there's nothing stopping a lion from eating a plant, or a hippo from eating another animal. Things change. They evolve. New ways of living become standard eventually. If an atheist argues this can't happen, you should remind them that they probably do in some degree believe in evolution.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I don't think that rapid changes like this are possible, in the sense that you have a lion evolving into a herbivore in a few generations. But it is not unthinkable that even lions eat certain plants as a supplement. As far as I know, cats for instance eat grass occasionally as well, but to think a cat would naturally go around eating grass like a cow for instance, I think would ultimately kill it or be unable to sustain it. But I don't know enough about lions to know whether they will occasionally do this as well. And not bothering to rewrite my reply :D I did a quick google search and it seems lions do in fact eat grass as well and are omnivores and do this to treat upset stomachs etc.

I wasn't surprised about the hippos eating meat as I have heard that before, but can't remember where, but was probably some nature program.
Thanks for putting in your two cents.
I already know what you think. You said it a hundred times, remember. ;)
I'm more interested in your thoughts regarding what the author said. Particularly... "...scientists have recently begun to uncover some exceptional behaviors that may change our view of animals again, especially their seemingly limited diet."

So, is it the case we know all we need to know, or are we willing to admit that maybe we don't know all we think we know, and there may be mechanisms, we don't really know about, nor understand.

That's what I am getting at really.
What position do you hold, in this case?

Do you know what hormones triggered by the brain, may play in rapid changes?
 

Dan From Smithville

What's up Doc?
Staff member
Premium Member
I was having a discussion with a number of atheists recently, on the ability of animals to adapt from being carnivorous to herbivorous, and vica versa.
It is widely believed that a carnivore, such as a lion, cannot become a herbivore. I argue strongly against that belief.

I came across this article, which says in part...
Hippos eat meat too, not just plants.
Scientists have been getting this wrong about hippopotamus for years.


This after observing hippos "surprising diet" (see video ...may be disturbing).
...scientists have recently begun to uncover some exceptional behaviors that may change our view of animals again, especially their seemingly limited diet.

I wonder what @Alien826 and @Nimos think about this, in relation to other animals, including lions.
Could it be, we don't know as much as we think we do, and might it be that animals learn behaviors, and can adapt to fit those behaviors?
Can rapid changes take place in the body, to allow for adjustments taking place in the brain as well?

It's not only possible to me, but logical, and I think this example proves that.
Actually, scientists have documented carnivory in hippos.

Dudley, J. P., Hang'Ombe, B. M., Leendertz, F. H., Dorward, L. J., de Castro, J., Subalusky, A. L., & Clauss, M. (2016). Carnivory in the common hippopotamus H ippopotamus amphibius: implications for the ecology and epidemiology of anthrax in A frican landscapes. Mammal Review, 46(3), 191-203.

Dudley, J. P. (1998). Reports of carnivory by the common hippo Hippopotamus amphibius. South African Journal of Wildlife Research-24-month delayed open access, 28(2), 58-59.

Dudley, J. P. (1996). Record of carnivory, scavenging and predation for Hippopotamus amphibius in Hwange National Park, Zimbabwe. Mammalia, 60(3), 486-488.

It is widely known that many, but by no means all, herbivores consume a small percentage of their dietary intake as animal protein. Usually as carrion or even accidentally. It has been long-recognized that white-tailed deer consume snails and insects while foraging for plant food with no apparent intention to do so.

This in no way lends any credence to the ridiculous belief that someone can turn lions or other similar predators into herbivores by training or deprivation. The physical and behavioral changes that would need to take place would require thousands of generations to occur naturally. I would imagine numerous mutations would be required and significant selection. They wouldn't be lions as we know them when it was all done.

I cannot think of a rational reason to consider lions could change their behavior and start eating grass or apples for food just because they were starved. Starving lions have been found you know.
 

Dan From Smithville

What's up Doc?
Staff member
Premium Member
Here's an article about how carnivores avoid dead carnivore carcasses.

Moleón, M., Martínez‐Carrasco, C., Muellerklein, O. C., Getz, W. M., Muñoz‐Lozano, C., & Sánchez‐Zapata, J. A. (2017). Carnivore carcasses are avoided by carnivores. Journal of Animal Ecology, 86(5), 1179-1191.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
It doesn't?
So if you put the guy in a desert, or barren wilderness for a year, he would not be forced to feed on what's available, in order to survive, which may include a diet, that could result in adapting both in mind and body?

Are we talking about "guys," ie humans, or lions?
 

Dan From Smithville

What's up Doc?
Staff member
Premium Member
I was having a discussion with a number of atheists recently, on the ability of animals to adapt from being carnivorous to herbivorous, and vica versa.
It is widely believed that a carnivore, such as a lion, cannot become a herbivore. I argue strongly against that belief.

I came across this article, which says in part...
Hippos eat meat too, not just plants.
Scientists have been getting this wrong about hippopotamus for years.


This after observing hippos "surprising diet" (see video ...may be disturbing).
...scientists have recently begun to uncover some exceptional behaviors that may change our view of animals again, especially their seemingly limited diet.

I wonder what @Alien826 and @Nimos think about this, in relation to other animals, including lions.
Could it be, we don't know as much as we think we do, and might it be that animals learn behaviors, and can adapt to fit those behaviors?
Can rapid changes take place in the body, to allow for adjustments taking place in the brain as well?

It's not only possible to me, but logical, and I think this example proves that.
What do you think would have to take place in lions in order for them to go from a diet of meat to one that consists of vegetable matter in a lions lifetime?
 
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