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LDS View on Free Will and an Omniscient God

nutshell

Well-Known Member
For my fellow LDSers.

We believe God is Omniscient, right?

We believe in free will, right?

How do we reconcile the two? If God knows everything then he knows what choices we're going to make. I understand the plan of salvation is for His glory and our progression, but if he already knows the outcome then how can we have free will? I don't know the outcome so I might have free will, but it seems it's only an illusion because if God already knows the outcome and if he is a perfect God and can't be wrong, then my choice is not what I chose, but what he already knows I will chose.
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
*bump*

LDS, if you can't answer the question(s) then I'll just open it up to the general RF.
 

Sola'lor

LDSUJC
If God already knows the outcome and if he is a perfect God and can't be wrong, then my choice is not what I chose, but what he already knows I will chose.

Because His knowledge doesn't determine what you will do. You determine what you will do. He simply sees the results of the actions you will take. Now if YOU knew everthing you were going to do that would be different. But trhen of course your knowledge of the future would factor into the actions you would take and at the same time if would be factored your knowledge of the future.
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
God is intelligence, He knows all possible outcomes for each and every one of us. He is all knowing because he has an eternity of knowledge and raising each of us up individually. We do not suprise God, we either make him delighted, or disappointed. We always have our free will. We have always had it even in the pre-existence. and we will always have it. Jonah was a prime example. he ran away because he did not want to do what God told him to. Had he no free will , he would have just done it.
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
Neither one of you have adequately addressed the question.

Free will means we have a choice. If God already knows the result, we don't really have a choice because we must choose as God knows we will.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
For my fellow LDSers.

We believe God is Omniscient, right?

We believe in free will, right?

How do we reconcile the two? If God knows everything then he knows what choices we're going to make. I understand the plan of salvation is for His glory and our progression, but if he already knows the outcome then how can we have free will? I don't know the outcome so I might have free will, but it seems it's only an illusion because if God already knows the outcome and if he is a perfect God and can't be wrong, then my choice is not what I chose, but what he already knows I will chose.
Well, from my perspective, God hasn't planned out every moment of our lives and therefore doesn't know every choice we're going to make. I believe instead that He has a perfect knowledge of who we are. Given that knowledge, He could predict -- with 100% accuracy -- if He were so inclined, what we would do if faced with any given set of circumstances. I kind of feel as if He intervenes to some extent, and arranges things so that we will have the experiences we need to grow, but I don't think we're just performing in a play that's already been written, if you know what I mean.
 

FFH

Veteran Member
How do we reconcile the two? If God knows everything then he knows what choices we're going to make. I understand the plan of salvation is for His glory and our progression, but if he already knows the outcome then how can we have free will? I don't know the outcome so I might have free will, but it seems it's only an illusion because if God already knows the outcome and if he is a perfect God and can't be wrong, then my choice is not what I chose, but what he already knows I will chose.
You're still choosing, whether God knows what choices you'll ultimately make or not, has no bearing or influence either way on the decisions we make.

How can knowing the choices one will make take away free agency. We are still free to choose.

There is no time with God, "all is as one day with the Lord" and "time is measured only unto man".
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
Well, from my perspective, God hasn't planned out every moment of our lives and therefore doesn't know every choice we're going to make. I believe instead that He has a perfect knowledge of who we are. Given that knowledge, He could predict, if He were so inclined, what we would do if faced with any given set of circumstances. I kind of feel as if He intervenes to some extent, and arranges things so that we will have the experiences we need to grow, but I don't think we're just performing in a play that's already been written, if you know what I mean.

Can you please clarify: do you believe God is omniscient or not?
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
You're still choosing, whether God knows what choices you'll ultimately make or not, has no bearing or influence either way on the decisions we make.

How can knowing the choices one will make take away free agency. We are still free to choose.

There is no time with God, "all is as one day with the Lord" and "time is measured only unto man".


We aren't choosing if we can't make a choice opposed to what God knows. The choice is "fixed."
 

FFH

Veteran Member
Well, from my perspective, God hasn't planned out every moment of our lives and therefore doesn't know every choice we're going to make. I believe instead that He has a perfect knowledge of who we are. Given that knowledge, He could predict, if He were so inclined, what we would do if faced with any given set of circumstances. I kind of feel as if He intervenes to some extent, and arranges things so that we will have the experiences we need to grow, but I don't think we're just performing in a play that's already been written, if you know what I mean.
This statement in red denies the existance of an all knowing God as is clearly explained to us in scripture.

Sorry to point that out, but God knows everything, including all the choices we've made, are making, or ever will make, that's scriptural for sure.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Sorry to point that out, but God knows everything, including all the choices we have made, are making, or ever will make, that's scriptural for sure.
Don't be sorry, FFH. I'm not. We just have a difference of opinion.
 

FFH

Veteran Member
We aren't choosing if we can't make a choice opposed to what God knows. The choice is "fixed."
No, it's not fixed at all, we still make the choice, God knows beforehand what choices we'll make and plans our lives accordingly so that we can experience the most amount of growth in this life.

It's no accident I'm here right now conversing in this thread. God knows every moment of our lives both past, present and future.

I've tested this out in the stock market, I trade stocks online. God knows all and sees all and anticipates our every move.

If God knows all then he knows what will happen at any given moment, given the free choices laid before every men.

It's amazing to think that we also can know the future. I've been amazed at what I can know beforehand if I focus enough of thoughts on God and his awesome power.

I use it all the time in the business I'm in to try an anticipate workers not showing up or by anticipating an extremely busy or slow day. I can prepare either way if I focus and ask God to help me out.

I can know whether or not to schedule someone or not to schedule someone. I can know if a person will or will not work out. It's amazing, we can tap into this same knowledge of the future which does not violate anyone's free agency, only reveals what men will do in the future and we can plan accordingly.

I don't need to kneel and pray, just ask him as if he were standing beside me, helping and guiding me.
 

FFH

Veteran Member
We can tap into that same knowledge that God has of any future event we choose to focus on. It comes as a quiet knowledge into the mind. I seeps in nearly unnoticeably, and only recognizeable if we are still and quiet. I literally have to "still" myself and calm myself down in order to listen to the whisperings of the Lord. Even warnings come as quiet warnings, which we need to heed.

I've had my share of warnings of future events, which I could have avoided, which came so quietly that I dismissed them until it was too late.
 

FFH

Veteran Member
Don't be sorry, FFH. I'm not. We just have a difference of opinion.
I know

I used to really be baffled by the whole knowledge of the future thing and how that works in with our free agency.

It takes a lot of pondering to figure that one out. Believe me I've had the same questions as Nutshell has posed in this thread. It took me a while to figure this particular scenario out.

How can God know our future and still allow us our free agency ???

Great thread Nutshell. We were all a bit speechless when you first started this thread, until now I guess.
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
Neither one of you have adequately addressed the question.

Free will means we have a choice. If God already knows the result, we don't really have a choice because we must choose as God knows we will.

yes i did, it is just like chess.

I may know what move you are going to make based on the position of the pieces, but a god chess player knows al the possible moves. that does not mean they force you to make the move, it just means they know all possibilities. I did address your question.
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
This is a popular philosophical riddle, and while there are few logical solutions to the paradox, one appeals best to me WRT my LDS upbringing.

First, God's vision doesn't force our actions, anymore than someone seeing a car wreck makes it happen. This is true even if the person knows ahead of time that the wreck is going to happen...as long as they can't/don't tell anyone who can prevent the wreck. If communication is cut off, then the person can observe the future without causing it to happen, but if they try to change it, then their "perfect vision" of the future creates a paradox, because the future is already set for that event.

This may partially explain why God is so limited in what He can tell us.
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
Free will means we have a choice. If God already knows the result, we don't really have a choice because we must choose as God knows we will.

I think I know what you are trying to say, but you've stated a bigger paradox: God sees our choices in future, which dictates the choices, which dictates what he sees....

We need to assign a cause and an effect. Either God's vision dictates what we do, or what we do dictates His vision. The latter is more in line with what we know of cause and effect, but it still creates a paradox if God tells us what we are going to do ahead of time...which He doesn't.

For an example of this, consider what happened with the 116 page manuscript. God knew what was going to happen, but He didn't cause it. He arranged things with Mormon so that it all worked out, but Joseph Smith hadn't read that far yet, and thus didn't know that God knew his actions. No paradox.
 

Sola'lor

LDSUJC
Free will means we have a choice. If God already knows the result, we don't really have a choice because we must choose as God knows we will.

It's not that we are required and forced to choose those things because God knows it. God simply knows what choices we will use our free will to make. Choices we won't make are irrelevent because we won't make them.
 
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