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Featured LDS Church Makes 'Surprise' Change on LGBT Issues

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by idea, Apr 4, 2019.

  1. Prestor John

    Prestor John Well-Known Member

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    I am a Latter-day Saint and I don't see how anyone could view these policy changes as an admittance of any "past mistake" and I do not believe the previous policies were made in error.

    For example, when the Church of Christ was first formed two thousand years ago, the members of the Church at that time followed the Law of Consecration, where they had all things in common.

    Does the fact that Christian churches do not follow this practice today mean that the original Church had made a mistake? Or that all Christian churches that do not follow this law are not correct?

    No, that is not the case, because the Lord gives to the Church what it and the world can handle and will add and take away based on the needs of His people.

    Another example, plural marriage was practiced by early Latter-day Saints, but not today. Does that mean someone made a mistake or did the Lord make an allowance based on the needs of His people?

    Another example would be the practice of abortion. Even though the act is the murder of an unborn child, those who commit such a sin are not branded murderers by the Church or the Lord, because they have been brainwashed into thinking that the not-yet-born are inhuman parasites.

    So, in regards to this issue, the Church did nothing wrong when they made their previous policies of not baptizing the children of same-sex married couples and considering the practice of same-sex marriage as apostasy.

    Notice in the new announcement when it is said,

    "While we cannot change the Lord’s doctrine, we want our members and our policies to be considerate of those struggling with the challenges of mortality."

    "Previously, our handbook characterized same-gender marriage by a member as apostasy. While we still consider such a marriage to be a serious transgression, it will not be treated as apostasy for purposes of Church discipline."

    "These changes do not represent a shift in Church doctrine related to marriage or the commandments of God in regard to chastity and morality. The doctrine of the plan of salvation and the importance of chastity will not change."

    The doctrine has not changed.

    Heterosexual sexual relations outside of marriage is still sinful.

    Homosexual sexual relations of any kind are still sinful.

    Entering into a "same-sex marriage" is still considered a "serious transgression" but will not warrant Church discipline, which is similar to the Church's policy concerning abortion.

    Our society has been so brainwashed into believing that the not-yet-born are inhuman parasites, that homosexuality is superior to heterosexuality and that all kinds of sexual activity outside of marriage is the norm that the Lord feels that He can no longer judge us according to His ideal standards.

    This and future generations really have no chance to avoid these tactics of Satan.

    The Lord Jesus Christ lived and associated with all kinds of people. Saints and sinners. Yet, He turned no one away. Even though He did not agree with what everyone was doing and knew that they would one day be judged according to what they did and the knowledge they had, He loved them anyway.

    That is all we can do.
     
  2. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

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    LDSers do not claim leaders are infallible, and yet... they treat leaders and the past as if it were infallible.


    Here are some Biblical examples:

    Math 14:19 → the apostles made a mistake - forbid children from coming to Jesus. But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come to me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

    The apostles → could not walk on water, could not heal everyone, did not understand what was happening half the time - they denied Christ, could not stay awake one hour - betrayed Jesus with a kiss - that was an "apostle" and I vew the current apostles in the same light as the originals - from Judas to Peter. After Jesus dies, Paul and Peter are at odds with one another - different things being taught from all of them - same thing now.

    forbid them not → the original apostles messed up, and the current apostles also messed up when they said "LGBTQ children should not come to church and be baptized etc. etc.) → it was a mistake. Denying Blacks the priesthood was a mistake. Polygamy, polyandry, burning down the press and attacking local innocent townspeople who held different beliefs - a huge mistake... sending people out on a trek without adequate supplies leading to 1/3 people killed from bad leadership? mistakes.

    Church leaders are not perfect - agree
    Church leaders make mistake - follows from church leaders not being perfect
    Church leaders should admit and apologize for mistakes - this needs to happen. Confession is part of the repentance process, Christianity is based on repentance and confession. If I see people too proud to confess and repent, that is NOT Christian, and not something to follow or trust.

    The original apostles repented, said "I'm sorry", showed remorse for their mistakes. The current "apostles" have never done this, so I do not think they are real "apostles". ...
     
  3. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    I WAS a member for 5 years, and I still know folks who are members whom I consider friends. I'm not part of the LGBT group, and have not engaged in what they would consider immoral conduct. Their "Stake President and Bishops Manual" states in several places that anyone who has had a voluntary surgical gender change will not get a Temple Recommend. As it turns out, I am Intersex. There was a surgery when I was born, and another later in life. Neither surgery were voluntary. I consider myself neither male nor female but meet the requirements of Matt 19:12 and Isaiah 56:4-5. My disagreement with the LDS was never about a Temple Recommend, but simply about the correct interpretation of Scripture. Instead, they come up with the lame excuse that the scripture is not interpreted correctly.

    At this point, I feel like the LDS killed any belief in religion for me. It was the last straw. At this point it would take Jesus or God jerking me by the ear to go back to one. I won't tell you the whole story, but I've had enough.

    I still believe in and seek to obey God, and I think that satan has gotten into the religions and made them filled with suffering and self condemnation.
     
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  4. Prestor John

    Prestor John Well-Known Member

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    I'm not going to reply to all the examples from the scriptures because I feel that they are "beside the point".

    You were also being both overly critical of these men and are oversimplifying the position of the Church.

    Even those with very basic knowledge of LDS history would know that we understand that anyone can make mistakes.

    The Doctrine and Covenants records huge mistakes made by the Prophet Joseph Smith which led to the Lord rebuking him.

    Many early Apostles were excommunicated for various reasons and a lot of them eventually came back to the Church.

    We recognize that any member of the Church can make mistakes.

    However, we do believe that when the Prophets and Apostles receive revelation or direction through the process prescribed by the Lord, what they say is the Lord's will.

    The original policy had by the Church was not a mistake so there is no need to apologize.

    There will be many more trials had by the Church before the Lord comes again.

    The Lord is using this time to test and try His people.
     
  5. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    You have no factual evidence to support your statements!:rolleyes:
     
  6. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    There is actually plenty of evidence to support some of the statements Prestor John made. He also made some statements which are simply his opinion, and you can't really expect to find "factual evidence" to support a subjective opinion. Which statements specifically, would you like to see evidence for?
     
  7. Prestor John

    Prestor John Well-Known Member

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    Which statements are your referring to?
     
  8. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    Produce some factual evidence!
     
  9. Prestor John

    Prestor John Well-Known Member

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    Of what?
     
  10. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

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    It is not clear when apostles are speaking from revelation, and when they are not.
     
  11. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

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    It is sometimes hard to seperate a belief in God from experiences within religious organizations. I'm going with SBNA now - spiritual but not affiliated. Hopefully there is a loving God who wants personal, individual connections with each of us - no middle men or women in the way. Imperfect messengers guide individuals to seek guidance directly from the source. The more flawed the messenger, the more independent and spiritually self- reliant everyone becomes. Blessings on your journey Ellen Brown.
     
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  12. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    It's on an as needed basis and only those who have a need to know... Did you know the President can overrule the Bible?
     
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  13. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

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    Haha - no one can over- rule anything of course. How did I allow myself to stay with that group so long? Aww well - there is a greater appreciation of freedom for having gone through it I suppose :D
     
  14. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    You're to be so admired for your strength, courage and long-suffering. Words simply fair me, other than to say that I stand in awe.
     
    #134 Katzpur, Jul 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
  15. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Yup. Just as biblical prophets overruled past prophets. But, as far as the LDS prophet overruling the Bible, do you know how many times that has actually happened over our nearly 200-year history?
     
  16. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Hmmm. I can and do.
     
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  17. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    I stayed with them 5 years, and only left because they kept drum beating about worthiness. How do they have the right to say who is worthy?
     
  18. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    They did it when I was there. I quoted matt 19:12, and Deut 56:4-5 and they said that I had incorrectly interpreted the Bible.
     
  19. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

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    It is a manipulative power-play that quite a few religious organizations use unfortunately.

    Spiritual self-reliance is so important for everyone. No borrowed light, no middle-men - we all have a conscience and a direct line to God. Everything we have, are, and do is between us and God. I'm in a mixed faith family which is a delicate thing to balance - the kids all know they define their own worthiness - not some old guy. They have their own authority over their thoughts, beliefs, and body - not some old guy. There are good things in the church - friends, parables, so long as you keep everything in perspective - just like you can go to college and not agree with administrators, you can go to church and not agree with the bishop etc.
     
  20. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Sorry, Ellen, you lost me there. You're going to have to be more specific.
     
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