LDS beliefs and the Bible

[Fish-Hunter]

Hello,

I have basically focused on Fish-Hunter's posts in this thread. I have been critical of a general sloppiness and failure to give any type of wherefore for many of his charges: example, and example. I have also noted a fundamental category mistake in his stance that undercuts the whole tenor of his postion: post. Even so, I noted this statement at the head of your challenge: "Due to the extremely annoying level of anti-mormonism eminating from the lips of Fish-Hunter i will challenge him to a 1 on 1 about how the LDS view the Bible so he will shut up." Fish-Hunter believes his view is the correct one and Mormonism is flawed. He is also passionate about his views. I think that is fine, a free exchange of ideas is a good thing. For what it's worth, I don't think Fish-Hunter intends to be annoying, nor does he strike me as any kind of bigot or a nasty fellow.

Well, thank you! We share because we believe what we believe. We share for the obedience and love for the God we know. We share for the privlidge and the joy of it. Why do you think Jesus endured the cross? The answer is found in Hebrews?

 

[Fish-Hunter]

I agree. While attempting to debate with him may be like talking to a brick wall, he has not been overly antagonistic or hateful. But I guess we, me and Orontes, are more accustomed to extremely more vehement posters than Fish-Hunter.

Thank you for the kind words too. :rainbow1:

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Here's a question, Do you believe the entire bible to be the word of God or do you believe that only the 13 Episltes are the word of God.

and if you believe that only the 13 epistles rather than the whole bible is the word of God, why do you believe there would have been more written?

also, feel free to check out the 1on 1 so that i can clarify what you think about how our church regards the bible. thanks.

I believe the entire Bible is the Word of God. The 13 Epistles of Paul should be understood in light and context of the entire Bible. A major theme would be the glory of God through redemptive history throughout the Old Testament and Nw Testament alike. However, I have focused on the 13 Epistles of Paul to narrow our discsussion on the gospel of God's grace. It's rather difficult fo all of us to concentrate on various topics and have a meaningful discussion. I believe Christ and Him crucified is the central theme of Christianity to the praise and glory of God.

 

[Katzpur]

We are saved by grace alone through the instrument of faith alone.

Gotcha. And would that be a dead faith or a living faith? Would it, in other words, be a faith made perfect by works?

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Gotcha. And would that be a dead faith or a living faith? Would it, in other words, be a faith made perfect by works?

I knew you could not resist James chapter 2. :drool:

James and Paul both use the word justification too. Are you using James chapter 2 to understand Paul's 13 letters? Or, are you using the 13 Epistles of Paul to understand James chapter 2? We know apparent contradictions in the Bible are due to our own spiritual blindness. God cannot contradict Himself, because God is perfect and we are not. I love the work of the Apostle James too.

Ephesians 2 - Paul -Made Alive in Christ

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

James 2 -Faith and Deeds

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

 

[Katzpur]

I knew you could not resist James chapter 2. :drool:

Is there some reason why I should try? I do my best to resist being tempted by anything that I believe is wrong. Are you suggesting that I add reading James to my list of things I should try to resist?

Are you using James chapter 2 to understand Paul's 13 letters? Or, are you using the 13 Epistles of Paul to understand James chapter 2?

Neither. I am using both of them to understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Is there some reason why I should try? I do my best to resist being tempted by anything that I believe is wrong. Are you suggesting that I add reading James to my list of things I should try to resist?

Neither. I am using both of them to understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

That's great. Should I assume you agree with lds.org in the proclamation of the gospel?

Mormon.org - God is your loving Heavenly Father

 

[Katzpur]

That's great. Should I assume you agree with lds.org in the proclamation of the gospel?

Mormon.org - God is your loving Heavenly Father

You haven't figured that out yet?

 

[DeepShadow]

That's great. Should I assume you agree with lds.org in the proclamation of the gospel?

Mormon.org - God is your loving Heavenly Father

Okay, this is what gives you a bad rep. It looks like a bait-and-switch, but could be better understood as merely an awkward way to change the subject.

We agree with the things stated on Mormon.org, but the link you provided is not about proclaiming the gospel. Are you done with the previous topic?

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Okay, this is what gives you a bad rep. It looks like a bait-and-switch, but could be better understood as merely an awkward way to change the subject.

We agree with the things stated on Mormon.org, but the link you provided is not about proclaiming the gospel. Are you done with the previous topic?

Hi DeepShadow,

I am not really concerned about my reputation on this site...not much of a people pleaser because the message of the cross is hostile to the flesh. The Apostle Paul was stoned and beaten for proclaiming the gospel of God's grace. Therefore, being called names by some of the LDS Christians does not bother me. I'm sorry that my link of mormon.org is not what you are looking for. I am simply trying to define the Mormon version of the gospel of God. Could you provide the offical link of the gospel according to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? I am still on the topic of the biblical gospel according to the Apostle Paul, unless all of the LDS Christians admit that the Mormon version of the gospel cannot be supported by the writings of Paul. The gospel described by grace alone through faith alone on the basis of the person and work of Christ alone is documented by the writings of Paul. In addition, Paul clearly states that water baptism does not save us. If you disagree, please provide Scriptures from the Apostle Paul to refute what I have stated.

I'm out of the office this week in the field in a nice hotel overlooking the ocean with a good Internet Wi Fi connection. Therefore, I have time in the evenings to discuss these important issues. Can the official LDS proclamation of the gospel be supported by the Apostle Paul?

Galatians 4:16:
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Paul and the Holy Bible

However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace. - Acts 20:24: - Paul

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Hi DeepShadow,

I am not really concerned about my reputation on this site...not much of a people pleaser because the message of the cross is hostile to the flesh. The Apostle Paul was stoned and beaten for proclaiming the gospel of God's grace. Therefore, being called names by some of the LDS Christians does not bother me. I'm sorry that my link of mormon.org is not what you are looking for. I am simply trying to define the Mormon version of the gospel of God. Could you provide the offical link of the gospel according to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? I am still on the topic of the biblical gospel according to the Apostle Paul, unless all of the LDS Christians admit that the Mormon version of the gospel cannot be supported by the writings of Paul. The gospel described by grace alone through faith alone on the basis of the person and work of Christ alone is documented by the writings of Paul. In addition, Paul clearly states that water baptism does not save us. If you disagree, please provide Scriptures from the Apostle Paul to refute what I have stated.

I'm out of the office this week in the field in a nice hotel overlooking the ocean with a good Internet Wi Fi connection. Therefore, I have time in the evenings to discuss these important issues. Can the official LDS proclamation of the gospel be supported by the Apostle Paul?

Galatians 4:16:
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Paul and the Holy Bible

However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace. - Acts 20:24: - Paul

A signature from Scott, an LDS Christian:

"The primitive gospel, in its effulgence and power, is yet to shine out in its original splendor to regenerate the world" - Alexander Campbell

I assume Mr. Campbell is an LDS Christian. Am I correct to understand Mr. Campbell does not agree or embrace the Apostle Paul's proclamation of the gospel of God's grace found in the Holy Bible? It almost appears that Mr. Campbell does not believe God is sovereign in this world. Does Mr. Campbell believe in that the sovereignty of sinful man is defeating God? Or, does Mr. Campbell believe that Satan is more powerful than God? These are all gospel related issues because Paul's gospel is powerful and effective.

Romans 1:16-18: - Paul and the Holy Bible

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,

 

[silvermoon383]

You don't know who Alexander Campbell is?

 

[lmnmom]

A signature from Scott, an LDS Christian:

"The primitive gospel, in its effulgence and power, is yet to shine out in its original splendor to regenerate the world" - Alexander Campbell

I assume Mr. Campbell is an LDS Christian. Am I correct to understand Mr. Campbell does not agree or embrace the Apostle Paul's proclamation of the gospel of God's grace found in the Holy Bible? It almost appears that Mr. Campbell does not believe God is sovereign in this world. Does Mr. Campbell believe in that the sovereignty of sinful man is defeating God? Or, does Mr. Campbell believe that Satan is more powerful than God? These are all gospel related issues because Paul's gospel is powerful and effective.

Romans 1:16-18: - Paul and the Holy Bible

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,

No, Alexander Campbell was not an LDS Christian. He was a leader in the Second Great Awakening of the religious movement referred to as the Restoration. (Or Stone-Campbell Movement.) Alexander Campbell (Restoration movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) Mr. Campbell died over a hundred years ago too, so you can stop referring to him in present tense. (Why, oh why, didn't you go figure this out for yourself before making assumptive statements??)

 

[madhatter85]

Hi DeepShadow,

I am not really concerned about my reputation on this site...not much of a people pleaser because the message of the cross is hostile to the flesh. The Apostle Paul was stoned and beaten for proclaiming the gospel of God's grace. Therefore, being called names by some of the LDS Christians does not bother me. I'm sorry that my link of mormon.org is not what you are looking for. I am simply trying to define the Mormon version of the gospel of God. Could you provide the offical link of the gospel according to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? I am still on the topic of the biblical gospel according to the Apostle Paul, unless all of the LDS Christians admit that the Mormon version of the gospel cannot be supported by the writings of Paul. The gospel described by grace alone through faith alone on the basis of the person and work of Christ alone is documented by the writings of Paul. In addition, Paul clearly states that water baptism does not save us. If you disagree, please provide Scriptures from the Apostle Paul to refute what I have stated.

I'm out of the office this week in the field in a nice hotel overlooking the ocean with a good Internet Wi Fi connection. Therefore, I have time in the evenings to discuss these important issues. Can the official LDS proclamation of the gospel be supported by the Apostle Paul?

Galatians 4:16:
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? - Paul and the Holy Bible

However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace. - Acts 20:24: - Paul

Of course it can and is completely supported by the epistles which you fail at recognizing.

are you so blind and stubborn you refuse to answer my questions?

 

[Fish-Hunter]

No, Alexander Campbell was not an LDS Christian. He was a leader in the Second Great Awakening of the religious movement referred to as the Restoration. (Or Stone-Campbell Movement.) Alexander Campbell (Restoration movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) Mr. Campbell died over a hundred years ago too, so you can stop referring to him in present tense. (Why, oh why, didn't you go figure this out for yourself before making assumptive statements??)

OHH...the Church of Christ and restoration theology too... I have friends from the Church of Christ that I debate with at a Christian forum site. They are similar like you (LDS) in the sense of restoration theology, baptismal regeneration, and the rejection of justification by faith alone. On this Christian site, I tell them that Mormons are Christians too. I tell them that you are LDS Christians. And guess what, nobody agrees with me, and fight me over calling you guys LDS Christians. I liked the first great awakening with Jonathan Edwards, Whitefield and company. The second great awakening is another story with Finney, Cambell, etc. Didn't Mormonism start at the time of the second great awakening?

 

[Arrow]

i am assuming that this debate has gone more into whether or not LDS is Christian. If i am wrong then pay no attention to me and i apologize for butting in.
Anyway, i just had a question requarding the whole thing. Does the Bible trump the Book of Mormon or does the Book of Mormon trump the Bible? Or is it that the two books stand so close together that the Book of Mormon is really more of a commentary of the Bible? I am just curious and trying to get my bearings.

Thank you

 

[Sola'lor]

i am assuming that this debate has gone more into whether or not LDS is Christian. If i am wrong then pay no attention to me and i apologize for butting in.
Anyway, i just had a question requarding the whole thing. Does the Bible trump the Book of Mormon or does the Book of Mormon trump the Bible? Or is it that the two books stand so close together that the Book of Mormon is really more of a commentary of the Bible? I am just curious and trying to get my bearings.

Thank you

We believe that they are equal. They support each other. They aren't commentaries because they take place in two different places. Both the Bible and the Book of Mormon point to Jesus Christ as our Saviour.

 

[Arrow]

If they are equal then what need is there for the Book of Mormon and what gives the Book of Mormon the same status as the Bible?

The New Testament abolishes the old covenant in the Old Testament because it was incomplete. The only reason i see for the Book of Mormon coming into existence would to do the same, yet i do not see how this could be possible considering the covenant of the New Testament is perfect through Christ. There is no other book that does this; thus the Bible could have no equal only commentaries or things written about it to maybe get some attempted (because we are human) clarification.

I hope that argument made sense.

thanks

 

[SoyLeche]

The New Testament abolishes the old covenant in the Old Testament because it was incomplete. The only reason i see for the Book of Mormon coming into existence would to do the same

Your main problem is that your sample size is too small. The reasons the NT came around in no way define the reasons the BoM should or should not come forth. Extrapolating from a sample of 2 is dicey at best, and going to lead to the wrong conclusion almost every time.

Try and look at it less like "the BoM being added to the Bible" and more like "The books of Nephi, Alma, etc. being added to the books of Joshua, Hosea, the 1st Epistle of Peter, etc".

 

[Arrow]

As someone who has to love statistics, i love the argument.

If this is the case though, why were they not added at the same time? Why the need for another book after the Holy Spirit had been sent to reveal the truth Himself?