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Law or Grace; Can you have God's Grace without God's Law?

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
While I can most certainly learn from the OT (Rom 15:4), I am nonetheless left out in the cold when it comes to God's covenant with Israel. I'm no more part of that contract than I am with Tom Brady's contract with the New England Patriots. I might wish I was, but I'm not. Please don't misconstrue this as saying I don't believe in the OT. As Romans 15:4 says, I can certainly learn from it, a boat load of learning in fact, but learning about it does not make me a party to it. I can learn plenty of things from Tom Brady's contract, but it does little to actually increase my bank account level. But on the other hand, I don't get the bruising either!

As shown above we are not a part of the old covenant anymore we are living in the new covnenant. The temple was rent in two at the death of JESUS *MATTHEW 27:51 signifying no more animal sacrifices for forgiveness of sin and the changing of the Priesthood. Our great high priest is now JESUS who ministers on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary not made with hands of which the earlthy was only a copy *HEBREWS 7; HEBREWS 8; HEBREWS 9 and HEBREWS 10

But even if I didn't confess them, I'm still born again of incorruptible seed.

I agree with most of what you posted before this sentance so will just comment briefly on this.
To be born again of incorruptible seed simply means to be changed from the inside to live in newness of life by faith (believing) God's Word. The incorruptible seed = the Word of God * Check these scriptures out...1 PETER 1:21; LUKE 8:11; PSALMS 119:11 - saving faith is believing it *EPHESIANS 2:8-9; JOHN 3:15-21. We are told in the scriptures... "IF we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness *1 JOHN 1:9 For me I believe that the scriptures promise here of forgiveness is conditionsal "IF" on us confessing our sins. This is also repeated elswhere in the scriptures for example...PROVERBS 28:13 He that covers his sins shall not prosper: but whoever confesses and forsakes them shall have mercy. When JESUS taught us how to pray... MATTHEW 6:12 forgive us our sins, as we have forgiven those who sin against us. It seems to me here that the scriptures teach us that it is not God's will that we sin but if any man sin we have an advocate with the father JESUS Christ the righteous *1 JOHN 2:3-4 and this is conditional on us also confessing our sins and forsaking them *1 JOHN 1:9; PROVERBS 28:13; 1 JOHN 3:6-9; 1 JOHN 2:3-4

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3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
3rdAngel wrote: Are christians now free to sin (break God's Law)? I do not believe the scriptures teach this.
Your response...
A few folks asked Paul the same question about being free to sin. I defer to his answer in Romans chapters 6 and 7. I think they are plain enough.
This did not answer the question asked of you here and Romans 6 and Romans 7 do not say Christians are free to sin. In fact if you add all three chapters and include Romans 8 it says Christians have died to sin (breaking God's Commandments) and have been raised to newness of life to walk in the Spirit *ROMANS 8:1-4; 13. This only supports what I was sharing with you earlier in regards to God's new covenant promise to love by a new heart by faith through the operation of God to those who believe and follow his Word *HEBREWS 8:10-12; 1 JOHN 3:6-10. According to the scriptures sin (knowingly and habbitually breaking any one of God's 10 commandments) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:6-10.
I'll answer this with the caveat that I'm not 100% sure what you mean by shadow laws. I looked it up in a concordance and didn't see any verses that mention such things, but maybe I've just not heard that term before. Hebrews 10:1 is speaking specifically to the sacrifices and feasts of Israel. However it is quite possible that, by the figure of speech metonomy, it is speaking to the whole law. In any case, I don't see how anything I said goes against that either.

Thanks for being honest Rob. I have spent a little time here so will share with you my understanding from one brother to another..

Most of the old covenant laws (including circumcision) from the Mosaic book of the covenant *EXODUS 24:7 for remission of sin are shadow laws pointed to JESUS as the coming Messiah and the new covenant of God's LAW being written on the heart through faith in God's Word by the operation of God *JEREMIAH 31:31-34; COLOSSIANS 2:12. The shadow laws of the old covenant include the laws for remission of sin such as animal sacrifices for sin offerings; the Sanctuary ceremionial laws, the Levitical Priesthood which are all fulfilled in Christ.

You can read about the shadow laws in more detail in HEBREWS 7; HEBERWS 8; HEBREWS 9 and HEBREWS 10 and specifically here...

HEBREWS 8:1-5
[1], Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
[2], A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. [3], For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: why it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
[4], For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
[5], WHO SERVE TO THE EXAMPLE AND SHADOW OF HEAVENLY THINGS, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, said he, that you make all things according to the pattern showed to you in the mount.

Many laws from the MOSAIC book of the old covenant according to the scriptures are shadows of heavenly things in the new covenant. Here it is talking about the earthly Sanctuary being a copy of the heavenly and the work of Christ as our true high Priest.

HEBREWS 9:1-12
[1], THEN TRULY THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALSO ORDINANCES OF DIVINE SERVICE, AND A WORLDLY SANCTUARY.
[2], For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the show bread; which is called the sanctuary.
[3], And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
[4], Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
[5], And over it the cherubim of glory shadowing the mercy seat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
[6], Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
[7], But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
[8], The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
[9], WHICH WAS A FIGURE FOR THE TIME THEN PRESENT, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
[10], Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
[11], But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
[12], NEITHER BY THE BLOOD OF GOATS AND CALVES, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD HE ENTERED IN ONCE INTO THE HOLY PLACE, HAVING OBTAINED ETERNAL REDEMPTION FOR US.

This is speaking specifically of the SHADOWS LAWS FOR REMISSION OF SIN FROM THE MOSIAC BOOK OF THE OLD COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7 here…

HEBREWS 10:1-7
[1], FOR THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW OF GOOD THINGS TO COME, and not the very image of the things, can never WITH THOSE SACRIFICES which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
[2], For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
[3], But in THOSE SACRIFICES there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
[4], FOR IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.
[5], Why when he comes into the world, he said, Sacrifice and offering you would not, but a body have you prepared me:
[6], In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you have had no pleasure.
[7], THEN SAID I, SEE, I COME IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME, TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.

This is all part of God's new covenant promise first given in JEREMIAH 31:31-34 and repeated by PAUL in HEBREWS 8:10-12. This is why I believe we are in the new covnenant now. Read HEBREWS chapters 7-10 this is a good study. I hope you get a blessing spending some time in the books of HEBREWS as I have.

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3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
If you are suggesting we might loose our salvation by sinning, I'd be curious as to how many sins we are allotted before loosing that salvation. Is it a matter of quantity or quality? Is there any way to be sure about the allotted number of sins, or do we just have to worry about it until Jesus returns?

Rob, I believe that the scriptures teach, we will not lose our salvation if we continue in the faith believing and following God's Word to the end confessing and forsaking our sins. Our salvation however, I believe is conditional on us believing and following God's Word (always present tense). This is what it means to "abide in Christ" *JOHN 15:1-5; 1 JOHN 3:6. If we sin willfilly after we receive a knowledge of the truth of God's Word and continue in sin there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come *ACTS 17:30; HEBREWS 10:26-27. It is not God's will that we sin but if any man sin (break any one of God's 10 commandments) we have an advocate with the Farther *1 JOHN 2:1

And blessings right back to ya!

You too Rob nice talking to you. I have probably shared a lot here. I pray you may take some time to examine from the scriptures what I am sharing so there is no misunderstandings. Thanks for sharing Rob.

blessings.:)
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
Hello all.

I thought this would be an interesting topic for discussion. How can you have God's grace if there is not law that gives us the knowledge of good and evil? If we do not know that we are all sinners how can we see our need of a Saviour?

According to God's word, ALL those who continue in known unrepentant sin will not enter into the kingdom of heaven *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23.

Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved it is the fruit of God's work in us as we believe and follow his word. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

We are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8. We are all sick with sin and need a Physician *MATTHEW 9:12-13. If we do not know we are sick why would we seek a physician?

.............

Many people seem to be of the view that Grace is separate from obedience to God's Law (10 commandments). Is this true and how can you have Grace without law if the laws that we have broken lead to or demonstrate Gods' Grace?

Some questions for consideration...

Q1. What is grace for?
Q2. Can we have grace in the new covenant without God's law?
Q2. Can we have God's grace in the new covenant without God's Law?
Q3. What part does God's law have in grace?

..............

*Friendly discussion please; Please provided scirpture for your claims if you can.

God bless you all
you overlooked a definition for ….grace

which means to allow

and with or without a law
you come and go as God allows it

see Day Six of Genesis as compared to Chapter Two
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
you overlooked a definition for ….grace

which means to allow

and with or without a law
you come and go as God allows it

see Day Six of Genesis as compared to Chapter Two

Hi theif, thanks for sharing although I have not overlooked the definition of grace as the OP is only asking questions did you wish to have a go at addressing them? Nice to see you and welcome here :)
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Hi theif, thanks for sharing although I have not overlooked the definition of grace as the OP is only asking questions did you wish to have a go at addressing them? Nice to see you and welcome here :)
ok...moving to it......

I read the Day Six narrative literally
male and female....no names
go forth be fruitful and multiply......no garden
dominate all things......no law

Man as a species
sent out into this world by the allowance of God

but we lacked grace

so.....Day Six
Adam is a chosen son of God
Eve is a clone...Adam's twin sister
and the forbidden fruit was only a test

they passed

and then released into the environment
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
ok...moving to it......

I read the Day Six narrative literally
male and female....no names
go forth be fruitful and multiply......no garden
dominate all things......no law

Man as a species
sent out into this world by the allowance of God

but we lacked grace

so.....Day Six
Adam is a chosen son of God
Eve is a clone...Adam's twin sister
and the forbidden fruit was only a test

they passed

and then released into the environment

Hi Theif, thanks although if you did not wish to address the OP you did not have to :)
 
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