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Featured Law or Grace; Can you have God's Grace without God's Law?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by 3rdAngel, Jan 3, 2020.

  1. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    No, you’re asking questions as a ploy. It won’t work. You can at least be honest about what you’re doing.
     
  2. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Yet you want to subject people who know more than you to cheap Sunday school lectures.

    Asked and answered above.

    See above. I gave my response. If you wish to discuss the points in that response, rather than simply dismiss them as “confusion,” I may be happy to do so. Otherwise, my post stands as-is, and if you don’t want to respond equitably, one has to wonder why you asked for responses in the first place.
     
  3. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    I see and what ploy would that be and how is having a discussion on Law and Grace not being honest in your view? o_O
     
  4. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    Maybe the mods can move it to Christianity then.
     
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  5. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    You prefaced the questions with a snarky comment suggesting that I’m “confused.” I assure you I am not. The questions are a head game, and have nothing to do with “having a discussion.” I gave you a forthright answer to your OP and you responded with snark. This leads me to the conclusion that you don’t want to “have a discussion.” That’s not honest. Had you replied with genuinely interested questions, I should have happily answered them.
     
  6. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    No need, you are welcome to provide your view if you like.
     
  7. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Well that is not true. I am interested in a discussion. How did your post answer anything in the OP? The OP is asking can you separate law from Grace. Your post did not give me your view and why in relation to the questions asked. Please read the OP and your response.
     
  8. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Here are a few of the questions you asked:
    My answers to those questions are in my post. To paraphrase:
    Gentiles are not beholden to the Judaic Law. Grace is extended to us anyway.
    The essence of the Law is love. Those who abide in love are in sync with the spirit of love. That’s why the commandments to love God and love neighbor are the pillars for the other commandments. Grace is love displayed.

    You replied with a snarky “Someone’s confused.” If you can’t understand my answers to your questions, perhaps a graduate course or two in theology might be of help.

    I’m not answering the questions in the “you’re confused” post. They aren’t sincere.
     
  9. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    Gal 3:1-3,

    1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
    2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
    That has to fit in there somewhere. Then there is this;

    Heb 7:19,

    For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
    The law was never meant to be followed in order to be saved or perfected after salvation.

    Rom 5:20,

    Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
    Gal 3:19,

    Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
    Gal 3:24,

    Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
    It appears that the purpose of the law was not to save us or to make us perfect. It appears it was given so we would have a clear idea of where we were wrong and that the only way to correct that was by the work of Jesus Christ, i.e. salvation is by grace and, as Paul said to the Galatians, perfection comes the same way. It is truly grace that we can learn about the love that God and His son have for us. The more we know about that the more we want to walk according to the scriptures.

    With few exceptions, the OT folks were basically incapable of manifesting the love of God. You can't manifest something you don't have. The situation changed when God raised Jesus from the dean and the new birth was made available on the day of Pentecost.

    Rom 5:5,

    And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.​

    As born again believers it is now possible for us to truly love God and our neighbor. The upshot of that:

    Rom 13:10,

    Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.
    Does that not fit perfectly with Paul's admonition in Galatians 3:1-3? Sure it does! Who needs law when you have love!

    God bless.
     
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  10. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for sharing your thoughts Rob but they do not adress the OP. Can you have Grace without law when it is law that brings you to grace and how can you separate love when Gods law is the very expression of what love is *ROMANS 13:8-10.?
     
  11. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    Well, I'm not really sure how to answer your question. It's a good one. Maybe this is what you are looking for:

    John 1:17,

    For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
    I think this verse and those in Romans 13 are probably written at a 6th to 8th grade reading level. God so loved that He gave. I think that is a concise definition of love. If we give of ourselves to serve others (something Jesus emphasized more than once) we will be manifesting God's love and in so doing, fulfill the law. To put it in simple terms, I'd never lie to, steal from, slander or murder anyone. There is no need for me to make daily sacrifices, attend the required feasts, rest on the Sabbath, etc.I don't need a law to tell me not to lie, steal, slander or murder.

    I think the truth that I was never part of God's covenant with Israel, nor the law that was part of that covenant, and yet I enjoy the fruits of God's grace ought to have some bearing on the issue.

    Does that make any sense to you? Take care.
     
    #31 rrobs, Jan 5, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2020
  12. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    You’re conflating two meanings of the term “law.” There is law in the sense of a written code, and then there is law in the sense of “spiritual order.” Love is the second example. The Mosaic code is an example of the first. It is possible to separate the two, since the mandated observance of the second does not always reflect the first.

    And, since love is a universal spiritual paradigm, The Judaic code cannot encompass all of it, since there are many cultures that comprise the human family. Gentiles need not observe the Judaic code in order to live into the paradigm of love. Yes, the Jews believe that observing the Law brings God’s favor. That’s great for them, but we need not buy into it, ourselves.
     
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  13. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Not really, do you know the difference between God's LAW (10 commandments) and the Mosaic book of the law? How do you separate law from love when love is expressed through obedience to God's law?
     
  14. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Hi Rob, so than are you saying that love is an expression of obedience to God's law (10 commandments) and that love is expressed through God's law to God and our fellow man?
     
  15. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    How do you express love when you’re not part of that culture? Did you read my post? What about Hindus in India? Do they love? Are they living into that universal order of love? You bet! Are following any Judaic law? No.
     
  16. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    Not at all.

    Heb 7:19,

    For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
    Heb 10:1,

    For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
    Clearly the law was never meant to be the solution to sin and death. There are several other verses that echo that sentiment, but the two above should suffice for now.

    1John 4:15-18,

    15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
    16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
    17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
    18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
    We receive the love of God, not by law, but by confessing that Jesus is the son of God. As I said before, not being a party to God's covenant with the Jews, the law was never meant for me to begin with. God gave it to Israel, so I have nothing to do with it. The good works I do (or don't do :() are a result of the love of God which dwells within me purely by grace. They have nothing to do with law.

    Galatians 3:1-3 make it pretty clear that we neither began in law nor will we be perfected by law. Why is it so hard to comprehend that the love of God that is in you is light years ahead of law? Why grovel around in the shallows when you can soar to the most greatest of heights?

    As 1 John said, when we dwell in God the love He gave us is perfected. Dwelling in God is simply thinking the thoughts of God (which he reveals in the scriptures) instead of worldly thoughts. Jesus told us to set our thoughts on things above, not on things below. Paul said the same thing in many different ways. Every thought you have that is aligned with God's word enables you to manifest His love to others in an ever increasing way. The key to the Christian walk lies in renewing our mind, your thoughts, to align with the scriptures.

    As Hebrews declares, nothing is made perfect by law. When you walk by love there is no telling what God may have you do for others. You are not limited by any law. You are only limited by your the love of God which of course really has no limits. God may have you do the craziest things if He knows it will help some poor soul in this world. Every day is a surprise when you walk with God.

    Putting you thoughts on yourself, how you may or may not be following the law, is nothing less than walking by the flesh. Think about what God and Jesus did for you and stop thinking what you can do for them. Kennedy may have had it right when dealing with men, but when it comes the the things of God one must, "think not on what you can do for God, but think on what God has done for you!" Doing so will cause the love of God to spring from your innermost being in a most fantastic way. Don't squander even one moment of your life trying to somehow make yourself acceptable to God. That was Jesus' job, and a fine job of it he did. You are complete in him, not in your good works.

    Since God told us the law neither got us started with Him nor will it help us continue with Him, being concerned with the law is actually against God's will! Being concerned with law will not help you manifest God's love in any way, shape, or form. The only way to walk closer with God is to let your mind dwell on the things of God and not man, which includes you yourself. Too many Christians, because of orthodox church teaching, may well occupy their thoughts with how they might make themselves conform to the law in order to grow. Not only is that not true, but it is an insult to both God and Jesus; to God because it shows a lack of belief in His plan of redemption (the logos of John 1:1) and to Jesus because it is calling him a liar when he said, "it is finished" as he hung on the cross. Jesus truly did finish your salvation. There is not need for you to add to it in any way.

    Any attempt in following the law exhibits a lack of belief in the work Jesus did. It also shows a lack of understanding of grace. Just try to believe and act upon the simplicity of that which John told us about perfecting the love of God in you and you'll be doing God's will. Nothing other than that will do.

    God bless
     
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  17. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Your response here...

    Hi Rob, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I will respond to this in detail later but I wish to make sure I do not misunderstand you before I do. So hope you do not mind me asking you some questions for clarification.

    If you do not believe that God's love is expressed through obedience to God's law than how do you love God and your fellow man in your view, when JESUS says "on these two commandments of love to God and man Hang all the law and the prophets *MATTHEW 22:36-40 and when Paul says God's LAW is establsihed through faith that works by love *ROMANS 3:31 which is the new covenant promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12 fulfilled by love *ROMANS 13:8-10. (Please check the references that support the questions asked before responding).

    Please keep in mind that I am not asking you if we are saved by the works of the law which is in reference to the scriptures you have provided. We are saved by grace through faith and not of works lest any man should boast it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8-9. If sin is the transgression of any one of God's 10 commandments and the wages of sin is death *JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4; ROMANS 6:23 how do you reconcile what you have written above? Are christians now free to sin (break God's Law)? I do not believe the scriptures teach this.

    Also, I noticed your quoting HEBREWS 10:1. Is this talking about God's LAW (10 commandments) that gives us the knowledge of what sin is when it is broken *ROMANS 3:20 or is it talking about the shadow laws written in the Mosaic book of the law for remission of sins of the old covenant *EXODUS 24:7?

    Blessings..
     
    #37 3rdAngel, Jan 6, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
  18. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    Never minded talking with a brother! Isn't there something about, "iron sharpening iron" in the scriptures?

    I'm not certain how anything I said would go against any of these verses. Jesus didn't tell me personally anything in Matthew. Before my new birth I was a Gentile. Jesus specifically said he came for the lost sheep of Israel, something which I am not.

    Matt 15:24,

    But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.​

    Rom 15:8,

    Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:​

    Romans 3:20 is a simple assertion that we can not be justified by law. It further says that the reason for the law was that we might know we are sinners and need redemption. The same idea is confirmed later in Rom 7:20. Romans 3:21 adds some pertinent information regarding verse 20.

    Hebrews 8:10-12 validates what I said before. God's covenant of law was established with Israel and the New Covenant will also be established with Israel. It is a mistake to think we are now living in the New Testament. It will not begin until Jesus returns an sets up the kingdom that God assured Israel he would established. Again, not my contract with God. Christians are part of the mystery of which Paul has much to speak. It's all over his letters. Just look up the word "mystery."

    While I can most certainly learn from the OT (Rom 15:4), I am nonetheless left out in the cold when it comes to God's covenant with Israel. I'm no more part of that contract than I am with Tom Brady's contract with the New England Patriots. I might wish I was, but I'm not. Please don't misconstrue this as saying I don't believe in the OT. As Romans 15:4 says, I can certainly learn from it, a boat load of learning in fact, but learning about it does not make me a party to it. I can learn plenty of things from Tom Brady's contract, but it does little to actually increase my bank account level. But on the other hand, I don't get the bruising either!

    While true the wages of sin is death, it is equally true that we have received remission of sins and have been made as righteous as God Himself (Rom 3:22). Taking that together with incorruptible seed, I see no reason to dwell on my sins or the law. I do sin, but as I confess them God is faithful and just to forgive them and cleanse me from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). But even if I didn't confess them, I'm still born again of incorruptible seed. You can't even stop being your earthly father's son no matter how much you might disgrace him. Can we not credit God with at least the same ability? I'd say His incorruptible seed is light years ahead of my earthly father's corruptible (this flesh body will die) seed.

    Remember, Jesus settled once and for all question of sin and death (Rom 5:12-31), leaving me free to do God's work instead of somehow trying to reign in my dead flesh.

    I understand you to believe that we begin with grace. However, I am not certain that you are not making the same mistake the Galatians made (Gal 3:1-3). Personally, I agree with both ideas; I was saved by grace and I'm perfected in my walk by the same grace. I am in fact dead to the law. Therefore I live unto God.

    Gal 2:19,

    For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
    Seems like a good deal to me!

    A few folks asked Paul the same question about being free to sin. I defer to his answer in Romans chapters 6 and 7. I think they are plain enough.

    I'll answer this with the caveat that I'm not 100% sure what you mean by shadow laws. I looked it up in a concordance and didn't see any verses that mention such things, but maybe I've just not heard that term before.

    Hebrews 10:1 is speaking specifically to the sacrifices and feasts of Israel. However it is quite possible that, by the figure of speech metonomy, it is speaking to the whole law. In any case, I don't see how anything I said goes against that either.

    If you are suggesting we might loose our salvation by sinning, I'd be curious as to how many sins we are allotted before loosing that salvation. Is it a matter of quantity or quality? Is there any way to be sure about the allotted number of sins, or do we just have to worry about it until Jesus returns?

    And blessings right back to ya! :)
     
    #38 rrobs, Jan 6, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2020
  19. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Likewise Rob, I like having a friendly discussion with a brother for a change. It is quite refreshing thanks for your kind responses. I might break my post to you up over a few posts if you do not mind as yours is a little long to address everything you have posted in a single post :)

    Perhaps let me show why. Do you remember earlier, I asked you in an earlier post, "So than are you saying that love is an expression of obedience to God's law (10 commandments) and that love is expressed through God's law to God and our fellow man?" Your response was "Not at all"

    Then I wrote...

    "If you do not believe that God's love is expressed through obedience to God's law than how do you love God and your fellow man in your view, when JESUS says "on these two commandments of love to God and man Hang all the law and the prophets *MATTHEW 22:36-40 and when Paul says God's LAW is establsihed through faith that works by love *ROMANS 3:31 which is the new covenant promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12 fulfilled by love *ROMANS 13:8-10. (Please check the references that support the questions asked before responding)?"

    The scriptures provided in this section demonstrate we are not saved by what we do but what we do is a fruit of faith that we have in God's Word and show that love fulfills or establishes God's LAW in the heart of the beleiver. You cannot separate love from obedience because obedience is how God's love is expressed to both God and man as shown in LEVITICUS 19:18; DEUTERONOMY 6:5 as shown by JESUS in MATTHEW 22:36-40. At least that is how I read these scriptures and why I asked you to read them before replying and why I asked you the question how do we love God and our fellow man if you do not believe that love is expressed or fulfilled by obedience to God's law by faith in God's Word. I read these scriptures as obedience is not how we are saved it is the fruit of faith that works by love and is why JESUS says "IF you love me keep my commandments *JOHN 14:15.

    For me the new covenant is different to the old covenant. There is no longer any ISRAEL in the flesh. According to the scriptures in the new covenant God's ISRAEL is all those who believe and follow God's Word as it is written...

    ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

    ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

    According to the scriptures Gentile "believers" are now grafted in to Gods ISRAEL *ROMANS 11:13-27 because if we are not a part of God's ISRAEL in the new covenant we have no part in God's new covenant promise of a new heart (born again) by faith as given in JEREMIAH 31:31-34 and repeated by PAUL in HEBREWS 8:10-12.

    So what this means is that MATTHEW and all the word of God are for you and me who are God's ISRAEL in the new covenant who are all those who "believe and follow" God's Word. This is shown also by the very words of JESUS in JOHN 10:26-27. We are God's ISRAEL and we are to live by "every word" that proceeds out of the mouth of God *MATTHEW 4:4.

    continued...
     
    #39 3rdAngel, Jan 6, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
  20. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Correct that is why I added it because ROMANS 3:20 is a simple explanation on the purpose of God's LAW. We are not saved by God's LAW (10 commandments) it's purpose is to give us the knowledge of what sin is when we break any one of them and to lead us to Chrsit that we might be forgiven by faith *GALATIANS 3:22-25; ROMANS 8:1-4. This is also repeated by Paul in ROMANS 7:7, JAMES 2:10-11 and in 1 JOHN 3:4. That does not mean that God's LAW is abolished it is established through faith as PAUL says further on in ROMANS 3:31 and again in HEBREWS 8:10-12 which is the new covenant promise of a new heart to love through faith (God's Law written on the heart) to all those who believe and follow God's Word (God's ISRAEL).

    This is where we would disagree. My understanding of the scriptures here is based on HEBREWS 7; HEBREWS 8; HEBREWS 9 and HEBREWS 10; JOHN 3:3-7; 1 JOHN 3:3-10. These scriptures are a direct parrallel to the fulfillment of God's new covenant promise to God's ISRAEL first given in JEREMIAH 31:31-34; 31; EZEKIEL 11:19 and repeated by PAUL in HEBREWS 8:10-12. The new covenant is a change of the MOSAIC shadow laws for remission of sin and a change of the Priesthood as shown in *HEBREWS 7; HEBREWS 8 HEBREWS 9 and HEBREWS 10:1-7; written in the Mosaic book of the covenant *EXODUS 24:7 - not God's eternal law (10 commandments) that was written with God's own finger on two tables of stone *EXODUS 32:16, that give us the knowledge of what sin is in the new covenant *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4. The new covenant of a new heart to love is what it means to be born again *HEBREWS 8:10-12; 1 JOHN 3:3-10; JOHN 3:3-7; ROMANS 6:1-23; ROMANS 8:1-4; 13 and GALATIANS 5:16.

    continued...
     
    #40 3rdAngel, Jan 6, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
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