Last minute converts.

[Karl R]

How do people who have been firm believers in a God feel about people who, if they get a chance, convert ( or say they belive in a God) just before they die?

Better late than never.

I remember meeting a homeless alcoholic (named Demian Manley) on the streets of St. Louis while passing through with some friends. Largely due to the efforts of my friends, he was talked into cleaning up and going into rehab.

A friend of mine (the one who had been most instrumental in convincing him to go into rehab) later followed up and tried to find out what had happened. According to the hospital chaplain, Mr. Manley had died in rehab due to alcohol related problems (liver failure, etc.), but he had converted shortly before his death.

My initial emotions were disappointment (that he had died before getting to live an alcohol-free life) and relief (that some good had come out of our efforts to help Mr. Manley).

would you feel cheated? especially if the person doing the repenting had been a right B*****d.

That person cheated themself.

One of the most tangible benefits of following a religion is that you learn how to stop being a b*****d. (Obviously, some people learn this lesson better than others. And some use their religious beliefs to uncover new venues to be obnoxious in.)

so just in case there is a God I will repent, what do you think would be the best words to use? remember, it has got to be convincing.

Good luck with that.

God knows your thoughts. Use what ever words you want.

If I get a chance, just before I die I will do that, after all what have I got to loose, my life will be over anyway,

That's like a child or teenager who decides to party and vacation instead of going to school. They want to have fun now. They'll wait to get an education when they're a senior citizen and too old to run around and party. That way they won't miss out on any fun.

While there is a warped form of logic in that line of thought, the person has missed the entire point. The point of getting an education isn't so you'll be educated when you die. It's so you'll have the benefits of education while you live.

Pursuing religious beliefs is very similar. There is a life-long benefit to being one of those wonderful people that makes a difference in the world around them, and that others are glad that they met.

Be a right b*****d for your whole life if you want. I've been much happier since I stopped.

 

[James the Persian]

There are large numbers of Christians who believe that people are saved by "faith, not works", and who therefore believe in deathbed salvation regardless of the wickedness of the life that preceded it, assuming that repentance is honest and sincere.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Denying the possibility of a genuine death bed conversion, even for those of us who do not blieve in salvation by faith alone rather flies in the face of Scripture. The Good Thief, being the obvious example. It's the sincerity of the faith and repentance that matters, not when in life one comes to it.

James

 

[Rejected]

Why on earth would I feel cheated? I would be elated for the individual who repented and gave their lives to Christ before death. THAT is how awesome God is...His mercy and grace is always extended to us.

If anything the individual who waited so long would be "cheated" (but not really). We're rewarded in heaven according to our works.

However...it's a win/win situation when someone gives their life to God...even if in the last minutes of life. That's a BEAUTIFUL thing. Christ's forgiveness is extended to even the nastiest of b*****ds.

Then with this knowledge in mind, that all you have to do to attain salvation is sincerely be repentant in the hours preceding you death, what would prevent one from leading a hedonistic, self-indulgent life?

What prevents someone who know that something is wrong (read: against their religions doctrine) from doing it anyway. I know that Baptists believe that drinking, dancing, gambling, etc. are "wrong" but if they do these things anyway, and are regretful for them, how does that clear the bill?

What justification do I have for denying myself they things that are enjoyable (and trust me, whether you want to admit it or not, they are enjoyable) just because the book says not to, if I can still get away with it?

 

[James the Persian]

Then with this knowledge in mind, that all you have to do to attain salvation is sincerely be repentant in the hours preceding you death, what would prevent one from leading a hedonistic, self-indulgent life?

What prevents someone who know that something is wrong (read: against their religions doctrine) from doing it anyway. I know that Baptists believe that drinking, dancing, gambling, etc. are "wrong" but if they do these things anyway, and are regretful for them, how does that clear the bill?

What justification do I have for denying myself they things that are enjoyable (and trust me, whether you want to admit it or not, they are enjoyable) just because the book says not to, if I can still get away with it?

I would say that doing something wrong out of ignorance and sincerely repenting shortly before death is one thing. Doing things that you know to be wrong deliberately, secure in the knowledge that you can 'just' repent on your deathbed is another thing entirely. In the latter case, which is the one you are hypothesising about, just how sincere can any repentance possibly be? to my mind it would more than likely be nothing but empty words.

James

 

[SoyLeche]

Bart: I figured I'd go for the life of sin followed by the presto-chango death bed repentance.
Brother Faith: Hmm, that's a good angle...(flounders)... but it's not God's angle! Why not live your life helping people - then you're covered for sudden death.
Bart: Full coverage, huh...

 

[Rejected]

I would say that doing something wrong out of ignorance and sincerely repenting shortly before death is one thing. Doing things that you know to be wrong deliberately, secure in the knowledge that you can 'just' repent on your deathbed is another thing entirely. In the latter case, which is the one you are hypothesising about, just how sincere can any repentance possibly be? to my mind it would more than likely be nothing but empty words.

James

Ok, hypothetical situation:

A young woman from a small town, who grew up in a very religious, conservative family, graduates and goes to college. Her and a few new friends decide to Mardi gras.

She gets there and isn’t having a good time. She’s not drinking or doing anything else because she’s been brought up to believe that’s these things are sinful.

As the night drags on the finally decides to give in to temptation and have a drink. She likes it. She likes it so much that she decides to have another, and before long she finds herself having a great time and doing all the clichéd things that young women at Mardi gras do.

The next day, aside from a small headache she feels nothing. Except for an extreme sense of guilt and shame brought on by the simple act of indulging herself and having a good time. No one was harmed, she’s done nothing that she will grow to regret; she just had a good time.

But now she’s all torn up because her religion is in direct opposition to something that she enjoyed and will probably do again because she does not see the harm in it. She will still feel guilt and the need to repent each time, but her actions do not change.

After a long and prosperous life on which she continued to drink responsibly, never causing anyone harm, she is finally at death’s door. Because what she viewed as right and wrong clashed with the views of her church she quit attending years ago but still lead a moral life. Now she is scared of what will become of her after she passes. She is full of grief not because she drank all those years, but because she defied the will of her God, whom she never stopped believing in, and repents. Is she not worthy of the kingdom of heaven? Why are her words empty?

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

Ok, hypothetical situation:

A young woman from a small town, who grew up in a very religious, conservative family, graduates and goes to college. Her and a few new friends decide to Mardi gras.

She gets there and isn’t having a good time. She’s not drinking or doing anything else because she’s been brought up to believe that’s these things are sinful.

As the night drags on the finally decides to give in to temptation and have a drink. She likes it. She likes it so much that she decides to have another, and before long she finds herself having a great time and doing all the clichéd things that young women at Mardi gras do.

The next day, aside from a small headache she feels nothing. Except for an extreme sense of guilt and shame brought on by the simple act of indulging herself and having a good time. No one was harmed, she’s done nothing that she will grow to regret; she just had a good time.

But now she’s all torn up because her religion is in direct opposition to something that she enjoyed and will probably do again because she does not see the harm in it. She will still feel guilt and the need to repent each time, but her actions do not change.

After a long and prosperous life on which she continued to drink responsibly, never causing anyone harm, she is finally at death’s door. Because what she viewed as right and wrong clashed with the views of her church she quit attending years ago but still lead a moral life. Now she is scared of what will become of her after she passes. She is full of grief not because she drank all those years, but because she defied the will of her God, whom she never stopped believing in, and repents. Is she not worthy of the kingdom of heaven? Why are her words empty?

According to Jesus, she was forgiven before she even asks for forgiveness. Jesus says it's not by our works that we will be judged. In the example you have given, it is not the woman's acts that separate her from God, it is her feelings of guilt. She must forgive herself, for God has already forgiven her. She must recognize that she is worthy of forgiveness.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I think it's very sad to renounce one's whole life at the end of it.

First, some people need to renounce their life of being a b*****d (it took me forever to figure out what a b******d is with all those figgin letters missing). You're right - it is sad, but it's better than dying a b*stard.

Second, a conversion may be the culmination of realizing how your life's quest lead you to God or belief in whatever.

If the conversion is real, death can be a very meaningful experience.

 

[Saint George]

This is one thing that we do not worry about in the Catholic Church. One of the major things that we Catholics strongly believe is that there is no faith without good works. Faith without good works is just an empty concept. To have faith is to follow the commandment of Christ which is to love one another. And if you really love your fellown man, you would not hesitate to do good works for him. So, declaring your faith on your deathbed while living a life of selfishness and sin is not an ideal way to end your life.

That being said, we just do not know who will be saved on judgement day. God will save whomever he pleases. It's a pretty safe bet to state that Mother Teresa will be saved and that racists will probably not be saved. But we just don't know how its actually going to turn out. I really like the parable of Lazarus and the rich man when it comes to the afterlife. Here was a rich man who praised God and had "great faith" but he never lifted a finger to help the begger Lazarus who was living on the street just outside of the rich man's house. This is a perfect example of faith without good works.

Another thing that I would like to add is that no religion or no religious leader can tell you for certain that you will be saved or lost. No one can speak for God in this matter. If you encounter a protestant nut job that promises that he can get you to heaven then beware of that man or religion. Salvation is a life long process and it is based on the commandment that Christ left for all of us to follow. And that it "Love one another". To have faith is to love one another as Christ loves you. Faith is not a statement that you make or a belief that you hold in your heart. That type of faith is nothing but empty words.

 

[Mystic-als]

it took me forever to figure out what a b******d is with all those figgin letters missing

HAHAHAH HEHEHEHE HUHUHUHU
Frubals for you! I haven't laughed so hard in a while. Thank you.

If the conversion is real, death can be a very meaningful experience.

Totally agree. 100% But the only two that will kow if it is real is God and the person dying. So for us to debate the morality or fairness of it all is futile. God made the rules and he's the ref. So what He says and thinks is final.

I want to clear something up though. I heard someone say the our life determines how we are judged. This is nice but when you make the deceision to follow Christ doesn't the bible say you are a new creation all things have passed away and behold all things have become new. ? If so then if you make the deceision just before you die, you die perfect. I agree that you'll get to heaven and there'll be no treasures there for you. Because you haven't had a chance to "store up treasues in heaven". But the bible says that we'll throw our crowns at his feet anyway. So the treasures are meaningless to the continued life in heaven. I think it's a form of praise by throwing these crowns at his feet. No crowns = no praise. This is the "punishment" for living a life of sin before conversion.

Obviously I know there'll be disagreements about this. So just pay attension to the red part.

 

[stemann]

She is full of grief not because she drank all those years, but because she defied the will of her God, whom she never stopped believing in, and repents.

How come in her life she thought, 'Omniscient benevolent God wants me not to drink. I will drink anyway.' I don't understand how one can defy God, if one believes in Him.

If you encounter a protestant nut job that promises that he can get you to heaven then beware of that man or religion.

What about a Catholic "nut job" who promises the same thing?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I don't understand how one can defy God, if one believes in Him.

Simple: when one understands that belief is not all that God requires.

IMHO, belief in God is required to defy her.

 

[Rejected]

Simple: when one understands that belief is not all that God requires.

IMHO, belief in God is required to defy her.

Exactly. If one has no beleifs then there is nothing to defy.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Exactly. If one has no beleifs then there is nothing to defy.

The story of Jonah comes to mind here.

 

[niceguy]

How do you feal? Maybe it's like this: If you feal bad when you do bad things or about bad things you done, then you are a good person and thus you a are sincere. It's all about that gut fealing. A fake confession/convertion may fool people around you and maybe even yourself but God will not be fooled.

 

[Saint George]

How come in her life she thought, 'Omniscient benevolent God wants me not to drink. I will drink anyway.' I don't understand how one can defy God, if one believes in Him.



What about a Catholic "nut job" who promises the same thing?

A Catholic leader in the Church would not be able to make such a public statement and get away with it. They would be excommuncated and thrown out of the Church immediately. On reason why we have a hierarchical structure of bishops and priests is to maintain the faith that was handed down to us 2000 years ago. If anyone attempts to preach something other than the original teachings of Christ, they will be thrown out immediately. We do not accept anyone who comes out of the woods and claims to have found the "truth" and all one has to do is to follow him to the promise land. That's not how the Catholic Church works. Our traditions and our teachings are 2000 years old and they will be maintained throughout the ages.

:no:

 

[Katzpur]

How do people who have been firm believers in a God feel about people who, if they get a chance, convert ( or say they belive in a God) just before they die?
would you feel cheated? especially if the person doing the repenting had been a right B*****d.

I don't believe in "deathbed repentence" if that's what you're asking. But I'm not quite sure why I'd feel cheated if I did. Could you explain?

 

[evearael]

I would be suspicious of their motives and sincerity, but that doesn't really matter because it isn't my place and I can't see what's in their heart anymore than they could see mine.

 

[dawny0826]

Then with this knowledge in mind, that all you have to do to attain salvation is sincerely be repentant in the hours preceding you death, what would prevent one from leading a hedonistic, self-indulgent life?

What prevents someone who know that something is wrong (read: against their religions doctrine) from doing it anyway. I know that Baptists believe that drinking, dancing, gambling, etc. are "wrong" but if they do these things anyway, and are regretful for them, how does that clear the bill?

What justification do I have for denying myself they things that are enjoyable (and trust me, whether you want to admit it or not, they are enjoyable) just because the book says not to, if I can still get away with it?

As I said...we're rewarded according to our works. And to repent...one must be sincere and honest in their acceptance of Christ. To accept Christ out of fear, not love moments before death...null and voids the whole process.

So...if one lived a self-indulgent life and gave their lives half heartedly to Christ out of fear and selfishness moments before death...they truly didn't accept Christ.

It's all about motive and intent and one's heart and mindset when they repent.

Repenting isn't simply saying "Gee, I screwed up and am sorry."...it's the apology WITH a SINCERE desire to correct the behaviour.

As a Christian, when I do something knowingly that's wrong...there's a price to pay. Until I've come clean to Christ and have corrected the behaviour and with a sincere heart strive to change...it eats at me emotionally in a terrible way as I know I've sinned.

You can't "clear the bill" unless you are sincere. Further, we're not clearing the bill...it's Christ's blood that "clears the bill".

One who is sincere would truly desire change. There's a rebirth involved when one accepts Christ...there's a sincere desire to abandon the flesh and follow Christ for the rest of your life...whether your life spans years or moments.

If this desire isn't present...then one hasn't been saved.

 

[Katzpur]

Then that is what I will do If I get a chance, just before I die I will do that, after all what have I got to loose, my life will be over anyway, so just in case there is a God I will repent, what do you think would be the best words to use?
remember, it has got to be convincing.

You obviously don't know jack about what repentence is. I'd work on figuring that out before you put any thought into the words you'll use.