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Land of Israel

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Actually, those who are born again are in fact perfect:

Hebrews 10:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Also Matthew 5:48 (YLT) where Jesus said....
"ye shall therefore be perfect, as your Father who [is] in the heavens is perfect."

According to Strongs, "perfect" is translated from the Greek τέλειος téleios, tel'-i-os; from G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness:—of full age, man, perfect."

Perfection in this case is not sinlessness, but a growing to spiritual maturity on the part of the ones chosen by God for a specific role in the Kingdom. (Revelation 20:6) Those taken into the New Covenant will be 'kings and priests' ruling with Christ in heaven, so this state of "completeness" is based upon their record as faithful Christians in every aspect of their earthly lives. It requires works to back up their claims of being footstep followers of the Christ. (James 2:24-26) They are commanded to carry on his work of preaching the "good news" (Matthew 24:14; 28:19, 20)


Understanding what "perfection" means is the hard part, though, not so hard, one must simply keep this statement in context of both the Chapter it is found in as well as the larger body of the Book of Hebrews.

Romans 5:1-2 YLT
"Having been declared righteous, then, by faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have the access by the faith into this grace in which we have stood, and we boast on the hope of the glory of God."


The YLT puts it rather well I thought. Being "declared righteous" in spite of being in imperfect flesh is what Paul had in mind here. He lamented about the frustrations of a mind subject to Christ but a body subject to sin. (Romans 7:21-25) Where was Paul's "perfection"? Only when the sinful body is abandoned and a new spiritual body provided, would Paul experience true perfection.

This translation is questionable.

It was taken from The Complete Jewish Bible, perhaps less likely to bring in bias from the teachings of Christendom, which I believe the KJV often does.

I have a dislike for the KJV...sorry. It is more questionable than most others in its renderings in my experience. :(

Galatians 3:23-25
King James Version (KJV)

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The word rendered "schoolmaster" is misleading here. The word in Greek is "paidagōgos" and it means "tutor". A tutor of Bible times was generally, not the actual teacher, but the one who accompanied the child to and from school and possibly in other activities as well. He would turn the child over to the instructor. This continued from childhood to perhaps puberty or longer. He was to keep the child from physical or moral harm.

The Law was a means to an end and it reminded Jews every day that they were sinners in need of their Messiah and his Kingdom.


So while we might not be perfect in regards to progressive sanctification, we are in fact made complete in Christ, and because we are born again, which is the result of being brought into Eternal Union with God, we are able to walk in His statutes and keep His judgments:

It is not a guarantee of personal salvation however. Even those who once walked in God's ways can deviate and lose their salvation. (2 Peter 2:20-22)

Ezekiel 36:24-27
King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Exactly, no Christian can 'walk in God's statutes' without the aid of his spirit....and no one can come to the Christ without an invitation from the Father. (John 6:44) He chooses us as much as we choose him.

And just as a sidepoint...one of the things I dislike most about the KJV is the old terminology. Calling someone a "heathen" is rather insulting. "From among the nations" is so much more apt, and non condemnatory, don't you think?
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Is that what Judaism teaches metis? Guesswork? What do the Hebrew scriptures tell us about Abraham that explains exactly why God chose him?
This issue being addressed by myself is why did God choose Jews to be the "chosen", and there are various theories on this, but the one that tends to attract the most support is that we, through Abraham, chose to recognize and worship the One God.

Oh, but it's not that complicated. It is beautiful in its simplicity actually. What was Messiah's appearance going to accomplish? Did Jesus fulfill the Messianic prophesies? Has anyone to date fulfilled more of them?
But Jesus certainly did not fulfill all of them, therefore he cannot be declared to be the "Messiah" unless one lets their "guesswork" take over. Even some Christian theologians recognize that.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
You avoided addressing most of my posts
Since most of your posts are more like sermons that all too often deviate from the main point(s) being discussed, I simply do not have the time nor the desire to respond to every little thing you post.

He does however expect us to do our best to keep his laws.
Which "laws"? You keep saying we need to follow "God's Laws", but yet you don't actually believe that. [see below]

What double standard are you talking about? The entire Law was based on just two, according to Jesus.
And that was Jesus' opinion, but any Jew of Jesus' day well knew that there were far more than just the two-- 613 to be exact-- and they're all found in Torah.

The only parts of the Law that no longer apply to Gentiles are the ceremonial ones.
Absolutely false. None of the Law applies to Gentiles as these were giving to Jews at Sinai and when we occupied Canaan. And the Law is the Law, and nowhere in Torah does it separate the Laws and claim that "ceremonial laws" need not be followed.

God gave his Law only to Israel.....no one else.
Correct. But notice that you actually contracted yourself. [see post above]

Yet at times Israel became slack in their duties towards their God and revealed where their hearts were by the quality of their sacrifices.
But again you resort to a double-standard, namely that you believe the Abrahamic Covenant was revoked by God because of our "unfaithfulness", and yet the same thing happened with Christianity and yet you keep on saying that God's "new covenant" with them is still valid.

Again, why would God remove the Abrahamic Covenant with us, especially since we were heavily punished if we violated too many of them, and then turn around and say that it was no longer necessary to follow the entire Law?

Your position literally makes not one iota of sense, especially it basically says that God is a homicidal maniac who is willing to punish and even allow people to be killed over the 613 Laws found in Torah that you say aren't really that important after all.

IOW, you keep trying to have it both ways, namely saying it's God's Law that must be followed, except when you say that it's really not that important to follow most of them because of the supposed "ceremonial laws".

So, please provide evidence from Torah or Tanakh that says "ceremonial laws" need not be followed or are optional, or admit that this all was just an invention from your JW leaders.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The Law was a means to an end and it reminded Jews every day that they were sinners in need of their Messiah and his Kingdom.
Absolutely false as the issue of the Messiah is a relatively minor one, plus it's really not clear exactly what the Messiah is to be like. And since Jesus didn't actually fulfill them, ...
 

S.T.Ranger

Member
S.T.Ranger said:
S.T.Ranger said:
Actually, those who are born again are in fact perfect:

Hebrews 10:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Also Matthew 5:48 (YLT) where Jesus said....
"ye shall therefore be perfect, as your Father who [is] in the heavens is perfect."

According to Strongs, "perfect" is translated from the Greek τέλειος téleios, tel'-i-os; from G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness:—of full age, man, perfect."



And the word that is the focus is...complete.

Again, the context is that of remission of sins, and whereas the (Covenant of) Law could not make "complete," the Sacrifice of Christ did, and this...

...forever.

What that means, Deeje, is that there is no more need for remission of sins on an eternal basis. While we do sin in this body and will always need to repent and be forgiven (by both God as well as those we sin against), we do not seek to attain to "more remission of sin" on an eternal basis. The Sacrifice of Christ is sufficient to save us on an eternal basis, which is why we call it eternal life that we receive (which is attained through the Eternal Union we receive when we are Reconciled to God.

This post shows you are viewing perfection/completion as something we engage in and seek to attain, rather than, like salvation, what it is, something effected by God.

The above quote from Matthew 5 is not really any different than Christ's command to believe, be born again, or to "abide in Him, all of which was not accomplished during His Ministry on earth, because we see that not even the disciples of Christ believed on His Resurrection either before or after the Resurrection.

The reason...



John 20:9
King James Version (KJV)

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.




Perfection in this case is not sinlessness,


That is correct. It is the Doctrine of Eternal Remission, promised by God in the Old Testament, and received by those who believe on Jesus Christ:


Hebrews 10:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.



That is what this...


Hebrews 10:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



...is speaking of.


but a growing to spiritual maturity on the part of the ones chosen by God for a specific role in the Kingdom.

Sorry, no.

It is a completed act that is effected when we are saved.

While Paul does speak of perfection that is relevant to progressive sanctification in his Epistles, here we have to maintain the context and Doctrine of this Writer (who I believe to be Paul but am not dogmatic about it).

Here is another example of "Perfection" in Hebrews:



Hebrews 7:11-2 &18-19
King James Version (KJV)

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.


18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.



Now lets go back to Ch.10:


Hebrews 10
King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.



Again, the context is one of remission of sins, and the point he is making to his Hebrew brethren is that they need to go on unto Perfection...



Hebrews 6:1-3
King James Version (KJV)

6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.



...rather than remain under Law, which Covenant had been abrogated by the introduction of the New Covenant.

Again, the rebuke is for their ignorance in the First Principles of the Oracles (Word) of God, and the exhortation is to progress to the Completion given in regards to the Doctrine of Christ.

We see the contrast between the two Covenants here:



Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?



It is quite likely you, as most do, view the "willful sin" here as the believer willfully sinning after salvation. What it is saying is those who reject the New Covenant and remain under Law will be punished more severely than those who rejected "Moses' Law," or, the Covenant of Law. The death under the First Covenant was physical, for people who violated the Law were put to death on the spot, but, the death incurred by those who reject Christ, His Sacrifice, the Covenant which was inaugurated by His Blood (death), and the Ministry of the Comforter (the Spirit of Truth, Who seeks to convict those who are unbelieving (John 16:7-9)) is everlasting, the Second Death.


Continued...
 

S.T.Ranger

Member


(Revelation 20:6) Those taken into the New Covenant will be 'kings and priests' ruling with Christ in heaven, so this state of "completeness" is based upon their record as faithful Christians in every aspect of their earthly lives.

If you are implying that no-one is under the New Covenant at this time and recipients of the Promises of God, I would suggest that you consider...



2 Corinthians 3
King James Version (KJV)


5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?


Just as Paul makes clear, the (Covenant of) Law could not give life.

Only Jesus Christ can do that, and He has done that for every man and woman who has been Reconciled to GOd and born again as a result of Eternal Union with God which takes place the moment one believes on Christ.

And by the way, I take the position that "Kingdom of Priests" is the better translation.


It requires works to back up their claims of being footstep followers of the Christ. (James 2:24-26)


Another problem I see with most who debate James' and Paul's statements concerning Abraham's Justification is that while Abraham was indeed justified by both faith alone and works, both must be held in the physical and temporal context of the Old Testament Economies.

No man was made perfect concerning remission of sins, that is a basic truth not open for debate, it is simply the fact.

Consider:


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.



Christ obtained Eternal Redemption, and in doing so redeemed the transgression "which were under the Law," or, in other words, redeemed the sins of those who died prior to the establishment of the New Covenant by Christ. It is at this time those "justified" in Old Testament Economies were made perfect.

We see the contrast drawn between the Church and the Old Testament Saint here:



Hebrews 12:22-24
King James Version (KJV)


22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.



In other words, they were made complete in regards to remission of sins when Christ died in their stead.

The "blood of sprinkling" in view is Christ's Death, and it is contrasted with Abel's sacrifice, which is the pattern for all Old Testament Economies from Adam until Calvary. Abraham, though justified, died offering up the very sacrifices which we just looked at, those which could not make perfect/complete in regards to remission of sins, because they could not take away sins, or, the penalty for sin (death, and, the Second Death).

Paul also speaks about that here:


Romans 3:21-26
King James Version (KJV)


21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.



Again (in green) we see the remission of sins retroactively applied to those who were under Law.

Before Paul speaks about Abraham being justified by faith he makes it clear that at this time the Righteousness of Christ is declared, and it is His righteousness through which men are Justified, and quite unlike what you say...

It requires works to back up their claims of being footstep followers of the Christ. (James 2:24-26)



...we are Justified freely by GOd, and that, my friend, is how we are able to perform the works of the Law, or in other words, walk in His statutes and keep His judgments.


Continued...
 

S.T.Ranger

Member

They are commanded to carry on his work of preaching the "good news" (Matthew 24:14; 28:19, 20)

While men do play a role in the conveyance of the Gospel of Christ, let us not forget Who does the convicting and saving:


John 16:7-9
King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;



The Comforter is the Spirit of Grace spoken of in Hebrews 10:29.

He saves us...


Titus 3:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;



No man or woman can achieve righteousness on an eternal level, either before or after salvation...in unredeemed flesh.


S.T.Ranger said:
Understanding what "perfection" means is the hard part, though, not so hard, one must simply keep this statement in context of both the Chapter it is found in as well as the larger body of the Book of Hebrews.

Romans 5:1-2 YLT
"Having been declared righteous, then, by faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have the access by the faith into this grace in which we have stood, and we boast on the hope of the glory of God."


The YLT puts it rather well I thought. Being "declared righteous" in spite of being in imperfect flesh is what Paul had in mind here.

Correct. We are declared righteous based on the Work of Christ. We have been made perfect in regards to remission of sins, and we have been reconciled (peace with GOd as opposed to be at enmity with God, as all men were prior to the Cross and Pentecost, for, God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself).


He lamented about the frustrations of a mind subject to Christ but a body subject to sin. (Romans 7:21-25) Where was Paul's "perfection"? Only when the sinful body is abandoned and a new spiritual body provided, would Paul experience true perfection.

That's odd, because Christ makes it clear "...be ye perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect."

Now either He is saying one must be sinless, or, He is saying that the righteousness of God is imputed to men. And when we take away the mistaken notion that Christ's statement demands perfection at that time, no more than men could believe on a Resurrection not revealed to them, or be born again apart from Eternal Indwelling, or, abide in Christ...

...it becomes rather simple to understand. His declaration foretells what will happen, as much of His teaching does (i.e., John 14, Matthew 24).


S.T.Ranger said:
This translation is questionable.


It was taken from The Complete Jewish Bible, perhaps less likely to bring in bias from the teachings of Christendom,

Hardly, lol, it adds to the Word of God that which is not in the original text, and the only reason to do that is that one seeks to impose their bias into the text.



which I believe the KJV often does.

I would agree to a certain extent, but, I am one that thinks the KJV translators were fairly astute in their Doctrine, though I have a few complaints, as I do in every translation.

But we do not rely on translations, do we Deeje? We must study the original languages to make sure, just as in the case of Perfection...that we don't miss anything. Now, tell me, had you ever given any consideration to the perfection in Hebrews prior to my post?


Continued...
 
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S.T.Ranger

Member
I have a dislike for the KJV...sorry. It is more questionable than most others in its renderings in my experience. :(

It's a great translation, so, it is I that am sorry for you.

I would ask you to show what you think is questionable, but, would rather not derail the issues being discussed, so I am quite content with your dislike of the KJV. If I use a passage that you find questionable in it's translation, point it out, we will discuss it.


S.T.Ranger said:
King James Version (KJV)

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


The word rendered "schoolmaster" is misleading here. The word in Greek is "paidagōgos" and it means "tutor". A tutor of Bible times was generally, not the actual teacher, but the one who accompanied the child to and from school and possibly in other activities as well. He would turn the child over to the instructor. This continued from childhood to perhaps puberty or longer. He was to keep the child from physical or moral harm.

That is a far different concept of the "schoolmaster than I have ever heard, or which Strong's implies:

A tutor i.e. a guardian and guide of boys. Among the Greeks and the Romans the name was applied to trustworthy slaves who were charged with the duty of supervising the life and morals of boys belonging to the better class. The boys were not allowed so much as to step out of the house without them before arriving at the age of manhood.

Nevertheless, the focus is not so much the schoolmaster, but...the Master.

The Faith of Christ is something unique, in regards to Justification, to this Age. Prior to their/our being loosed from the Law, the Law was the Economy ordained by GOd until Christ should come.

That is the focus.


The Law was a means to an end and it reminded Jews every day that they were sinners in need of their Messiah and his Kingdom.

On the contrary, the Law was not a "means to an end," because it could not bring us to the "end," or, make us complete.

The Law was a means of justification in that Age, but again, it could not bring life:


Galatians 3:21-22
King James Version (KJV)

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.



No-one received life because everyone sinned. Life was the promise of God and this is achieved through faith in Christ.


S.T.Ranger said:
So while we might not be perfect in regards to progressive sanctification, we are in fact made complete in Christ, and because we are born again, which is the result of being brought into Eternal Union with God, we are able to walk in His statutes and keep His judgments:


It is not a guarantee of personal salvation however. Even those who once walked in God's ways can deviate and lose their salvation. (2 Peter 2:20-22)

You are correct, it is not a guarantee, it is an explicit statement of it.

And I am sorry, but Peter at no time teaches loss of salvation for those who are born again. The context of your proof texts is that of false teachers, and I wonder if you would take a moment to see that, just as in Hebrews 10:26-29, in view are those who reject the knowledge of the truth:


2 Peter 2:20-22
King James Version (KJV)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.



Now consider Peter's statement about those who are born again:


1 Peter 1
King James Version (KJV)

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.



We must keep in mind that the "salvation" in view here is not the salvation we have already received through Christ, but, salvation from that which is corruptible, defiled, and fades away (our temporal existence). Ultimately this speaks of the Eternal State but also has application to the body which we receive when our bodies are redeemed:

Paul speaks of this here:


2 Corinthians 5
King James Version (KJV)

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.



...and here...


1 Corinthians 15:51-54
King James Version (KJV)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.



The popular notion that men cannot know the truth unless regenerated is contradicted by many passages, but, the equally erroneous tendency of many groups to bring conflict to the Word of God by teaching loss of salvation which conflicts with clear teaching that salvation is eternal leads to great confusion for those who believe.


Continued...
 

S.T.Ranger

Member
S.T.Ranger said:

Ezekiel 36:24-27
King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Exactly, no Christian can 'walk in God's statutes' without the aid of his spirit....and no one can come to the Christ without an invitation from the Father.

And the point I think you are missing is that this is Prophecy and Promise.

It is not taking place in the day it is given, and this is the same Promise Christ is teaching about in John 14, and is referenced as His teaching by Himself here...


Acts 1:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.



In simpler terms, what He is saying is "Wait for the Promise of the Father I taught you about, fo though john baptized with water, you will be immersed into God not many days hence."

In view is the Eternal Union Christ teaches in John 14.

The implication is that men could not walk in His statutes and keep His judgments, which is testified of over and over throughout Scripture, and would not until the Promise of the New Covenant was kept:


Hebrews 8:10-13
King James Version (KJV)

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.




(John 6:44) He chooses us as much as we choose him.

The natural man cannot "choose God." We love Him because He first lived us, remember?

The "choice" only becomes available when one comes under conviction through the Ministry of the Holy Spirit. Until then, the natural man is blind to his condition as we as to the REmedy.


And just as a sidepoint...one of the things I dislike most about the KJV is the old terminology.

Sorry to hear that, because I love it, lol.


Calling someone a "heathen" is rather insulting. "From among the nations" is so much more apt, and non condemnatory, don't you think?
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No worse than being called a sinner, in my view. I am not overly worried about people being offended by terms in the KJV, but have more concern for the conviction that comes when the Word of God is conveyed.

Now, if people go around calling those they witness to heathens, that is a different story, lol.

Hey thanks for the response, Deeje.


God bless.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member

I understand that......I used this translation because it is probably more "Jewish" in its renderings than anything translated by Christendom's scholars. I trust that Jews understand the language and culture of their own people way better than any others. Since Jesus was Jewish and so were all the NT writers, I always consult its renderings out of interest.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Absolutely false as the issue of the Messiah is a relatively minor one, plus it's really not clear exactly what the Messiah is to be like. And since Jesus didn't actually fulfill them, ...

Metis...has anyone ever in the history of Israel, made an appearance claiming to be the Messiah, who fulfilled more messianic prophesy than Jesus did? I can give you a list of all the prophesies he fulfilled. It is impressive, though Jews deny them for obvious reasons.

Why has the Jewish Messiah not made an appearance in all the years that Jews expected him? Why has God not blessed Israel? (Isaiah 1:15) What are Jews actually waiting for?

According to the prophesies in Daniel, the Messiah was to make his appearance exactly when Jesus did. (Luke 3:15-16) He was to be "cut off" exactly when Jesus was executed. John the Baptist was accepted as a prophet in Israel and he clearly identified Jesus as the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world". (John 1:29-34)

Both of John’s parents were of the priestly house of Aaron. Zechariah was a priest of the division of Abijah. (Luke 1:5-6)
Like Jesus, John's miraculous birth was announced by the angel Gabriel. (Luke 1:7-17) The very same Gabriel who appeared to Daniel. (Daniel 8:15-16)

John began his preaching in the Wilderness of Judea, saying: “Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.” (Matthew 3:1-2) He wore clothing of camel hair and a leather girdle around his loins, similar to the dress of the prophet Elijah. (2 Kings 1:8; Matthew 3:4; Mark 1:6) He was a teacher and was, accordingly, called “Rabbi” by his disciples. (John 3:26)

Daniel's prophecy of the "seventy weeks" (Daniel 9:24-26) pointed to Messiah's appearance in the year 29 C.E.; his death at “the half of the week” or in the middle of the last week of years, that is, in 33 C.E.; and the end of the period of God’s special favor to the Jews in 36 C.E. Thus, the 70 weeks (of years) closed with the conversion of Cornelius, 490 years from the year 455 B.C.E. (Acts 10:30-33, 44-48; 11:1)

So, Jesus’ appearance as the Messiah came in the precise year foretold, perhaps about six months after John the Baptizer began his preaching in “the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar.” (Luke 1:36; 3:1, 2, 21-23)

If Jesus truly was the Messiah, what have the Jews achieved by denying him? What did they lose by rejecting him? :(
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
I understand that......I used this translation because it is probably more "Jewish" in its renderings than anything translated by Christendom's scholars. I trust that Jews understand the language and culture of their own people way better than any others. Since Jesus was Jewish and so were all the NT writers, I always consult its renderings out of interest.
It is not. If you want a translation that is more "Jewish" ask a Jew, not a Christian. I would recommend (in terms of texts available online) this one The Complete Tanach with Rashi's Commentary - English translation with Rashi's commentary
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
This issue being addressed by myself is why did God choose Jews to be the "chosen", and there are various theories on this, but the one that tends to attract the most support is that we, through Abraham, chose to recognize and worship the One God.

Genesis 22:15-18 tells us clearly why God chose Israel.
"The angel of Adonai called to Avraham a second time out of heaven. 16 He said, “I have sworn by myself — says Adonai — that because you have done this, because you haven’t withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will most certainly bless you; and I will most certainly increase your descendants to as many as there are stars in the sky or grains of sand on the seashore. Your descendants will possess the cities of their enemies, 18 and by your descendants all the nations of the earth will be blessed — because you obeyed my order.” (CJB)

God made a "sworn oath" to Abraham to bless him and his descendants because of his absolute faith and trust in his God, not withholding even his most precious son when God commanded it. The object lesson is not lost on Christians, who see The Sovereign Lord Yahweh not withholding his precious son when the law of God commanded it. ("eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life") God's laws are so perfect, that God himself abides by them. To atone for the perfect life that Adam lost for his children, only the laying down of an equivalent "perfect" life would pay the debt and release Adam's children from sin and death.

But Jesus certainly did not fulfill all of them, therefore he cannot be declared to be the "Messiah" unless one lets their "guesswork" take over. Even some Christian theologians recognize that.

Metis, Jesus fulfilled the prophesies....Judaism will not recognize them because of what it means for them as a nation. Imagine what would happen if they admitted that they were wrong about Jesus...? Messianic Jews already do.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
It is not. If you want a translation that is more "Jewish" ask a Jew, not a Christian. I would recommend (in terms of texts available online) this one The Complete Tanach with Rashi's Commentary - English translation with Rashi's commentary

Thank you for the reference. The Hebrew is "Greek" to me but no doubt meaningful to Jewish believers.
I will use this reference in future when comparing scripture. :)

Genesis 22:15-18 reads:

And an angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven. טווַיִּקְרָא מַלְאַךְ יְהֹוָה אֶל אַבְרָהָם שֵׁנִית מִן הַשָּׁמָיִם:
16 And he said, "By Myself have I sworn, says the Lord, that because you have done this thing and you did not withhold your son, your only one, טזוַיֹּאמֶר בִּי נִשְׁבַּעְתִּי נְאֻם יְהֹוָה כִּי יַעַן אֲשֶׁר עָשִׂיתָ אֶת הַדָּבָר הַזֶּה וְלֹא חָשַׂכְתָּ אֶת בִּנְךָ אֶת יְחִידֶךָ:
17 That I will surely bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand that is on the seashore, and your descendants will inherit the cities of their enemies. יזכִּי בָרֵךְ אֲבָרֶכְךָ וְהַרְבָּה אַרְבֶּה אֶת זַרְעֲךָ כְּכוֹכְבֵי הַשָּׁמַיִם וְכַחוֹל אֲשֶׁר עַל שְׂפַת הַיָּם וְיִרַשׁ זַרְעֲךָ אֵת שַׁעַר אֹיְבָיו:
18 And through your children shall be blessed all the nations of the world, because you hearkened to My voice."

It says the same as other Bibles in this verse, but I am keen to check out other renderings.

Thanks again.

Edit:
After some research, I have also just discovered the "Tree of Life" version, used by some Messianic Jews. As I need a translation that includes the NT, I will continue to use the CJB for NT renderings and also the ToL version. The Complete Tanach will be my 'go to' translation for Hebrew scripture in comparing renderings. :)
 
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Tumah

Veteran Member
I understand that......I used this translation because it is probably more "Jewish" in its renderings than anything translated by Christendom's scholars. I trust that Jews understand the language and culture of their own people way better than any others. Since Jesus was Jewish and so were all the NT writers, I always consult its renderings out of interest.
It is a Christian translation translated by Christian scholars. All they did was change some words to make it look like how they think Jews talk in order to make it seem more authentic to Jews and open them to the possibility of embracing Christianity. But its a completely Christian Bible and follows the Christian tradition of subterfuge to win converts.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
It is a Christian translation translated by Christian scholars. All they did was change some words to make it look like how they think Jews talk in order to make it seem more authentic to Jews and open them to the possibility of embracing Christianity. But its a completely Christian Bible and follows the Christian tradition of subterfuge to win converts.

Many Jews have seen the benefit of 'embracing Christianity', accepting the fact that Messiah came and fulfilled the messianic prophesies as part of his role back in the first century, and in these last days is about to return as King to establish his kingdom on earth. (Daniel 2:44; Daniel 7:13-14) Jesus' disciples believed in him in spite of the objections raised by the Pharisees at the time, and to the present day.

I know that Messianic Jews do not take on the title of "Christian", believing that Paul was the instigator of that sect.
Its a rather confusing situation. So many ways to consider the man, Jesus. Who is correct? How do you know?
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Many Jews have seen the benefit of 'embracing Christianity', accepting the fact that Messiah came and fulfilled the messianic prophesies as part of his role back in the first century, and in these last days is about to return as King to establish his kingdom on earth. (Daniel 2:44; Daniel 7:13-14) Jesus' disciples believed in him in spite of the objections raised by the Pharisees at the time, and to the present day.
And many Jews have seen the benefit of embracing Islam and Hinduism and Buddhism. We know. But the only ones who are deceitful in their efforts are the Christians. I guess in following with the tradition of 1 Cor. 9:20, Eusebius and Martin Luther.

I know that Messianic Jews do not take on the title of "Christian", believing that Paul was the instigator of that sect.
More like, because its easier to catch Jews when you call yourself a Jew [pretend to] talk like a Jew and [seem to] act like a Jew. We've all seen it. If it was about Paul, they wouldn't be acting like Ashkenazi Jews.

Its a rather confusing situation. So many ways to consider the man, Jesus. Who is correct?
We are.
How do you know?
Because its obvious.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Metis...has anyone ever in the history of Israel, made an appearance claiming to be the Messiah, who fulfilled more messianic prophesy than Jesus did? I can give you a list of all the prophesies he fulfilled. It is impressive, though Jews deny them for obvious reasons.
Well, let's see how many Jesus "fulfilled":

The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)

Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4)

The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)

He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8–10)

The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)

Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)

Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)

He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)

There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)

All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)

The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)

He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)

Nations will recognize the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5)

For My House (the Temple in Jerusalem) shall be called a house of prayer for all nations (Isaiah 56:3–7)

The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)

The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)

Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)

The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvoth

He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)

Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)

He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)

He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13–15, Ezekiel 36:29–30, Isaiah 11:6–9)



Why has the Jewish Messiah not made an appearance in all the years that Jews expected him?

If Jesus truly was the Messiah, what have the Jews achieved by denying him? What did they lose by rejecting him?
Even some Christian theologians believe that Jesus will only be the Messiah when he returns and fulfills all prophecies, which he obviously hasn't done thus far. Therefore, it's not only Jews that are waiting.

Also, I really don't get into this Messiah stuff because I'm a skeptic.
 
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