Lack of Believe vs Belief in Lack of

[Milton Platt]

I've seen many atheists distinguish that they 'lack belief in a god' instead of "believe God doesn't exist".

I'm not sure I fully understand. How does one lack a stance on something, if they have thought about the subject? A rock would lack a belief on God, but a conscious being would, if they had thought about it, hold a belief on it, wouldn't they?

If you look out into the universe, see how everything is, and contemplate whether it seems this is a work of an entity or forces of nature, wouldn't you say it seems more likely to you that it seems like something brought upon by natural forces?

This isn't to say you claim to know it or prove it, but it is an opinion drawn from personal experience which makes it seem more likely that a God doesn't exist than God does exist.

Of course, there are some who are 50/50, but I see the same folks that claim to lack a belief in God (rather than believing God doesn't exist) but can give reasons why the universe seems godless to them. There is the lack of evidence that could fall into lack of belief, but then there are arguments such as how everything can be explained without God, the problem of evil (well, accounts for an omnipotent/omnibenevolent deity only), that religions relate to human fantasy or personality, and probably others.

While I do believe in God, I can understand why someone would think otherwise, having thought otherwise at a time in my life. But just because these atheists in question say they have no evidence so they make no claim, doesn't mean they necessary lack an opinion on the subject. What you 'know' and what you 'believe' are two different things - one is certain, the other is opinion.

I guess what I'm saying is, just because you can't prove your side and thus claim you could be wrong, doesn't necessarily mean you lack a belief on the matter. You could host a stance at the same time consider it possible this stance is wrong.

In the same way I believe Atlantis is not real, but I could be wrong.


Peace

You are talking about a large number of individuals, so no one person (me included) can really speak for all. That being said, my opinion is I think most atheists are simply trying to say that because of lack of good evidence for and some good evidence against a deity existing, they have no reason to believe one does, but that there is not 100% certainty. This because theists often push for 100% certainty (absolute knowledge). Those particular people do not realize that this pretty much leaves them with belief in absolutely nothing as well, because it eliminates pretty much all knowledge. I need to state here that this is not nearly all theists......some try very hard to have a rational and reasoned discussion. But it has been presented so often that "you cannot know absolutely" that it becomes tiresome to travel the same road over and over.

You also get the "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" statement. And yet it actually is often evidence of absence. If you go to the doctor and have him screen you for cancer and the tests come back negative, would you tell him to put you on Chemotherapy???

As for me, I simply state that I am an atheist because I do not believe any god (s) exist based upon the evidence I have been presented with so far by theists, and the evidence I see that strongly suggests that there are no gods. You can pigeon-hole me any way you wish, it just does not matter to me. If someone insists to me that there is a god of some sort or another, I am open to convincing evidence. But there has been none to date. The ball is in their court and not mine. I do not have to prove their version of god does not exist any more than I have to prove there aren't green aliens on a planet in some distant solar system.

 

[1137]

Atheists make no "truth claim". They just don't believe in the existence of gods.

Could you please elaborate on the difference between "I don't think anything divine exists" and "I believe nothing divine exists?" Hint: there's literally none.

 

[LuisDantas]

As a brief aside, the lack of belief claim is great for avoiding the burden of proof.

In the sense that there is no burden of proof without any need for proof, sure.

 

[1137]

So all I have to do is say "I don't believe the universe is godless" and atheists will leave me be? Ha!

 

[ArtieE]

Could you please elaborate on the difference between "I don't think anything divine exists" and "I believe nothing divine exists?" Hint: there's literally none.

There's a big difference between not believing something and actively believing the opposite. The difference between saying "I don't have any beliefs regarding gods" and "I believe gods don't exist".

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I've seen many atheists distinguish that they 'lack belief in a god' instead of "believe God doesn't exist".

Do theists make the same distinction?

"Have belief in a god" instead of "believe God does exist"?

 

[Altfish]

Atheists make a truth claim where most theists confess belief. If anything, the burden of proof is solely on atheism in such a case.

I'd argue with that, atheists don't claim any truth; they just state that there is no evidence of a god or gods. Atheists have looked for the evidence and not found it, we continue to look and if any evidence appears of a god we will change our minds.

 

[Altfish]

The power of belief is seen in manifestation.
My beliefs and my life should line up.

If i say i am a christian and my God has the power to change lives but my life does not change as a result of my belief then there is no power behind the belief, it is not genuine, it is just words.

The power of which i speak is not the physical power of which you speak, but rather of an unseen force that exists within us.
It is the power of the truth to transform lives through the act of living out one's beliefs.
This power is manifested through the way in which we live our lives, the physical accomplishments of which you speak being the manifestation of that power.

If everyone were to act on their highest ideal everyday the world would be transformed through the power that the truth has to change lives.
Our highest ideals begin by being beliefs, thus the hidden power of belief to change lives.

Any chance of you explaining that in a language I understand?
I have no "unseen force that exists within us" if I achieve something it has nothing to do with 'power' it is because I make it happen or others make it happen.

 

[Curious George]

I've seen many atheists distinguish that they 'lack belief in a god' instead of "believe God doesn't exist".

I'm not sure I fully understand. How does one lack a stance on something, if they have thought about the subject? A rock would lack a belief on God, but a conscious being would, if they had thought about it, hold a belief on it, wouldn't they?

If you look out into the universe, see how everything is, and contemplate whether it seems this is a work of an entity or forces of nature, wouldn't you say it seems more likely to you that it seems like something brought upon by natural forces?

This isn't to say you claim to know it or prove it, but it is an opinion drawn from personal experience which makes it seem more likely that a God doesn't exist than God does exist.

Of course, there are some who are 50/50, but I see the same folks that claim to lack a belief in God (rather than believing God doesn't exist) but can give reasons why the universe seems godless to them. There is the lack of evidence that could fall into lack of belief, but then there are arguments such as how everything can be explained without God, the problem of evil (well, accounts for an omnipotent/omnibenevolent deity only), that religions relate to human fantasy or personality, and probably others.

While I do believe in God, I can understand why someone would think otherwise, having thought otherwise at a time in my life. But just because these atheists in question say they have no evidence so they make no claim, doesn't mean they necessary lack an opinion on the subject. What you 'know' and what you 'believe' are two different things - one is certain, the other is opinion.

I guess what I'm saying is, just because you can't prove your side and thus claim you could be wrong, doesn't necessarily mean you lack a belief on the matter. You could host a stance at the same time consider it possible this stance is wrong.

In the same way I believe Atlantis is not real, but I could be wrong.


Peace

I think the odd or even gumball reference is easiest to understand why people say they do not have a belief that God exists.

The idea to call this state atheism, comes from the belief that anything not theist= atheist. This analysis disregards problems with logic that arise, it causes equivocation, and includes unnecessary elements in atheism that seem to take away from the meaningfulness of the term atheist. The trade off is that it opens the door to utilize burden of proof arguments, bolsters the idea that atheism is simply the default state, and allows people to argue that babies are atheist.

But if you want to understand what people are saying when they say that they "lack belief" it is merely that nothing they have experienced or failed to experience has led them to conclude that the probability of God existing is any less than God not existing.

 

[allfoak]

Any chance of you explaining that in a language I understand?
I have no "unseen force that exists within us" if I achieve something it has nothing to do with 'power' it is because I make it happen or others make it happen.

I understand it is difficult to separate who we are from that which gives us life but certainly death teaches us there is a difference.

The unseen force within.
It is our birthright, our inheritance.
It is the force that gives us life.
When we use up our inheritance, or die because we have finished what we came to do, the life force leaves the body.
It is the force that we call life, when we no longer have it, we call that death.
This is not some mysterious thing i am talking about.
The mystery is that it is both part of us and also separate from us.

This is not something that man can create, it is what we use in order to create.
Do not think this power we have that allows us to exist and create is something that belongs to us, what we have is only ours to the degree that we use it properly, it can be taken at any time.

So what it is that we achieve in this life should be a humbling experience, knowing that our ability to do so is a gift from that which is our source of life.
It is the power of which is lacking in organized religion.
It is the power to change lives.

 

[1137]

I have to be honest, this is all so silly from a philosophical perspective. You're weighing evidence and experience then making a judgement on it, which is identical to what theism does. As I said, by this logic, all a theist has to do is say they don't believe in a godless/materialistic universe and they're off the hook. My opinion? If you won't and/or can't support your opinion don't make claims or even judgements!

 

[ArtieE]

I have to be honest, this is all so silly from a philosophical perspective. You're weighing evidence and experience then making a judgement on it, which is identical to what theism does. As I said, by this logic, all a theist has to do is say they don't believe in a godless/materialistic universe and they're off the hook. My opinion? If you won't and/or can't support your opinion don't make claims or even judgements!

1. Weak atheists make no judgments or claims and have nothing to support.
2. Strong atheists believe gods don't exist and you can ask them to support their belief with evidence.
3. Theists believe one or more gods exist and you can ask them to support their belief with evidence.
4. Theists believe the rest of the gods don't exist and you can ask them to support that belief with evidence too.

 

[McBell]

I have to be honest, this is all so silly from a philosophical perspective. You're weighing evidence and experience then making a judgement on it, which is identical to what theism does. As I said, by this logic, all a theist has to do is say they don't believe in a godless/materialistic universe and they're off the hook. My opinion? If you won't and/or can't support your opinion don't make claims or even judgements!

nope.
They are not off the hook.
Just like the atheists who claim god does not exist are not off the hook.

However, there are atheists who do not have an active belief concerning god.
Meaning, they do not believe god exists, but also do not believe god does not exist.

 

[1137]

nope.
They are not off the hook.
Just like the atheists who claim god does not exist are not off the hook.

However, there are atheists who do not have an active belief concerning god.
Meaning, they do not believe god exists, but also do not believe god does not exist.

It would be definitionally impossible to be an atheist without making a judgement on gods. These are all fancy ways to try and push the burden of proof onto others.

 

[LuisDantas]

So all I have to do is say "I don't believe the universe is godless" and atheists will leave me be? Ha!

We are supposed to.

 

[McBell]

It would be definitionally impossible to be an atheist without making a judgement on gods.

For you it may well be.
But not everyone has your restrictions

These are all fancy ways to try and push the burden of proof onto others.

the one making the claim has the burden.
period.

 

[Altfish]

1. Weak atheists make no judgments or claims and have nothing to support.
2. Strong atheists believe gods don't exist and you can ask them to support their belief with evidence.
3. Theists believe one or more gods exist and you can ask them to support their belief with evidence.
4. Theists believe the rest of the gods don't exist and you can ask them to support that belief with evidence too.

All fine except for 2.
How do you prove something doesn't exist? I don't believe in fairies but I can't prove they don't exist.

 

[ArtieE]

All fine except for 2.
How do you prove something doesn't exist? I don't believe in fairies but I can't prove they don't exist.

When it comes to the Christian God as described in the Bible he can't exist because he's supposed to be omnipotent but can't defeat iron chariots, the Bible says he can't be seen and yet brings testimonies by people who clearly have seen him and on and on. Such a god can't exist any more than a married bachelor can exist.

 

[Willamena]

Atheists make no "truth claim". They just don't believe in the existence of gods.

I do, and I'm an atheist.

Oh, right... we hard atheists aren't atheists.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I don't believe in fairies but I can't prove they don't exist.

Here's some evidence!