"Lack of belief"

[1137]

Sorry, I might post a few ideas I've been sharing elsewhere (which drove me to remember the one forum that actually matters for this stuff), do bear with me!

Why can I, as a theist, not simply say "I lack a belief in a godless universe" or "I lack a belief in materialism", anything of the sort? I've never liked the claim that an atheist lacks a belief. On both sides you have people making the call on god or no god based on experience, reason, and evidence. Put these behind a currently unproven ideology and you have a belief, whether positive or negative. Worse, I don't see the problem with understanding atheism as a judgement call, a stance, a belief. I didn't even see the problem when I WAS and atheist. So what's your take on the whole "lack of belief" debate?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

My general worldview, and atheism as one of its aspects/conclusions, isn't lacking anything. I don't see not believing in god as deficient in any way.

 

[Ouroboros]

My take on it is that it's a very, very touchy subject, and every time we have this discussion things get extremely heated.

 

[Skwim]

Sorry, I might post a few ideas I've been sharing elsewhere (which drove me to remember the one forum that actually matters for this stuff), do bear with me!

Why can I, as a theist, not simply say "I lack a belief in a godless universe" or "I lack a belief in materialism", anything of the sort?

Be our guest.

I've never liked the claim that an atheist lacks a belief.

Atheists do lack a belief in god, so what's not to like?

On both sides you have people making the call on god or no god based on experience, reason, and evidence. Put these behind a currently unproven ideology and you have a belief, whether positive or negative. Worse,

"Worse"!!! what's so bad about what you've said?

I don't see the problem with understanding atheism as a judgement call, a stance, a belief. I didn't even see the problem when I WAS and atheist. So what's your take on the whole "lack of belief" debate?

Not sure how the debate you're talking about plays out, but as I understand any such debate, it would be pointless. Atheism is nothing more than the denial of an assertion, A denial pretty much predicated on the lack of convincing evidence. No different than denying the claim that pink unicorns exist. What's to debate?

 

[Jumi]

If you lack belief in a godless universe then what it is that you believe? You don't need to believe in a godless universe to be an atheist either.

 

[McBell]

Sorry, I might post a few ideas I've been sharing elsewhere (which drove me to remember the one forum that actually matters for this stuff), do bear with me!

Why can I, as a theist, not simply say "I lack a belief in a godless universe" or "I lack a belief in materialism", anything of the sort? I've never liked the claim that an atheist lacks a belief. On both sides you have people making the call on god or no god based on experience, reason, and evidence. Put these behind a currently unproven ideology and you have a belief, whether positive or negative. Worse, I don't see the problem with understanding atheism as a judgement call, a stance, a belief. I didn't even see the problem when I WAS and atheist. So what's your take on the whole "lack of belief" debate?

My take is that anyone who makes the claim that I believe god does not exist is just flat out wrong.
I LACK a belief concerning god either way.

 

[Jumi]

My take is that anyone who makes the claim that I believe god does not exist is just flat out wrong.
I LACK a belief concerning god either way.

That would make you an a-theist.

 

[Acim]

Why can I, as a theist, not simply say "I lack a belief in a godless universe" or "I lack a belief in materialism", anything of the sort?

Why can't you? Is there some trademark on "lack of belief" and how that must be used?

I've never liked the claim that an atheist lacks a belief. On both sides you have people making the call on god or no god based on experience, reason, and evidence. Put these behind a currently unproven ideology and you have a belief, whether positive or negative. Worse, I don't see the problem with understanding atheism as a judgement call, a stance, a belief. I didn't even see the problem when I WAS and atheist. So what's your take on the whole "lack of belief" debate?

I used to dislike it, struggle with it and want to debate it (with fervor). Not so much anymore. Up to the individual. If any individual wants to make it political by either establishing a state religion / religious practice or establishing a perceived wall to appease their 'lack of belief,' I may become a bit more invested in the discussion, suggested policies. Most of the time, I don't care that much cause under (possible) worst case scenario in seems to not amount to much. At least in the U.S., thus far.

I think it also helps theist types (like myself) to realize we are highly likely to be atheists of some sort (lacking belief) of god(s) - that don't agree with our doctrines, perspective, experience, etc. And I would consider myself to be less atheistic in this manner than perhaps other theists. If one calls God of their understanding say Zeus, FSM, brahma while I reference it as Love, I don't see one as inherently better than the other, though realize one makes more sense to me.

 

[viole]

Sorry, I might post a few ideas I've been sharing elsewhere (which drove me to remember the one forum that actually matters for this stuff), do bear with me!

Why can I, as a theist, not simply say "I lack a belief in a godless universe" or "I lack a belief in materialism", anything of the sort? I've never liked the claim that an atheist lacks a belief. On both sides you have people making the call on god or no god based on experience, reason, and evidence. Put these behind a currently unproven ideology and you have a belief, whether positive or negative. Worse, I don't see the problem with understanding atheism as a judgement call, a stance, a belief. I didn't even see the problem when I WAS and atheist. So what's your take on the whole "lack of belief" debate?

It does not apply to the atheist here. For, I do not lack belief in God. I do not even believe that there is no God.

i know that God does not exist.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Quintessence]

So what's your take on the whole "lack of belief" debate?

I find it idiotic. At best, a red herring-like distraction from topics of significant substance or importance. Granted, I also feel that way about the alleged theist/atheist dichotomy...

 

[Augustus]

My take on it is that it's a very, very touchy subject, and every time we have this discussion things get extremely heated.

It will be different this time though because I've bought a brand new dictionary so I can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am correct.

 

[Yerda]

Why can I, as a theist, not simply say "I lack a belief in a godless universe" or "I lack a belief in materialism", anything of the sort?

Dunno. Why can't you?

So what's your take on the whole "lack of belief" debate?

I'd be happy never to hear of it again.

 

[1137]

It does not apply to the atheist here. For, I do not lack belief in God. I do not even believe that there is no God.

i know that God does not exist.

Ciao

- viole

So Gnosticism?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Sorry, I might post a few ideas I've been sharing elsewhere (which drove me to remember the one forum that actually matters for this stuff), do bear with me!

Why can I, as a theist, not simply say "I lack a belief in a godless universe" or "I lack a belief in materialism", anything of the sort? I've never liked the claim that an atheist lacks a belief. On both sides you have people making the call on god or no god based on experience, reason, and evidence. Put these behind a currently unproven ideology and you have a belief, whether positive or negative. Worse, I don't see the problem with understanding atheism as a judgement call, a stance, a belief. I didn't even see the problem when I WAS and atheist. So what's your take on the whole "lack of belief" debate?

I dumb it down to grammar and leave it at that. A theist believes god exist. An atheist believes the opposite. A- being the key here.

Everything else people attribute to what atheism and atheist means sounds personal. I never understood why not believing in something can be personal unless what they dont believe in some how has a weird way of affecting them.

 

[George-ananda]

Sorry, I might post a few ideas I've been sharing elsewhere (which drove me to remember the one forum that actually matters for this stuff), do bear with me!

Why can I, as a theist, not simply say "I lack a belief in a godless universe" or "I lack a belief in materialism", anything of the sort? I've never liked the claim that an atheist lacks a belief. On both sides you have people making the call on god or no god based on experience, reason, and evidence. Put these behind a currently unproven ideology and you have a belief, whether positive or negative. Worse, I don't see the problem with understanding atheism as a judgement call, a stance, a belief. I didn't even see the problem when I WAS and atheist. So what's your take on the whole "lack of belief" debate?

I see by the posts here you are not back in loving arms. I think you made some good points here. It is all a judgement call in the end. I have a 'lack of belief in materialism' because of my personal judgement on all evidence.

 

[Erebus]

So what's your take on the whole "lack of belief" debate?

In theory, I don't have a problem with it. There are atheists on this forum who I would say just lack belief in a god. Their atheism is pretty straightforward and I don't begrudge them claiming lack of belief.

Of course you know there's a whopping great "however" coming along now

I've found that the people who are the most likely to use the lack of belief claim are often the ones it's the least applicable to. By and large, the atheists who I would consider as simply not having a belief don't make a big deal about it. It's the ones who say theism is ridiculous, compare gods to invisible pink unicorns or sometimes outright state "there are no gods" who are the first to throw up the "I just lack belief" defense. Now that irritates me. In those situations it becomes little more than an evasive maneuver.

By way of contrast, take this for example:

It does not apply to the atheist here. For, I do not lack belief in God. I do not even believe that there is no God.

i know that God does not exist.

Ciao

- viole

Even though I disagree (I'm a theist after all) I can respect that a hell of a lot more than somebody who feels this way, but hides behind a claim of "I just lack belief."

 

[Father Heathen]

It does not apply to the atheist here. For, I do not lack belief in God. I do not even believe that there is no God.

i know that God does not exist.

Ciao

- viole

Interesting. Not even science makes such an assertion.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Sorry, I might post a few ideas I've been sharing elsewhere (which drove me to remember the one forum that actually matters for this stuff), do bear with me!

Why can I, as a theist, not simply say "I lack a belief in a godless universe" or "I lack a belief in materialism", anything of the sort? I've never liked the claim that an atheist lacks a belief. On both sides you have people making the call on god or no god based on experience, reason, and evidence. Put these behind a currently unproven ideology and you have a belief, whether positive or negative. Worse, I don't see the problem with understanding atheism as a judgement call, a stance, a belief. I didn't even see the problem when I WAS and atheist. So what's your take on the whole "lack of belief" debate?

I've always been an advocate for a broad definition of atheism as a lack of belief, and I have never really heard a reasonable justification for that definition of atheism to be narrowed. Your response of "lacking a belief in a Godless universe" simply makes no sense, because you're still asserting a belief in something that an atheist inherently lacks. You are still the one claiming that a God or Gods exist to someone who doesn't believe in a God or Gods, so you haven't somehow magically slipped the reins of the burden of proof.

Personally, I've always found the endless debates on this subject absurd and frustrating. Why are people so hung up on a definition of a word and how some people choose to use a broad definition of that term? Why is it so upsetting or difficult for people to simply understand that atheism can be a broad concept free of a lot of the ideological baggage people can put on it? It's just silly to me how angry people get about something so utterly simple and trivial, when the solution lies entirely in just separating the term "atheist" from any subconscious baggage you have attached to it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why can I, as a theist, not simply say "I lack a belief in a godless universe" or "I lack a belief in materialism", anything of the sort?

Nothing's stopping you from doing that.

Now... what does that do for you? Is someone who "lacks belief in a godless universe" a theist? IMO, it would be weird to claim people who don't believe in any gods for theism; I've always assumed that you need to believe in at least one god to qualify.

I've never liked the claim that an atheist lacks a belief. On both sides you have people making the call on god or no god based on experience, reason, and evidence. Put these behind a currently unproven ideology and you have a belief, whether positive or negative.

While atheism isn't a belief, individual atheists have lots of beliefs... they just vary from person to person.

You can find atheists who ended up lacking belief in God because they came to some positive conclusions; feel free to ask them about what led to those conclusions.

Speaking for myself, I hold beliefs that are incompatible with every form of theism I've ever encountered; I can talk to you about why I'm a skeptic and a freethinker... that's no problem.

It's more difficult for me to explain why I don't accept beliefs I don't hold... unless you're happy with "I started out not accepting it and I haven't accepted it yet."

Worse, I don't see the problem with understanding atheism as a judgement call, a stance, a belief.

Exactly what is the "judgement call?" What's being judged, specifically?

I didn't even see the problem when I WAS and atheist.

The problem is that the word "god" is so vague, contradictory and generally useless that the only way we can form an opinion about "gods" as a group is to form an opinion about each god individually.

... but there are so many gods that no human being has even heard of all of them, let alone gotten enough details about each one to consider each of them and say "yeah - I don't think that exists."

You, I, and everyone else has no opinion about the vast majority of humanity's gods.

 

[Sees]

There definitely are degrees of certainty/doubt and people who just don't give a crap about the subject (or at least discussing it)...also lots of folks simply fearful of identification and firm stances. I think we can pretty much get a handle on certain labels attributable to a person even if they shy from them. The knowledge/idea transfer is most important - their acknowledgement and acceptance of bearing X flag matters little.