Labels as an Identity

[Neo Deist]

This was brought up in another thread, where the discussion got into defining labels, and people using those labels as their identity. In other words, label X was how they wanted to be identified. To give some examples of those labels:

Men are referred to as gay, but women are referred to as lesbians.

Some people are fine and say "I am a Christian," but others want to be denomination specific such as, "I am a Catholic."

Or, I am not just Jewish, I follow Reform Judaism, or Messianic Judaism.

In politics, libertarians are different from conservatives, and they will be very vocal about it.

All of these want the distinction known. It is how they identify. There are people here on RF they are very supportive of labels, and will be quick to chastise someone if they view them as mocking or harassing others, just because of their identity. Seeing this first hand begs the question:

What about Southerners in the USA that use that as their identity (American by birth, Southern by the grace of God)? Perhaps they have heritage dating back to the pre-Civil War era. Are the ones that champion the identity rights of others going to champion those that take pride in being Southern? If not, do they become a hypocrite? I would think so. I ask because I have seen it here and abroad.

Just some food for thought.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

What about Southerners in the USA that use that as their identity (American by birth, Southern by the grace of God)? Perhaps they have heritage dating back to the pre-Civil War era. Are the ones that champion the identity rights of others going to champion those that take pride in being Southern? If not, do they become a hypocrite? I would think so.

Not sure why this would be a problem. What do you think being Southern means?

I'm a Texan. Being a Texan is a thing. Being Southern is a thing.

Go for it, big guy.

 

[Neo Deist]

Not sure why this would be a problem. What do you think being Southern means?

I'm a Texan. Being a Texan is a thing. Being Southern is a thing.

Go for it, big guy.

I am from Alabama

Proud of my heritage too. I have no shame in saying that. I will never apologize for being who I am.

I am 42, and have gotten used to the stereotype. In all honesty, it does not bother me (sticks and stones) but the jokes do get old. Not like I haven't heard them 10,000 times before! Anywho...

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Who cares if someone is proud to be from the South, as long as it's not that neo-Confederate crap. I'm proud of my New Orleans heritage.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Labels that are given by a person to themselves presumably indicate something about that person.
If I told you I was a Nazi, you might have an issue with me, since you would assume the label was descriptive about my...well...social views.
We as a species commonly mistake labeling for reality, and it's certainly not. Still, if you keep context in focus, some labeling (and particularly self-labeling) can tell you something about a person.

 

[Quetzal]

I will speak from a political perspective for this post. I have found, that engaging in political discussion is a lot more enjoyable once I stopped identifying myself by a political group. It is easy to take criticisms of liberals personally, if I super glue that label to myself. What I am trying to do now is distance myself from that label. This allows me to be critical of all political platforms without thinking too harshly of myself as a hypocrite.

In the past, if someone said "Liberals are dummy dumbs because the ACA is not cost effective." My knee jerk reaction would be "HEY! I AM A LIBERAL, SCREW THAT GUY!" How helpful is that? It isn't. It is a lot easier now that I have decided to just say "Forget the labels, let's address this for what it is." So far so good. Just my experiences with labels.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

I am proud of my heritage too. I have no shame in saying that. I will never apologize for being who I am.

Well bless your heart.

As a Texan and Southerner, I have never been in a position where I have been refused goods, services, or basic human politeness as a result of those identifiers.

I only wish all humans could say the same.

 

[Revoltingest]

I will speak from a political perspective for this post. I have found, that engaging in political discussion is a lot more enjoyable once I stopped identifying myself by a political group. It is easy to take criticisms of liberals personally, if I super glue that label to myself. What I am trying to do now is distance myself from that label. This allows me to be critical of all political platforms without thinking too harshly of myself as a hypocrite.

In the past, if someone said "Liberals are dummy dumbs because the ACA is not cost effective." My knee jerk reaction would be "HEY! I AM A LIBERAL, SCREW THAT GUY!" How helpful is that? It isn't. It is a lot easier now that I have decided to just say "Forget the labels, let's address this for what it is." So far so good. Just my experiences with labels.

There are also times when I find a label useful.
It can provide....
- An ice breaker
- Automatic common ground
- Opportunity for correcting misconceptions

 

[Neo Deist]

Well bless your heart.

As a Texan and Southerner, I have never been in a position where I have been refused goods, services, or basic human politeness as a result of those identifiers.

I only wish all humans could say the same.

Let's not kid ourselves though. When you say you're from Texas, people think big $$$ oil, cattle ranches, and cowboys. When you say Alabama, they think trailer parks, rebel flags and being married to cousins.

Brings a video to mind: NASA & Alabama

I laugh because it is funny.

 

[Thief]

Thief is ninja!

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I'm not into nationalism (which is really what this it talking about), either at a state level, regional level, or country level. I don't think they're all at the same level of negativity. But at its core I don't feel the need to participate in that sort of tribal thinking. I was not proud to be in Oregon, Texas or other places I lived just because I lived there, or my parents or grandparents were there. I think my family history is interesting to read about, but that's different than feeling 'pride,' that is 'a feeling or deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired.' I can be proud of goals I've met within a community (i.e. I helped a gardener's food bank contribution system, or I helped with a mural in my town) but those feelings don't and shouldn't translate into 'my community is better than X community'.

This is opposed to labels like LGBT which first and foremost serves the function of describing a poorly understood and marginalized group of people, creates goals to allow said marginalized people the opportunity to be as successful as those not marginalized, educate the public on who they are and what it means to be LGBT and what it doesn't mean, and so on. IMO this is way more productive and useful than nationalism, which is always somewhat negative.

I do think some labels are more useful than others depending on their context, and I also think that (as others pointed out) labels will confer some judgement on what the label means, which is why we start with labels and clarify through further dialogue. And hopefully people who come across a new label or a label being presented in a different way they're used to will take the 'What does this label mean to you? Huh, that's interesting' and doesn't go 'Labels are hard. Why does language keep changing?'

 

[Neo Deist]

I'm not into nationalism (which is really what this it talking about), either at a state level, regional level, or country level. I don't think they're all at the same level of negativity. But at its core I don't feel the need to participate in that sort of tribal thinking. I was not proud to be in Oregon, Texas or other places I lived just because I lived there, or my parents or grandparents were there. I think my family history is interesting to read about, but that's different than feeling 'pride,' that is 'a feeling or deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired.' I can be proud of goals I've met within a community (i.e. I helped a gardener's food bank contribution system, or I helped with a mural in my town) but those feelings don't and shouldn't translate into 'my community is better than X community'.

This is opposed to labels like LGBT which first and foremost serves the function of describing a poorly understood and marginalized group of people, creates goals to allow said marginalized people the opportunity to be as successful as those not marginalized, educate the public on who they are and what it means to be LGBT and what it doesn't mean, and so on. IMO this is way more productive and useful than nationalism, which is always somewhat negative.

I do think some labels are more useful than others depending on their context, and I also think that (as others pointed out) labels will confer some judgement on what the label means, which is why we start with labels and clarify through further dialogue. And hopefully people who come across a new label or a label being presented in a different way they're used to will take the 'What does this label mean to you? Huh, that's interesting' and doesn't go 'Labels are hard. Why does language keep changing?'

Well stated, especially the last paragraph. So let me ask you this, and please give an honest response. When someone flies a rebel flag, and they say it is because of their heritage (identity) and for them it has nothing to do with racism or hatred, what is your first impression?

You may be different, but countless times I have seen them being accused of being racist, or they are flying a symbol of hatred, or that they need to get over it since the South lost, etc. That person is looked down upon, ridiculed and often put under censorship. In a country that supposedly has freedom of expression (as defined by the 1st Amendment), people will try and take that away from those who just want to celebrate their heritage. It's almost as if others are saying "you can celebrate your heritage, so long as it meets our criteria for what is acceptable."

Thoughts?

 

[Quetzal]

When someone flies a rebel flag, and they say it is because of their heritage (identity) and for them it has nothing to do with racism or hatred, what is your first impression?

I hope you don't mind if I chime in, I think this is a fascinating topic. My first question would be for them to define what their heritage is? What is it, specifically, about their heritage that they feel is accurately represented by the flag? From there, we can have a discussion. As far as a first impression, I am skeptical. But that is only because in my area, my anecdotal experiences have told me that those I have encountered with this bumper sticker, so far, have upheld racist tendencies. Does this mean everyone feels this way? Of course not. But I would be skeptical and would want to learn more behind their interpretation of the symbol.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Well stated, especially the last paragraph. So let me ask you this, and please give an honest response. When someone flies a rebel flag, and they say it is because of their heritage (identity) and for them it has nothing to do with racism or hatred, what is your first impression?

You may be different, but countless times I have seen them being accused of being racist, or they are flying a symbol of hatred, or that they need to get over it since the South lost, etc. That person is looked down upon, ridiculed and often put under censorship. In a country that supposedly has freedom of expression (as defined by the 1st Amendment), people will try and take that away from those who just want to celebrate their heritage. It's almost as if others are saying "you can celebrate your heritage, so long as it meets our criteria for what is acceptable."

Thoughts?

Pretty much what @Quetzal said. I would ask them what the rebel flag means to them and what values they think it imparts. I'm still not keen on mationalism, but I'd only call it racist if part of the value they place on the rebel flag is the racism that was present in that era OR if their values comes with historical erasure of the racism present at that time.
I.e.
"Thomas Jefferson was a really interesting person."
"I agree, his impact on this country, it's inner workings and development are spectacular."
"He was the best founding father!"
"We'll, I don't know about that...he was an unrepentant slave owner and had some pretty questionable views on women even for his time."
"Hey, I'm related to him and you shouldn't badmouth him! You said yourself he was spectacular!"
"I said he had some pretty spectacular contributions to this country, and he did. But he also had some pretty racist and misogynistic views that shouldn't be swept under the rug just to praise the idealized version of this real, flawed person."

You get the gist.

 

[Neo Deist]

I hope you don't mind if I chime in, I think this is a fascinating topic. My first question would be for them to define what their heritage is? What is it, specifically, about their heritage that they feel is accurately represented by the flag? From there, we can have a discussion.

I can't speak for anyone else, only myself and what I know of my ancestors. Both sides of my family had members that fought in the War, and like many families, they fought on both sides. Since the discussion pertains to the rebel flag, I will only speak about those ancestors.

My mom's side hails from Alabama and Georgia. Out of several ancestors that fought for the South, I will focus on 3. One was a foot soldier in the infantry. One was a doctor. One was a blacksmith. None of them ever owned slaves. As a matter of fact, no one in my family has ever owned slaves. The Southerners were either skilled in a trade such as blacksmithing, carpentry, and masonry, or they were farmers.

From the journal/diary (whatever it is) of the blacksmith, I learned a great deal about wartime life during the Civil War. He was assigned to a cavalry unit (don't know which one), and as blacksmith you can guess what he did: shoed (shod?) horses. He felt that Lincoln's declaration of war by executive action was unconstitutional (it was). Only Congress could declare war. When Lincoln sent the Union Army into Virginia, it was viewed as an act of invasion into a sovereign nation.

Let me stop right there for a moment. I am not here to debate whether or not the states had the right to secede. That debate continues to this day, and both sides make good points. Back to the discussion...

He felt that volunteering to serve was an act of patriotism. He wanted to serve the State of Alabama, and the country of the Confederate States of America. He had a sense of pride that a city in his home state was selected as the Capitol: Montgomery, AL. For him, it was about duty. It had absolutely nothing to do with slavery.



The infantry soldier was also from Alabama. There is not much known about him other than he survived all 4 years of the War, which was quite a feat being in the infantry. All we have is a single letter from him telling his mother how proud he was to be fighting for the preservation of the CSA. Most of the letter just talks about his friends, their travels and the living conditions. He wanted to get back home so that he could marry, have children and work his farm. I only mention him because he was assigned to the Alabama 15th Infantry Regiment. If you are not familiar with it, that was the CSA regiment that charged up the "Little Round Top" hill at Gettysburg, held by the 20th Maine under Colonel Chamberlain. There was a big fight scene in the movie Gettysburg based on that battle.



The doctor was from Georgia and served with the 6th Georgia Volunteers. That unit fought at Antietam, Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville, among others. As a doctor, his job was obviously to treat wounded soldiers. From stitching up bullet/shrapnel holes to cutting off limbs, and everything in between. He would often write about the horrors of war. In a letter exchange with his wife, she begged him to come home after being gone from spring 1861 to summer 1863. He said that it was his duty to serve Georgia and the interests of the Confederacy. He was not there when his youngest son was born, with his wife conceiving around a month before his departure. He survived the war, and ended up moving his family to Atlanta to help rebuild that decimated city.


All three served out of a sense of duty to their state, and their country. For them, it had nothing to do with slavery. None of them owned slaves. So when I hang a rebel flag in my basement, it is not about being a racist, or hatred, or the oppression of blacks. It is in honor of the service that my ancestors gave for a cause that they believed in. That is my heritage, and I am proud to be related to brave men (and women) that stood up for what they felt was right.

Incidentally, I also had ancestors that fought in the American Revolutionary War. I myself am 3rd generation US Army. I fly the American flag on my front porch, as the USA is my country, and I proudly support it.

But don't try and deny me my heritage, or call me racist just because I fly a certain flag that my ancestors fought under.

 

[Sha'irullah]

In politics, libertarians are different from conservatives, and they will be very vocal about it.

Funny since I am both a libertarian and conservative, I throw both words out all the time . What astonishes me is that people are surprised that I cannot be an "atheist" and be conservative both socially and fiscally. I can't fathom the thought of having to say I am an Atheist Libertarian with strongly conservative opinions in social and fiscal matters. Seems easy to me.

Even with my atheism I must be questioned about it. I am in every sense of the word an atheist and hold an almost religious fascination with Ancient Polytheism in regards tot he middle east and also study Islam with great admiration.

 

[Quetzal]

I can't speak for anyone else, only myself and what I know of my ancestors. Both sides of my family had members that fought in the War, and like many families, they fought on both sides. Since the discussion pertains to the rebel flag, I will only speak about those ancestors.

My mom's side hails from Alabama and Georgia. Out of several ancestors that fought for the South, I will focus on 3. One was a foot soldier in the infantry. One was a doctor. One was a blacksmith. None of them ever owned slaves. As a matter of fact, no one in my family has ever owned slaves. The Southerners were either skilled in a trade such as blacksmithing, carpentry, and masonry, or they were farmers.

From the journal/diary (whatever it is) of the blacksmith, I learned a great deal about wartime life during the Civil War. He was assigned to a cavalry unit (don't know which one), and as blacksmith you can guess what he did: shoed (shod?) horses. He felt that Lincoln's declaration of war by executive action was unconstitutional (it was). Only Congress could declare war. When Lincoln sent the Union Army into Virginia, it was viewed as an act of invasion into a sovereign nation.

Let me stop right there for a moment. I am not here to debate whether or not the states had the right to secede. That debate continues to this day, and both sides make good points. Back to the discussion...

He felt that volunteering to serve was an act of patriotism. He wanted to serve the State of Alabama, and the country of the Confederate States of America. He had a sense of pride that a city in his home state was selected as the Capitol: Montgomery, AL. For him, it was about duty. It had absolutely nothing to do with slavery.



The infantry soldier was also from Alabama. There is not much known about him other than he survived all 4 years of the War, which was quite a feat being in the infantry. All we have is a single letter from him telling his mother how proud he was to be fighting for the preservation of the CSA. Most of the letter just talks about his friends, their travels and the living conditions. He wanted to get back home so that he could marry, have children and work his farm. I only mention him because he was assigned to the Alabama 15th Infantry Regiment. If you are not familiar with it, that was the CSA regiment that charged up the "Little Round Top" hill at Gettysburg, held by the 20th Maine under Colonel Chamberlain. There was a big fight scene in the movie Gettysburg based on that battle.



The doctor was from Georgia and served with the 6th Georgia Volunteers. That unit fought at Antietam, Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville, among others. As a doctor, his job was obviously to treat wounded soldiers. From stitching up bullet/shrapnel holes to cutting off limbs, and everything in between. He would often write about the horrors of war. In a letter exchange with his wife, she begged him to come home after being gone from spring 1861 to summer 1863. He said that it was his duty to serve Georgia and the interests of the Confederacy. He was not there when his youngest son was born, with his wife conceiving around a month before his departure. He survived the war, and ended up moving his family to Atlanta to help rebuild that decimated city.


All three served out of a sense of duty to their state, and their country. For them, it had nothing to do with slavery. None of them owned slaves. So when I hang a rebel flag in my basement, it is not about being a racist, or hatred, or the oppression of blacks. It is in honor of the service that my ancestors gave for a cause that they believed in. That is my heritage, and I am proud to be related to brave men (and women) that stood up for what they felt was right.

Incidentally, I also had ancestors that fought in the American Revolutionary War. I myself am 3rd generation US Army. I fly the American flag on my front porch, as the USA is my country, and I proudly support it.

Fascinating stories. I enjoyed reading them.

But don't try and deny me my heritage, or call me racist just because I fly a certain flag that my ancestors fought under.

Fair point. Given your history and thought behind it I would never think of it. Let me give a bit of background of what my local demographic is like. Maybe that will help address my skepticism. I am from Virginia and there are some very large pockets of people who believe that Obama was illegitimate not because of his policy, but because of his race.

(PAUSE! For any other readers out there, I am not here to talk politics about Obama/etc. Just using this as a more recent example. Thanks!)

At any rate, it was not uncommon to see bumper stickers that read "Get that BLACK man out of the WHITE house!" There was also a charming old man who had a sign in his front yard that said "Ni###rs need their place, the White House isn't it!" He decorated his sign with flanking confederate flags. Roudy teenagers flew the confederate flag and posted on social media regarding its recent symbolism when that whole issue blew back last year. In short, the demographic around me uses it as a demeaning symbol to promote racist ideals and as an act of defiance, not heritage. With that in mind, that is why I am skeptical when I see it. I would never write someone off for flying it without at least talking about it and given your family background, it would be foolish of me to hold you to those same standards I have for these other folks around me. Hope that helps.

 

[Neo Deist]

I have much disdain for people like the ones you described. They misrepresent and dishonor those that fought/died in the Civil War out of a sense of duty. Ignorant fools, every single one of them. I am well aware that many rally under the rebel flag for the exact reasons that you stated. Many use it as a symbol of hatred and racism. I view that as an injustice.

But if you stop and think about it, many foreigners view the US flag as the same symbol. They hate Americans and burn our flag out of spite. Just being a US citizen is enough to get you killed in some locations throughout the world. You could be the most anti-establishment, liberal, non-nationalist in the country but that would not matter to them. What they think it stands for, they direct on you.