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Featured Krishna and the Baha'i faith

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Snow White, Jul 22, 2021.

  1. Snow White

    Snow White Veteran Member

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    About Baha'is believing Krishna a manifestation. Shoghi casts doubt or lack of certainty, yet the Baha'i website agrees with it.

    Shoghi:

    "We cannot be sure of the authenticity of the scriptures of Buddha and Krishna" - (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi - 25 November 1950)

    Scriptures of Previous Dispensations

    "As regards your study of the Hindu religion: The origins of this and many other religions that abound in India are not quite known to us, and even the Orientalists and the students of religion are not in complete accord about the results of their investigations in that field. The Bahá'í writings also do not refer specifically to any of these forms of religion current in India. So, the Guardian feels it impossible to give you any definite and detailed information on that subject. He would urge you, however, to carry on your studies in that field, although its immensity is well-nigh bewildering, with the view of bringing the Message to the Hindus. The task of converting this section of the Indian population is a most vital obligation, although the Guardian is fully aware of the many difficulties that it presents. Nevertheless the friends should do their best to make as many converts among the Hindus as they possibly can." (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi - 17 April 1936)

    Hindu | Bahá’í Quotes

    Now for the website:

    And this is the official Baha'i website right, or an official one at least?

    Screenshot_20210721-234701~2.png

    The Baháʼí Faith - Home

    Important additional conversation points up for debate:

    Krishna is only one of 330 million or more Hindu gods.

    My additional statements:

    Here I've suggested that debating Baha'is on Hinduism is sometimes a wasted effort. However bringing forth this research of mine, I'm willing to give it a go again. My concerns are that it's kind of impossible to make Hinduism fit with an Abrahamic faith, let alone take one god of our 330 million Hindu gods, and choose it as the one that happens to be a manifestation.

    I do believe some of the original Baha'i texts do cite Krishna a manifestation. But is it better to go with the interpretation of some of the original Baha'i texts, or trust Shoghi as well as apply careful critical thinking to ponder whether Krishna has a proper place in the Baha'i worldview?

    On the other hand, if you worship Krishna as a Baha'i, I'd hate to discourage you from that experience. If it turns out I'm somehow correct, which I'm not asserting, all I'd ask is for him to no longer be called a manifestation of the Abrahamic, Baha'i God.
     
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  2. Marcion

    Marcion gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma

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    I should really like to do some study of the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh to see how they hold out in the light of Tantra. The original teachings of Jesus held out quite well.

    Of course Bahá'u'lláh is just one of thousands of spiritual great minds but still it would be interesting to see how Bahá'u'lláh fits in.

    I'm sure Bahá'u'lláh is no match though for Shri Krishna and Shri Shiva (nor is Jesus)
    But there are all kinds of levels of teachers and they are all equally important to help people develop spiritually.
     
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  3. Snow White

    Snow White Veteran Member

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    At the very height of my meditations regarding Lord Shiva, it does feel kind of like an earth quake in my body/soul.
     
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  4. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
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    I was a very serious Baha'i at one time. My opinion is that Baha'i is very much in the Islamic/Abrahamic world of religions. I have never seen any indication that Baha'u'llah was really versed or knowledgeable in anything beyond those traditions. Eastern religions like Hinduism and Buddhism do not really fit nicely in the progressive revelations concept of Baha'ism.
     
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  5. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Well-Known Member

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    There is no contradiction there. Shoghi Effendi is not sure of the authenticity of the scriptures of Krishna. He does say here that Krishna is not a Manifesation of God. As you well know Krishna is not synomonous with the Hindu religion. For Hindus very often the Vedas are the basis of their faith. What is unique about Hindu is the diversity of what they believe, and what texts they revere.

    The nine religions to which you have referred include both the Bábí and the Bahá’í Dispensations, Bahá’u’lláh being the ninth Prophet in the series. The other Prophets included are Zoroaster, Krishna, Moses, the Christ, Muḥammad, Buddha, the Prophet of the Sabaeans Whose name is unrecorded, the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh.... Buddha appeared in the Adamic cycle....
    ‘Abdu'l-Bahá, Bahá'u'lláh, Shoghi Effendi, "Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster and Related Subjects", 13

    It is useless for us to debate. So let's not. Abrahamic means being descended from Abraham or a Middle Eastern religion if you prefer. So, you're right Hindu is not Abrahamic. There's only one God, though, in my belief. If you believe in many Gods, go right ahead.
     
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  6. Snow White

    Snow White Veteran Member

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    I appreciate the post. I guess I've just been more looking for clarification on some things, or even clarification through debate. The last couple of years on this forum, there's been some ongoing debates. One example is kind of seeing some Baha'is suggest that Krishna is a manifestation, then after we discuss it awhile, they seem to kind of later say, to the best of my knowledge, that Krishna isn't a manifestation according to Baha'is. All this tells me, and I'll be fair - is that there are some more layers or context to people's understanding than is being understood by either side, the Hindu or the Baha'i, in the debate.

    I'm still not even sure I fully, properly understand yet, myself, as I don't get why the Baha'i site I linked sounds so sure of itself that Krishna is a manifestation.
     
  7. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Well-Known Member

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    Why would Baha'u'llah talk about Krishna or Buddha as He lived in an Abrahamic world? Why would those religions fit in the Abrahamic line of thought? They present another dimension of thought, a different point of view that is valuable. They grew from a different kind of culture. So do the indigenous religions of America, but I personally believe, though this is not authoritive, that Prophets of God lived in the Amnericas, too, and they present an enrichment of spiritual and religious thought. Two members of the National Spiritual Assembly have been Lakota and they consider Baha'i compatible with their religous culture, and at least one, I know considers White Buffalo Calf Woman to have been a Prophet.
     
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  8. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Well-Known Member

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    Well, there's no orthodoxy in the Baha'i Faith. If some say that Krishna is not a Manifestation, that's their opinion and nothing more, as are all our opinions. But you see what Shoghi Effendi said in one place that Krishna is a Manifestation of God, and most Baha'is see Shoghi Effendi as an authoritative source on that. 'Abdu'-Baha mentions Krishna too, though I didn't present that here.
     
  9. Snow White

    Snow White Veteran Member

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  10. Snow White

    Snow White Veteran Member

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    Do you have the writings where he said that?
     
  11. Marcion

    Marcion gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma

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    To this I would like to add that in Tantra there is no fundamental distinction made between Tantra in India, China, Japan or anywhere else.
    Lords Krishna, Shiva, Buddha and Jesus are all equally tantric in their teachings.
    Their personalities have of course largely been appropriated by religions that are less tantric but they themselves did not initiate that.
    The unity lies in the unity of the philosophical content of their teachings.
    Any differences are only minor.
    I cannot however speak for the spiritual teachings of Bahá'u'lláh because I have not yet studied them.
    My feeling from how Bahá'u'lláh is being discussed on this forum is that Bahá'u'lláh has a more religious and less tantric approach. But I could be wrong.
     
    #11 Marcion, Jul 22, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2021
  12. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    I love Hinduism. My Master taught us:
    There is only 1 God given many names, and this one God is Omniscient, Omnipresent and Omnipotent
    Krishna is a Poorna Avatar, which means an incarnation of the Divine with all 16 attributes (incl. the 3 Omnis)
     
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  13. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    Saying there is no contradiction doesn't mean there is no contradiction. 1000 people can see a contradiction, and if one person says 'there is no contradiction' does that mean the rest are all wrong?
     
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  14. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

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    This kinda disturbed me reading this. If bahai is how I imagine it I think it has a soft evangelist style. But this makes it seem bahai "took" Hindus teachings but did not know much of it to convert Hindus and bring to them messengers.
     
    #14 Unveiled Artist, Jul 22, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2021
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  15. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
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    Don't get me wrong Truthseeker9, I LIKE BAHA'I.

    The issue might be that Baha'i also stresses that it is a World Religion for all peoples and not just an Abrahamic Religion. However, the Founders of the Faith were not versed in the Hindu and eastern worlds and clumsily tried to put Krishna and Buddha into some kind of line of 'progressive revelation' along with Abrahamic Manifestations of God.
     
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  16. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein The Uncuckable
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    There's not literally 330 million Hindu deities. It's just a popular exaggeration.
     
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  17. Snow White

    Snow White Veteran Member

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    Whether 33 or 330 million, I agree that 330 million is more of a metaphor. I was up late last night, and my thinking became a little foggy, I will admit.
     
  18. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

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    How flexible are bahai with their beliefs?

    It seems like there is so many interpretations that its hard to know what bahais believe in as a unit-a guideline or structure-to tell the difference between it and other like universalist religions. Any group oriented religion has some form of dogma and traditions, without it, religions cannot survive.
     
  19. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Well-Known Member

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    My understanding of tantric is limited, but I think you're probable right. Define tantric for me.
     
  20. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    So Bahauallah did not come as God's messenger to the World, just to parts of it?
     
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