Koran v. Bible

[F0uad]

My Response: No, part of Baha'i Scriptures corrects the misinterpretations of Quran by those Moslems who made the sects. Also, part of the Baha'i Scriptures came to judge between sects of Islam. Something that was promised in Quran, and you seem to ignore again!

:sarcastic Are you saying that Mohammed(saws) himself and the companions miss-interpreted the verses? The tasfeer and Hadiths come directly from them not a guy who lived in 1800's. Where in the Quran does it say that there will be a new religion or revelation to ''destroy'' the differences/sects?

My Response: Numbering is irrelevant, so stop making excuses. You can find the verses anyways.
Which one is the right one? can even moslems agree which one? I would say none of them is as perfect as the original Arabic. But out of translations, Rodwell is much better than others, because it is not effected much by those who created sects and are biased. Anyways, you can always check the Arabic, so stop making excuses please

I did check the verses and i couldn't find them as i have stated before your only argument is Islam has sects and branches therefore a new revelation has to come . I don't even know Rodwell or hes knowledge of Hafs Arabic, i don't use translations to read the Quran i use Arabic.

My Response: Then you ignore meeting with Lord that was promised in Quran. I had asked you before, how would meeting with God would happen in your understanding, when God is invisible, you were unable to respond. For us it happend as a new revelation, with clear proofs.
Islam leaders were the ones that made the sects, and interpretaed Quran base on their own limited understanding. Quran says, those who make sects, are selfish. So, I don't know how you can trust them?

Can you stop repeating yourself over and over your giving me a headache, i said yes we will face God this doesn't mean we have to see him in a form.

My response: Then you are ignoring the verses of Quran which says, none knows it's interpretation except God, and on the Day it's interpretation shall come.
Yes, in some cases they asked, and Muhammad explained the ones that he was allowed. Moreover, there is no proof that the Hadithes are infallible, except the ones that Baha'i Scriptures confirms them. Only Quran is infallible! You cannot rely on hadithes.

Lol! Only the Bahai scriptures are right according you but the ones that are used in the Bahai scriptures were passed down by muslims.

But do you accept this Hadith? ::

We read this verse in the Qur’an: “Lo! Ye are they, who are called to expend for the Cause of God: and some of you are niggards (stingy) but whoso is niggardly shall be niggard only to his own loss, for God is the rich and ye are the poor: and if ye turn back, he will change you for another people, and they shall not be your like!” (Muhammad – 47:40)
Muhammad was asked who were the people He referred to as “another people”, who were to replace the Arabs? One of His famous followers, Salman Farsi, a Persian, was sitting near Him. Muhammad patted the legs of Salman and said: “He and his people” and He continued: “By the True One, in Whose hands is My life, if the Faith of God should be suspended in the Pleiades, surely men from Persia shall reach it.” (This tradition is accepted by Sunnis and Shiites and is included by Nasafi in his book, Vol 4, page 169, as well as by Muhammad Farid Vajdi, in his book, third edition, page 676)​

I don't belief that is accepted by ''Sunnis'' please give me the full reference and the chain of narration.

My response: You keep ignoring my previous comment that Muhammad was the seal of the prophets and Messenges till the Day of Resurrection.
If you think the meeting with lord has not come yet, then you failed to recognize Him when He did come. Simple as that! ​

What you make no sense at all. Your trying to dodge my argument by throwing more and more at me of different subjects. The Day Of Resurrection is when this live stops and we all go to heaven or hell so you deny Abdhullah or whatever its spelled as messenger/prophet then?

If the Day of Resurrection happened and the Day of Judgement how come i am still on earth typing this and not in Hell or Heaven... Please try to be reasonable.

 

[1robin]

What you are missing, and did not address is:

The verse says, When The Spirit Comes, then He will hear and speaks and tells the truth to people.

If you recall, the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus, then He was raised and spoke to people. He said whatever He heard from the Father.

Similarly, when it says, the Spirit of truth comes, then He hears and speaks, this can only happen in a physical world, as a person, so He can hear and speaks to tell the truth. That can only happen when, the same Holy Spirit descends upon another Prophet, who can hear from God and Speaks.

So, if Holy spirit does not appear, as a human, it is impossible He can hear, and speaks to people.

Once again it actually says spirit not man. You are are trying to say that the spirit can only be a man, and you do so by saying this: "If you recall, the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus, then He was raised and spoke to people. He said whatever He heard from the Father" Amazing. Did a man descend on Jesus, no. There were witnesses to this and no man showed up and annointed Jesus this was the same holy spirity all Christians know. I never suggested the spirit can only speak in a non physical world that makes no sence. The whole bible is full of people communicating with God through the unseen spirit not man. You just don't have an argument here. The last prophet is the spirit. The spirit is said to reside in the hearts of Christians. That rules out a human being.

The tests that Jesus gives for a true prophet is His Fruits.
What was the Fruits of Jesus according to Bible?

That is one of the tests yes. Another is 100% accuracy of prophecy, another is testimony consistent with biblical revelation. (The first one probably rules out your prophet and the second one definately does). There are many more tests but these are enough for this issue.

They cannot be either Moses and Elija or Enoch and Elija, because if you read the whole chapter, They did not fulfill all of those prophecies.

For example it says:
"And if any man would hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies."

"These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy,"

"And smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will,"

"The beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them"

"And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."

"And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and a half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves."

"And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth."

So, if you cannot show all these prophecies are fulfilled by any of those you claim, then your theology that says no prophet will come falls apart.

You are making some really inaccurate statements. These are not prophecies about what they did the first time they were here. That is not how biblical prophecy works. However it seems to be as I showed how Baha i prophecy works. These are prophecys about what they will do when they come again. However some of them are similar to what they did before:
MOSES:
The two witnesses of Revelation 11 perform miraculous acts similar to those Moses did, especially by bringing plagues on those who would not heed God's demands. "And they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire" (Revelation 11:6; compare this with Moses in Exodus 7:17-21).
ELIJAH:
Elijah is often considered the most important prophet of the Old Testament, and with good reason (Malachi 4:5). He was a no-nonsense, direct-to-the-point prophet who simply laid it all on the line. His antagonists could not kill him (2 Kings 2:11).
Elijah prayed and God shut up the heavens for 3 1/2 years (1 Kings 17:1; James 5:17). God also devoured with fire those who commanded Elijah to appear before King Ahaziah (2 Kings 1:10).
The two witnesses of Revelation 11 replicate Elijah's miracles against those who refuse God's will. They will also have the power to stop any rainfall for 3 1/2 years (Revelation 11:3, 5-6). Whenever they are threatened, fire will proceed from their mouths to devour their enemies, a symbol of God's judgment (Hebrews 12:29For our God is a consuming fire.
See All...).
The Acts of Moses, Elijah and the Two Witnesses - World News and Prophecy | United Church of God


The two witnesses The book of Revelation tells us about the two witnesses, “Revelation 11: 1 to 14” these two witnesses are Moses and Elijah. The reason I say that because theses two prophets performed some miracles in their pasts that match the same miracles that are in the book of “Revelation 11: 6”. For example Elijah shut heaven that it rain not, and Moses turns the water to blood. Moses and Elijah performed these “miracles” during their lifetimes on earth in the book of Exodus 7:17, Second Kings 3: 17. When Moses and Elijah return will have difficulties to prove their identities. The only things that we know about them are their miracles as it is mentioned in the Torah and in the bible. For this reason the scripture tells us in the book of Revelation that they shall cause rain and turn the water into blood. Theses miracles’ events are the same as Moses and Elijah performed during their times on earth thousands of years ago. God chooses these two witnesses, Elijah and Moses because many religions believe and heard about them as God’s prophets. Revelation 11:6, and Malachi 3: 1.
Elijah's and Moses' return

Even if they didn't do a certain miracle before that has no bearing on whether they will be able to in the future. Actually they never performed the miracles God did so the miracles don't depend on their characteristics but God's. You can find a hundred sites that give a hundred reasons why these two are widely believed to be the two witnesses. So again NO NEW PROPHETS.

 

[F0uad]

The point is that all scripture was remembered, recited, and/or written by the hand of a human, and all humans are flawed being, regardless of how divinely inspired he or she might be. Therefore everything we do is subject to error and mistakes.

Ok i get the point but if for example one text was remembered and recognized by the companions of the person who then all accepted that the text what was written down and memorized were the same. Then its canonized in one book wouldn't you say its reliable?

If God is the God that Muslims, or Christians or the Jews say He is, would He leave something as important as our eternal souls as something to fight, kill and die over, and still we cannot agree with each other?

That means that the so called religious people are not following God's instruction in my opinion.

The God of Muslims, Christians and Jews must see the confusion. He must see how we treat each other in his name, and yet the brutality continues.

What has this to do with revelation/scripture? It means that Men are making the mistakes.

 

[Nakosis]

Ok i get the point but if for example one text was remembered and recognized by the companions of the person who then all accepted that the text what was written down and memorized were the same. Then its canonized in one book wouldn't you say its reliable?

Who was there and how do you know who was there except through what someone else claims?

 

[Reverend Richard]

"That is true, but mainly because I have never met such an infallible being. Have you?"

No, I haven't met either.

"There have been rumors of such beings like Jesus and Mohammad. But those reports and rumors appear in scripture (oops)."

Well, could be the interpretation of people, made it appear as unrealistic and rumors.

Agreed! The errors of human interpretation always apply, whether one is reading what is already written, or attempting to interpret then write down the message God is revealing to him or her, no matter how "divinely inspired" they might be.


"Jesus never wrote down anything. Not a single word that we know of.
Mohammad (a human) could not write down anything, so we are left with a report of his perfect recitation of the Quran to another human (oops!) who copied it down exactly (oops!) without error. "

I agree about bible not written by Jesus. For the Muhammad, though, He appointed Ali, the commander of the Faith to make sure, it is what He said.

Again, a fallible human is involved. Actually two if you include both Muhammad and Ali.

"So we are back where we started in terms of the reliability of scripture where humans are involved."

Except for Baha'i Scriptures, which are written by the hands of the Messenger and in His own time.

Was the Messenger (Bahá'u'lláh?) a human? If so, whatever he wrote must be considered to contain human prejudices and errors. No human is perfect.

"Part of my personal belief is that if God wanted to make Himself perfectly clear on what is true and what is not true about Him, He could do so with a single breath, to all of mankind in a single gesture. And I am not talking about a compulsion to believe where our freedom to accept or reject Him is removed. I am simply talking about God, as an omnipotent being, making a single clear revelation to all of mankind that would end wars, terrorism, bickering, and prejudices that religion has rained down on the human species. Instead, God has left us to continue quarreling as we have for the last several millenia, fighting and killing each other in His name."

But God revelations would be progressive. This is because in everything there is a sense of progressive and evolution. For example, an embryo gradually develops his body members in the womb, then, later gradually grows up.
The buds opens and turns to flowers gradually, trees give fruits gradually.
So, if God wants to reveal revelations, it would make sense that also be progressive. So, the process of perfection and reaching peace would also be gradual and progressive.

Actually, I don't have a problem with this progressive approach. At times I believe God is still "learning" how to communicate with his creation, as we in turn learn how to communicate with God.


"For me, God is not who we humans think He (or She) is."

100% agree.

"The God of the Bible and the Quran is an invention of man. God for His or Her part, remains anonymous"

I would say, for the most part, that's due to misinterpretations of those Books, than the actual Book

Again, I agree with you. Humans are always subject to the errors of misinterpretation and miscommuncation. This actually introduces additional errors over and above the original scripture.

 

[Reverend Richard]

Ok i get the point but if for example one text was remembered and recognized by the companions of the person who then all accepted that the text what was written down and memorized were the same. Then its canonized in one book wouldn't you say its reliable?

No. In fact research has shown that when you interview eye-witnesses to a single event, each of them will come away with a different story of what happens. Regardless of whether they all heard or saw the same event, they will each tell a different story.

That means that the so called religious people are not following God's instruction in my opinion.

Exactly! Partially because we cannot agree on what God's instructions really are.

What has this to do with revelation/scripture? It means that Men are making the mistakes.

Again, I agree! Why? Because humans, even when they are divinely inspired, are subject to the same weaknesses as all others.

 

[F0uad]

Who was there and how do you know who was there except through what someone else claims?

There are over 400,000 records coming from that time all records that speak about the subject confirm each other. This is the science of Hadith:

Cannons for the Evaluation of Ahadith

A hadith consists of two parts: its text, called matn, and its chain of narrators, called isnad. Comprehensive and strict criteria were separately developed for the evaluation of matn and isnad. The former is regarded as the internal test of ahadith, and the latter is considered the external test. A hadith was accepted as authentic and recorded into text only when it met both of these criteria independently.
Criteria for the Evaluation of Isnad

The unblemished and undisputed character of the narrator, called rawi, was the most important consideration for the acceptance of a hadith. As stated earlier, a new branch of 'ilm al-hadith known as asma' ar-rijal was developed to evaluate the credibility of narrators. The following are a few of the criteria utilized for this purpose:

1. The name, nickname, title, parentage and occupation of the narrator should be known.
2. The original narrator should have stated that he heard the hadith directly from the Prophet.
3. If a narrator referred his hadith to another narrator, the two should have lived in the same period and have had the possibility of meeting each other.
4. At the time of hearing and transmitting the hadith, the narrator should have been physically and mentally capable of understanding and remembering it.
5. The narrator should have been known as a pious and virtuous person.
6. The narrator should not have been accused of having lied, given false evidence or committed a crime.
7. The narrator should not have spoken against other reliable people.
8. The narrator's religious beliefs and practices should have been known to be correct.
9. The narrator should not have carried out and practiced peculiar religious beliefs of his own.
​

Criteria for the Evaluation of Matn

1. The text should have been stated in plain and simple language.
2. A text in non-Arabic or couched in indecent language was rejected.
3. A text prescribing heavy punishment for minor sins or exceptionally large reward for small virtues was rejected.
4. A text which referred to actions that should have been commonly known and practiced by others but were not known and practiced was rejected.
5. A text contrary to the basic teachings of the Qur'an was rejected.
6. A text contrary to other ahadith was rejected.
7. A text contrary to basic reason, logic and the known principles of human society was rejected.
8. A text inconsistent with historical facts was rejected.
9. Extreme care was taken to ensure the text was the original narration of the Prophet and not the sense of what the narrator heard. The meaning of the hadith was accepted only when the narrator was well known for his piety and integrity of character.
10. A text derogatory to the Prophet, members of his family or his companions was rejected.
11. A text by an obscure narrator which was not known during the age of sahabah [the Prophet's companions] or the tabi'een [those who inherited the knowledge of the sahabah] was rejected.​

Along with these generally accepted criteria, each scholar then developed and practiced his own set of specific criteria to further ensure the authenticity of each hadith. For instance, Imam al-Bukhari would not accept a hadith unless it clearly stated that narrator A had heard it from narrator B. He would not accept the general statement that A narrated through B. On this basis he did not accept a single hadith narrated through 'Uthman, even though Hasan al-Basri always stayed very close to 'Ali. Additionally, it is stated that Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal practiced each hadith before recording it in his Musnad [book or collection of hadith].

 

[F0uad]

No. In fact research has shown that when you interview eye-witnesses to a single event, each of them will come away with a different story of what happens. Regardless of whether they all heard or saw the same event, they will each tell a different story.

First of all the Quran was not talking about specific happenings or describing the live of Mohammed(saws). Secondly Mohammed(saws) let the companions recite before him until he accepted they did it correctly.

Now lets come to conclusions if a Text is memorized and recited by the same person over and over and all the other people who memorized and recited in the same way agreed on the recitation and memorizing then its reliable right?

Exactly! Partially because we cannot agree on what God's instructions really are.

So your argument is that because there is no universal religion God doesn't exist or there was no real revelation?

Again, I agree! Why? Because humans, even when they are divinely inspired, are subject to the same weaknesses as all others.

I agree but this is not relevant.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

:sarcastic Are you saying that Mohammed(saws) himself and the companions miss-interpreted the verses? The tasfeer and Hadiths come directly from them not a guy who lived in 1800's. Where in the Quran does it say that there will be a new religion or revelation to ''destroy'' the differences/sects?

I did check the verses and i couldn't find them as i have stated before your only argument is Islam has sects and branches therefore a new revelation has to come . I don't even know Rodwell or hes knowledge of Hafs Arabic, i don't use translations to read the Quran i use Arabic.

Can you stop repeating yourself over and over your giving me a headache, i said yes we will face God this doesn't mean we have to see him in a form.

Lol! Only the Bahai scriptures are right according you but the ones that are used in the Bahai scriptures were passed down by muslims.

I don't belief that is accepted by ''Sunnis'' please give me the full reference and the chain of narration.
What you make no sense at all. Your trying to dodge my argument by throwing more and more at me of different subjects. The Day Of Resurrection is when this live stops and we all go to heaven or hell so you deny Abdhullah or whatever its spelled as messenger/prophet then?

If the Day of Resurrection happened and the Day of Judgement how come i am still on earth typing this and not in Hell or Heaven... Please try to be reasonable.

"Are you saying that Mohammed(saws) himself and the companions miss-interpreted the verses? The tasfeer and Hadiths come directly from them not a guy who lived in 1800's. Where in the Quran does it say that there will be a new religion or revelation to ''destroy'' the differences/sects? "

It is clear what I said, if you read my post again! So, please don't twist what I said!

"I did check the verses and i couldn't find them as i have stated before your only argument is Islam has sects and branches therefore a new revelation has to come . I don't even know Rodwell or hes knowledge of Hafs Arabic, i don't use translations to read the Quran i use Arabic."

How interesting you cannot find verses of Quran!!!

"Can you stop repeating yourself over and over your giving me a headache, i said yes we will face God this doesn't mean we have to see him in a form."

(I can stop it, and you don't have to respond, but it is cruicial to our discussion!)
If it doesn't mean that we face God in any form, then how it is interpreted? You claim the companions of Muhammad have passed down the correct interpretations for everything. Then whay don't you share it?

"Lol! Only the Bahai scriptures are right according you but the ones that are used in the Bahai scriptures were passed down by muslims."

Not correct. The Baha'i Scriptures are revealed by God, who confirmed which Hadithes are true from Muhammad.

" don't belief that is accepted by ''Sunnis'' please give me the full reference and the chain of narration."

I have already provided the Book and Page number!
If you don't believe it is accepted by Sunnis, then why in you previous post you said the Moslems agree about Hadithes?

"What you make no sense at all. Your trying to dodge my argument by throwing more and more at me of different subjects. The Day Of Resurrection is when this live stops and we all go to heaven or hell so you deny Abdhullah or whatever its spelled as messenger/prophet then?"

That's based on false interpretation and imagination of people. We all have soul, and immediately after death, we go to the next life. Heaven is nearness to God, Hell is being far from God.
Resurrection Day, is any Age when Mankind becomes spritually Dead, then when God sends a new Messenger, they who are guided become spiritually alive. When Muhammad revelation came, that was also a Resurrection Day, the Trumpet was blown, etc...

"If the Day of Resurrection happened and the Day of Judgement how come i am still on earth typing this and not in Hell or Heaven... Please try to be reasonable"

Because, the Resurrection Day was not what most people had imagined!
God had already said no one knows it's interpretation, and on the Day its interpretation comes, then you would know what resurrection is!!
And please support your claim with the verses of Quran!!

 

[Nakosis]

There are over 400,000 records coming from that time all records that speak about the subject confirm each other.

Do you have a reference to support this number? Not to say you are wrong but a claim like this shouldn't be accepted without support.

This is the science of Hadith:

Cannons for the Evaluation of Ahadith

A hadith consists of two parts: its text, called matn, and its chain of narrators, called isnad. Comprehensive and strict criteria were separately developed for the evaluation of matn and isnad. The former is regarded as the internal test of ahadith, and the latter is considered the external test. A hadith was accepted as authentic and recorded into text only when it met both of these criteria independently.
Criteria for the Evaluation of Isnad

The unblemished and undisputed character of the narrator, called rawi, was the most important consideration for the acceptance of a hadith. As stated earlier, a new branch of 'ilm al-hadith known as asma' ar-rijal was developed to evaluate the credibility of narrators. The following are a few of the criteria utilized for this purpose:

1. The name, nickname, title, parentage and occupation of the narrator should be known.
2. The original narrator should have stated that he heard the hadith directly from the Prophet.
3. If a narrator referred his hadith to another narrator, the two should have lived in the same period and have had the possibility of meeting each other.
4. At the time of hearing and transmitting the hadith, the narrator should have been physically and mentally capable of understanding and remembering it.
5. The narrator should have been known as a pious and virtuous person.
6. The narrator should not have been accused of having lied, given false evidence or committed a crime.
7. The narrator should not have spoken against other reliable people.
8. The narrator's religious beliefs and practices should have been known to be correct.
9. The narratorshouldnot have carried out and practiced peculiar religious beliefs of his own.​

Seems like an impossible person to find.

Criteria for the Evaluation of Matn

1. The text should have been stated in plain and simple language.
2. A text in non-Arabic or couched in indecent language was rejected.
3. A text prescribing heavy punishment for minor sins or exceptionally large reward for small virtues was rejected.
4. A text which referred to actions that should have been commonly known and practiced by others but were not known and practiced was rejected.
5. A text contrary to the basic teachings of the Qur'an was rejected.
6. A text contrary to other ahadith was rejected.
7. A text contrary to basic reason, logic and the known principles of human society was rejected.
8. A text inconsistent with historical facts was rejected.
9. Extreme care was taken to ensure the text was the original narration of the Prophet and not the sense of what the narrator heard. The meaning of the hadith was accepted only when the narrator was well known for his piety and integrity of character.
10. A text derogatory to the Prophet, members of his family or his companions was rejected.
11. A text by an obscure narrator which was not known during the age of sahabah [the Prophet's companions] or the tabi'een [those who inherited the knowledge of the sahabah] was rejected.​

Along with these generally accepted criteria, each scholar then developed and practiced his own set of specific criteria to further ensure the authenticity of each hadith. For instance, Imam al-Bukhari would not accept a hadith unless it clearly stated that narrator A had heard it from narrator B. He would not accept the general statement that A narrated through B. On this basis he did not accept a single hadith narrated through 'Uthman, even though Hasan al-Basri always stayed very close to 'Ali. Additionally, it is stated that Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal practiced each hadith before recording it in his Musnad [book or collection of hadith].

Even if in accepting the reliability of the transmission of a Prophets words. The Prophet was still human and fallible. You are left to rely on the ability of the prophet to correctly rely the message. And, the individual reading the message and their ability to correctly understand those words.

Don't Muslims among themselves have disagreement as to what was meant by a particular passage?

 

[F0uad]

It is clear what I said, if you read my post again! So, please don't twist what I said!

You said that Muslim leaders give us false interpretations but muslims do not follow ''Muslim Leaders'' what are Muslim leaders define it please. We follow the Hadiths and Tasfeer what was passed down by Mohammed(saws) and hes companions not interpretations of certain people.

How interesting you cannot find verses of Quran!!!

Lol it means they are not there otherwhise help me find them in a original translation that does not come from Rodwell and can be found online.

(I can stop it, and you don't have to respond, but it is cruicial to our discussion!)
If it doesn't mean that we face God in any form, then how it is interpreted? You claim the companions of Muhammad have passed down the correct interpretations for everything. Then whay don't you share it?

Give me the verse and ill give you the references from the Tasfeer explaining it.

Not correct. The Baha'i Scriptures are revealed by God, who confirmed which Hadithes are true from Muhammad.

Yeah sure It looks to me that your messenger had a agenda.

I have already provided the Book and Page number!
If you don't believe it is accepted by Sunnis, then why in you previous post you said the Moslems agree about Hadithes?

Lol look at my previous posts Muslims do not agree on all Hadiths since they are not all Authentic they agree on Authentic Hadiths what seems obvious.

That's based on false interpretation and imagination of people. We all have soul, and immediately after death, we go to the next life. Heaven is nearness to God, Hell is being far from God.
Resurrection Day, is any Age when Mankind becomes spritually Dead, then when God sends a new Messenger, they who are guided become spiritually alive. When Muhammad revelation came, that was also a Resurrection Day, the Trumpet was blown, etc...

:sarcastic You make no sense and contradict the stories about the Day of Judgement in the quran and authentic hadiths.

Because, the Resurrection Day was not what most people had imagined!
God had already said no one knows it's interpretation, and on the Day its interpretation comes, then you would know what resurrection is!!
And please support your claim with the verses of Quran!

Where does ''God'' says that, please represent you case since your the one who throws any argument he has.

When Allah mentions the day of resurrection in the Quran, “The Day that the caller will call (them) to a terrible thing...” (Quran 54:6); the terror of this day is something that human beings cannot know because they have never encountered anything like it. Only Allah knows the arrival time of that day. People's learning about this day is limited to what is related in the Quran. The day of resurrection will come all of a sudden when nobody expects it. This day may seize people when they work in their office, sleep at their home, talk on the phone, read a book, laugh, cry or drop their children off at school. Furthermore, this seizure will be so horrifying that no one will have seen anything like it in his lifetime.

“ Then, when the Trumpet is sounded; Truly, that Day will be a Hard Day, Far from easy for the disbelievers “ (Quran 74:8-10); when this sound is heard all over the world, those who have not used the time given to them by Allah for gaining His good pleasure will be seized by a great fear. Allah describes in the Quran the horrifying events that will happen on that day:

“Nay, but the Hour is their appointed time (for their full recompense), and the Hour will be more grievous and more bitter” (Quran 54:46)

As the verses relate, the sounding of the trumpet is followed by a great tremor and a roaring so violent as to deafen the ears. In the intensity of this din, the mountains start to shake and slide with the earth beneath them (Refer Quran 99: 1-8).

Mountains will be powdered to dust (Quran 56: 5). At that moment, people very well understand how trivial are the things that they have hitherto cherished. All the material values they have pursued throughout their lives suddenly vanish:

“But when there comes the greatest catastrophe (i.e. the Day of Recompense, etc.), The Day when man shall remember what he strove for, And Hell-fire shall be made apparent in full view for (every) one who sees” (Quran 79:34-36)

On that day, even the mountains made up of stones, earth and rocks are dispersed like carded wool (Quran 101:5). Man now becomes aware that this power is not the power of nature. For on that day, nature also is laid low. A tremendous fear and horror rule over all that happens that day. People, animals, and nature are all overwhelmed by this horror. People see that the oceans burst forth (Quran 82:3) and that they are set on fire (Quran 81:6).

The heavens start shaking just like the earth and they start to be torn away, in a way hitherto un-witnessed. The usual blue colour of the sky that people are accustomed to is transformed and resembles molten brass (Quran 70:8). On this day, everything in the sky that used to give light is suddenly darkened; the sun is folded up (Quran 81:1), the moon is cleft asunder (Quran 54:1), and the sun and the moon are joined together. (Quran 75:9). Pregnant women lose their children because of the horrifying fear of that day. The fear makes children hoary-headed (Quran 73:17). At length, when there comes the deafening noise, that day shall a man flee from his own brother, and from his mother and his father, and from his wife and his children. Each one of them, that day, will have enough concern (of his own) to make him indifferent to the others. (Chapter 80:33-37)

Just imagine what will be our stage if we ignore the following words of Allah:

“ Allah is He Who created you in (a state of) weakness, then gave you strength after weakness, then after strength gave (you) weakness and grey hair. He creates what He wills. And it is He Who is the All-*Knowing, the All-*Powerful. And on the Day that the Hour will be established, the Mujrimun (criminals, disbelievers, polytheists, sinners, etc.) will swear that they stayed not but an hour, thus were they ever deluded [away from the truth (i.e they used to tell lies and take false oaths, and turn away from the truth) in this life of the world)]. And those who have been bestowed with knowledge and faith will say: "Indeed you have stayed according to the Decree of Allah, until the Day of Resurrection, so this is the Day of Resurrection, but you knew not. So on that Day no excuse of theirs will avail those who did wrong (by associating partners in worship with Allah, and by denying the Day of Resurrection), nor will they be allowed (then) to return to seek Allah's Pleasure” (Quran 30:54-57)

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The spirit is said to reside in the hearts of Christians. That rules out a human being.

That spirit which you believe that resides in the heart of Christians, is not what we are talking about. The spirit we are talking about, can hear from God and talk to people. The Scripture is clear about this.
If you say, that spirit is in the heart of Christians and hears from God and tell them the truth, then why there are so many Christian sects and denomination who don't agree? If they are all receiving the word of God, from that same Spirit, then They should all agree, and receive the same Word. They should all interpret the whole bible and Christianity the same way. So, your claim falls apart! Simple as that!

That is one of the tests yes. Another is 100% accuracy of prophecy, another is testimony consistent with biblical revelation. (The first one probably rules out your prophet and the second one definately does). There are many more tests but these are enough for this issue.

So, what ever tests and 100% prophecies fulfilled in Christianity, are also found in the Baha'i revelation.

You are making some really inaccurate statements. These are not prophecies about what they did the first time they were here. That is not how biblical prophecy works. However it seems to be as I showed how Baha i prophecy works. These are prophecys about what they will do when they come again. However some of them are similar to what they did before:
MOSES:
The two witnesses of Revelation 11 perform miraculous acts similar to those Moses did, especially by bringing plagues on those who would not heed God's demands. "And they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire" (Revelation 11:6; compare this with Moses in Exodus 7:17-21).
ELIJAH:
Elijah is often considered the most important prophet of the Old Testament, and with good reason (Malachi 4:5). He was a no-nonsense, direct-to-the-point prophet who simply laid it all on the line. His antagonists could not kill him (2 Kings 2:11).
Elijah prayed and God shut up the heavens for 3 1/2 years (1 Kings 17:1; James 5:17). God also devoured with fire those who commanded Elijah to appear before King Ahaziah (2 Kings 1:10).
The two witnesses of Revelation 11 replicate Elijah's miracles against those who refuse God's will. They will also have the power to stop any rainfall for 3 1/2 years (Revelation 11:3, 5-6). Whenever they are threatened, fire will proceed from their mouths to devour their enemies, a symbol of God's judgment (Hebrews 12:29For our God is a consuming fire.
See All...).
The Acts of Moses, Elijah and the Two Witnesses - World News and Prophecy | United Church of God


The two witnesses The book of Revelation tells us about the two witnesses, “Revelation 11: 1 to 14” these two witnesses are Moses and Elijah. The reason I say that because theses two prophets performed some miracles in their pasts that match the same miracles that are in the book of “Revelation 11: 6”. For example Elijah shut heaven that it rain not, and Moses turns the water to blood. Moses and Elijah performed these “miracles” during their lifetimes on earth in the book of Exodus 7:17, Second Kings 3: 17. When Moses and Elijah return will have difficulties to prove their identities. The only things that we know about them are their miracles as it is mentioned in the Torah and in the bible. For this reason the scripture tells us in the book of Revelation that they shall cause rain and turn the water into blood. Theses miracles’ events are the same as Moses and Elijah performed during their times on earth thousands of years ago. God chooses these two witnesses, Elijah and Moses because many religions believe and heard about them as God’s prophets. Revelation 11:6, and Malachi 3: 1.
Elijah's and Moses' return

Even if they didn't do a certain miracle before that has no bearing on whether they will be able to in the future. Actually they never performed the miracles God did so the miracles don't depend on their characteristics but God's. You can find a hundred sites that give a hundred reasons why these two are widely believed to be the two witnesses. So again NO NEW PROPHETS.

Firstly the Book of Revelation, is a prophecy Book, which by definition is for future event, It is based on visions of future.
Moreover, even if you find some vague similarity, it doesn't prove your point.
How did they fulfill this:
"And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and a half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves."

Many Scholars, agree that each Day is One year, thus 3 and half day is 1260 years.

 

[arthra]

What you are missing, and did not address is:

The verse says, When The Spirit Comes, then He will hear and speaks and tells the truth to people.

If you recall, the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus, then He was raised and spoke to people. He said whatever He heard from the Father.

Similarly, when it says, the Spirit of truth comes, then He hears and speaks, this can only happen in a physical world, as a person, so He can hear and speaks to tell the truth. That can only happen when, the same Holy Spirit descends upon another Prophet, who can hear from God and Speaks.

...
.

I like to quote the actual verses such as John 16:13 the following:


"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."


So it would apper that the Spirit of Truth is identified as a being like Jesus.. who will "speak only what He hears"...this would not be a Spirit by itself but a Manifestation in our view. :candle:

..............................................................................

You know it occurs to me that maybe there are just too many subjects to adequately cover in one thread and we keep bumping into each other... Maybe have one thread on the Bible and another on the Qur'an.

 

[F0uad]

Do you have a reference to support this number? Not to say you are wrong but a claim like this shouldn't be accepted without support.

Some say there are more then 400,000 reports but i actually refer to the 400,000 coming from Bukahri alone let alone the other Hadith books.

Maybe you should take a look on this page to know what a Hadith is:

Hadith - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Seems like an impossible person to find.

:sarcastic

Even if in accepting the reliability of the transmission of a Prophets words. The Prophet was still human and fallible. You are left to rely on the ability of the prophet to correctly rely the message. And, the individual reading the message and their ability to correctly understand those words.

The revelation(Quran) has nothing to do with hadiths, i was saying that the Hadiths explain on how the Quran is/was preserved and interpreted. There are many Muslims who belief that God spoke true Mohammed(saws) when he was revealing the Quran and when Mohammed(saws) spoke on hes own sack it wasn't included in the Quran.

Don't Muslims among themselves have disagreement as to what was meant by a particular passage?

This has nothing to do with a Hadith yes as you can clearly see even Non-Muslims have disagreements, however the Sunni's the majority of the Muslims around 1,5Billion have found ways to understand the interpretations by learning the Authentic Hadiths and Tasfeer referring to the Scriptures what came from the Prophet Mohammed(saws) and hes companions.

 

[Nakosis]

:sarcastic
The revelation(Quran) has nothing to do with hadiths, i was saying that the Hadiths explain on how the Quran is/was preserved and interpreted. There are many Muslims who belief that God spoke true Mohammed(saws) when he was revealing the Quran and when Mohammed(saws) spoke on hes own sack it wasn't included in the Quran.

Thank you for correcting me.

This has nothing to do with a Hadith yes as you can clearly see even Non-Muslims have disagreements, however the Sunni's the majority of the Muslims around 1,5Billion have found ways to understand the interpretations by learning the Authentic Hadiths and Tasfeer referring to the Scriptures what came from the Prophet Mohammed(saws) and hes companions.

The only point I 'd make is that the individual is the one who ultimately makes the decision as to what is reliable. We may disagree as to what is. That doesn't mean we are not both honestly trying as best we can. I take it to the the point that I may not agree with any particular prophet. Even if in accepting he received some "communication" from God and they honestly tried to rely that as best they could. I don't think it means there is absolute authority in the words of a prophet.

 

[F0uad]

Thank you for correcting me.



The only point I 'd make is that the individual is the one who ultimately makes the decision as to what is reliable. We may disagree as to what is. That doesn't mean we are not both honestly trying as best we can. I take to the the point that I may not agree with any particular prophet. Even if in accepting he received some "communication" from God and they honestly tried to rely that as best they could. I don't think it means there is absolute authority in the words of a prophet.

I Totally agree but the difference for example between Christianity and Islam is that that the explanation of each verse comes directly from the Companion and Mohammed(saws) also the preservation is explained by the Companions themselves on what happened and how it happend.

 

[1robin]

That spirit which you believe that resides in the heart of Christians, is not what we are talking about. The spirit we are talking about, can hear from God and talk to people. The Scripture is clear about this.

You seem like a nice, respectfull person but this is getting frustrating. This is the verse where people get this idea of something else coming after Jesus. Notice the word prophet or man is not even in the verse. I used the word prophet because you did and that was not the issue. If you are getting this idea from some other verse then let me know and we will discuss it.


GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
However, I am telling you the truth: It's good for you that I'm going away. If I don't go away, the helper won't come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. (I read a three hundred page book on the holy spirit alone) He is one of the three persons of the trinity. So the word him is just as applicable to the spirit as it is to God. He doesn't have a body but he has an identity. He is fully capable of both hearing from the father and speaking to us. He is said to even be able to interpret our prayers for us and to impart God's truth to us.King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
John 16:7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
Italics are my comments.

Here are two commentaries of the five at this site that agree with the spirit as the final revelation.
Clarke's
see Matthew 20:19; Matthew 26:2; Mark 9:31; Mark 10:33, Luke 9:44; Luke 18:32. This he does not repeat here, but shows them that, by the order of God, the Holy Spirit cannot come to them, nor to the world, unless he first die; and consequently men cannot be saved but in this way.
Barnes's

3. It was an evident arrangement in the great plan of redemption that each of the persons of the Trinity should perform a part. As it was not the work of the Spirit to make an atonement, so it was not the work of the Saviour to apply it. And until the Lord Jesus had performed this great work, the way was not open for the Holy Spirit to descend to perform his part of the great plan; yet, when the Saviour had completed his portion of the work and had left the earth, the Spirit would carry forward the same plan and apply it to men. 4. It was to be expected that far more signal success would attend the preaching of the gospel when the atonement was actually made than before. It was the office of the Spirit to carry forward the work only when the Saviour had died and ascended; and this was actually the case. See Acts 2. Hence, it was expedient that the Lord Jesus should go away, that the Spirit might descend and apply the work to sinners. The departure of the Lord Jesus was to the apostles a source of deep affliction, but had they seen the whole case they would not have been thus afflicted. So God often takes away from us one blessing that he may bestow a greater. All affliction, if received in a proper manner, is of this description; and could the afflicted people of God always see the whole case as God sees it, they would think and feel, as he does, that it was best for them to be thus afflicted.
John 16:7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
Bolding mine. I don't see any wiggle room here. It is point blank.

If you say, that spirit is in the heart of Christians and hears from God and tell them the truth, then why there are so many Christian sects and denomination who don't agree? If they are all receiving the word of God, from that same Spirit, then They should all agree, and receive the same Word. They should all interpret the whole bible and Christianity the same way. So, your claim falls apart! Simple as that!

Because to recieve this truth requires what most Christians including me find hard to do. We must live an obedient life, full of quiet intrespection, and of attentiveness to God free of false tradition. That being said virtually all Christian denominations agree on most doctrine they usually differ on secondary doctinal issues. So truth varies directly with obedience and faith. Most Christians are not extremely obedient and so have areas where truth eludes them.

So, what ever tests and 100% prophecies fulfilled in Christianity, are also found in the Baha'i revelation.

Are you suggesting that your book that alleges Islam is true and my book which says it is false are compatable. How does your book get credit for prophecys given to the prophets in my book that said no other human prophets are coming. Like I said it seems Baha i is trying to gain legitamacy by attaching itself to more established and accepted faiths without providing independant reasons for it's own inspiration. If I wrote a book and included all the prophecys in the bible that does not make my book to have God as the author.

Firstly the Book of Revelation, is a prophecy Book, which by definition is for future event, It is based on visions of future.

Moreover, even if you find some vague similarity, it doesn't prove your point.
How did they fulfill this:
"And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and a half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves."

Many Scholars, agree that each Day is One year, thus 3 and half day is 1260 years.

Since I am the one in the last post that pointed out that is a book about future events then how is your claiming it is as well a meaningful point. Of course it contains future predictions it also contains events that happened during the time it was written. So what? It is virtually a universal conclusion that those WITNESSES are who I said they were and you haven't given any reason they are not.

Peace

 

[FearGod]

Among others:

• the prohibition on waging war
• a prohibition on partisanship, along with the provision of an explicitly unific, non-political administrative system
• prohibition of slavery
• condemnation of backbiting and gossip

Peace,

Bruce

• the prohibition on waging war

Bahaullah was born in 12 November 1817 and died in 29 May 1892 and the wars
never stopped during his times and after his death,so his effect was Zero on ending wars,
check by yourself war timeline here

• a prohibition on partisanship, along with the provision of an explicitly unific, non-political administrative system

And when that happened,just in bahaullah's dreams.

• prohibition of slavery

And that is also a dream and can never be a reality,prophets when
talking about slavery,they know already that slavery can never be
ended,so bahaullah was dreaming,you can stop slavery in one case,
and which is to make all the people in the world to be a boss.

There Are More Slaves Today Than at Any Time in Human History

• condemnation of backbiting and gossip

What a big job,and also not to lie,what about to be good to your neighbor.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You seem like a nice, respectfull person but this is getting frustrating. This is the verse where people get this idea of something else coming after Jesus. Notice the word prophet or man is not even in the verse. I used the word prophet because you did and that was not the issue. If you are getting this idea from some other verse then let me know and we will discuss it.

GOD'S WORD® Translation(©1995)
However, I am telling you the truth: It's good for you that I'm going away. If I don't go away, the helper won't come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. (I read a three hundred page book on the holy spirit alone) He is one of the three persons of the trinity. So the word him is just as applicable to the spirit as it is to God. He doesn't have a body but he has an identity. He is fully capable of both hearing from the father and speaking to us. He is said to even be able to interpret our prayers for us and to impart God's truth to us.King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
John 16:7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
Italics are my comments.

Here are two commentaries of the five at this site that agree with the spirit as the final revelation.
Clarke's
see Matthew 20:19; Matthew 26:2; Mark 9:31; Mark 10:33, Luke 9:44; Luke 18:32. This he does not repeat here, but shows them that, by the order of God, the Holy Spirit cannot come to them, nor to the world, unless he first die; and consequently men cannot be saved but in this way.
Barnes's

3. It was an evident arrangement in the great plan of redemption that each of the persons of the Trinity should perform a part. As it was not the work of the Spirit to make an atonement, so it was not the work of the Saviour to apply it. And until the Lord Jesus had performed this great work, the way was not open for the Holy Spirit to descend to perform his part of the great plan; yet, when the Saviour had completed his portion of the work and had left the earth, the Spirit would carry forward the same plan and apply it to men. 4. It was to be expected that far more signal success would attend the preaching of the gospel when the atonement was actually made than before. It was the office of the Spirit to carry forward the work only when the Saviour had died and ascended; and this was actually the case. See Acts 2. Hence, it was expedient that the Lord Jesus should go away, that the Spirit might descend and apply the work to sinners. The departure of the Lord Jesus was to the apostles a source of deep affliction, but had they seen the whole case they would not have been thus afflicted. So God often takes away from us one blessing that he may bestow a greater. All affliction, if received in a proper manner, is of this description; and could the afflicted people of God always see the whole case as God sees it, they would think and feel, as he does, that it was best for them to be thus afflicted.
John 16:7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
Bolding mine. I don't see any wiggle room here. It is point blank.



Because to recieve this truth requires what most Christians including me find hard to do. We must live an obedient life, full of quiet intrespection, and of attentiveness to God free of false tradition. That being said virtually all Christian denominations agree on most doctrine they usually differ on secondary doctinal issues. So truth varies directly with obedience and faith. Most Christians are not extremely obedient and so have areas where truth eludes them.





Are you suggesting that your book that alleges Islam is true and my book which says it is false are compatable. How does your book get credit for prophecys given to the prophets in my book that said no other human prophets are coming. Like I said it seems Baha i is trying to gain legitamacy by attaching itself to more established and accepted faiths without providing independant reasons for it's own inspiration. If I wrote a book and included all the prophecys in the bible that does not make my book to have God as the author.






Since I am the one in the last post that pointed out that is a book about future events then how is your claiming it is as well a meaningful point. Of course it contains future predictions it also contains events that happened during the time it was written. So what? It is virtually a universal conclusion that those WITNESSES are who I said they were and you haven't given any reason they are not.

Peace

"Because to recieve this truth requires what most Christians including me find hard to do. We must live an obedient life, full of quiet intrespection, and of attentiveness to God free of false tradition. That being said virtually all Christian denominations agree on most doctrine they usually differ on secondary doctinal issues. So truth varies directly with obedience and faith. Most Christians are not extremely obedient and so have areas where truth eludes them. "

But it seems you are adding something to the verse of the Bible. You are adding a condition "Because to recieve this truth requires what most Christians including me find hard to do."
The verse does not say this. The verse says "whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak "
You can offcourse have your interpretation.


"That being said virtually all Christian denominations agree on most doctrine they usually differ on secondary doctinal issues."

But even if virtually all christians agree on something, does not mean, it is true. So what? ALL jews agree that Jesus was not the true Messiah that their Book says.



"So what? It is virtually a universal conclusion that those WITNESSES are who I said they were and you haven't given any reason they are not."

Well, I don't think it is a universal conclusion that agrees who the Witnesses are.
Baha'i Scriptures Proves those two are Muhammad and Ali, whose religion lasted 1260 years. Baha'i faith was stablished exactly 1260 years after Islam.

Even among the Christians, there is no agreement who are those two.
If you read the interpretations given here from Christian scholars, you'll see each one gives a different interpretation:
Revelation 11:3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."

But you are more than welcome to believe you interpretation.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I like to quote the actual verses such as John 16:13 the following:


"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."


So it would apper that the Spirit of Truth is identified as a being like Jesus.. who will "speak only what He hears"...this would not be a Spirit by itself but a Manifestation in our view. :candle:

..............................................................................

You know it occurs to me that maybe there are just too many subjects to adequately cover in one thread and we keep bumping into each other... Maybe have one thread on the Bible and another on the Qur'an.

Yes, it's a good idea. We should make a new thread for each.