Koran v. Bible

[InvestigateTruth]

i didn't know his history and sorry i ain't interested to know.

If you are not interested to know the history of the Baha'i Faith, then how can you know the truth?

But they listen to bahaullah only for the black to be a president for the USA.

The teachings can be spread and effect the whole contry.

Your logic is funny,so when do you think bahai will reach 2 billions

God knows

How you can actually know who is bahai in Iran while they are jailed and executed,did you count them.

The baha'i community has it's own statistics!

No you are wrong ,but when you presented the verse,you were mocking about the verse that say “And verily Our host shall conquer.”Qur’án 37:173

and your explanation was against the verse by saying :
Then why still Moslems didn't conquer the world?
Why the Armies of Moslems were defeated?

i am really surprised that you don't know even what you had wrote.

I did not mock!! This is your judgement. I simply asked questions which you still have not address the actual question. (But it's upto you)

So, you mean that verse “And verily Our host shall conquer.” means something else? What is your understanding of that verse?

 

[FearGod]

I did not mock!! This is your judgement. I simply asked questions which you still have not address the actual question. (But it's upto you)

So, you mean that verse “And verily Our host shall conquer.” means something else? What is your understanding of that verse?

When you understand the meaning of those verses,then you will understand what's god's willingness means.

30:2 The Roman Empire has been defeated-
30:3In a land close by; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious-
30:4Within a few years. With Allah is the Decision, in the past and in the Future: on that Day shall the Believers rejoice-
30:5With the help of Allah. He helps whom He will, and He is exalted in might, most merciful.
30:6(It is) the promise of Allah. Never does Allah depart from His promise: but most men understand not.

Hope that you're among those who do understand

 

[InvestigateTruth]

When you understand the meaning of those verses,then you will understand what's god's willingness means.

30:2 The Roman Empire has been defeated-
30:3In a land close by; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious-
30:4Within a few years. With Allah is the Decision, in the past and in the Future: on that Day shall the Believers rejoice-
30:5With the help of Allah. He helps whom He will, and He is exalted in might, most merciful.
30:6(It is) the promise of Allah. Never does Allah depart from His promise: but most men understand not.

Hope that you're among those who do understand

Yes, Thank you ttruth. I think I understand.

"When the victory arriveth, every man shall profess himself as believer and shall hasten to the shelter of God’s Faith. Happy are they who in the days of world-encompassing trials have stood fast in the Cause and refused to swerve from its truth."

~ Baha'u'llah

 

[1robin]

Yes, Thank you ttruth. I think I understand.

"When the victory arriveth, every man shall profess himself as believer and shall hasten to the shelter of God’s Faith. Happy are they who in the days of world-encompassing trials have stood fast in the Cause and refused to swerve from its truth."

~ Baha'u'llah

The above verse is a simple theological claim that contains no new information, great wisdom, or teaching. The statements are an inaccurate restatement of verses that can be found in the Koran and the bible. There does not seem to be anything in Baha'i that is unique, of supernatural origin, or necessary. Even if it did contain these things I have still not been shown anything whatsoever that would be reasonable evidence for concluding it has a divine origin. It sounds exactly like oriental philosophy, simple observations, and obvious conclusions written in a simplistic theological style.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The above verse is a simple theological claim that contains no new information, great wisdom, or teaching. The statements are an inaccurate restatement of verses that can be found in the Koran and the bible. There does not seem to be anything in Baha'i that is unique, of supernatural origin, or necessary. Even if it did contain these things I have still not been shown anything whatsoever that would be reasonable evidence for concluding it has a divine origin. It sounds exactly like oriental philosophy, simple observations, and obvious conclusions written in a simplistic theological style.

Then how did you believe in God? What is your proof?

 

[1robin]

Then how did you believe in God? What is your proof?

1. The bible contains prophecy that could only have it's source in the divine. There are over one thousands prophecies that have been fulfilled 100%. They are extremely detailed and exact.
2. The bible contains scientific claims which are detailed and accurate. They were written long before they have become known by science.
3. The bible has 25000 plus historical corroborations verified by archaeology.
4. It was completed over the course of 1500 plus years, has 66 books, and over 40 authors. The fact that it contains an extremely sophisticated and perfectly consistent narrative throughout despite those facts suggests a divine, timeless, omnipotent author.
5. It is the only book that contains explicit, complete, and sufficient explanations for the deepest subjects of mankind. Origin, destination, meaning, and purpose.
6. It has greater explanatory scope and power by far than any other book in human history.
7. It contains the only logical path and means to heaven. All works based salvation systems are chaotic, arbitrary, capricious, unspecific, and impossible. Only the bibles grace salvation system overcomes all these issues.
8. The bible has a greater and more accurate textual tradition by a large margin than any other work of ancient history. It retains 95% accuracy even after 1800-3500 yrs. No other book is even in the same league.
9. Every philosophical claim or implication contained in the bible is consistent with accepted philosophy.
10. It's theological claims are the most sophisticated, consistent, sufficient, and profound found in any religion.
11. The bible is unique in it's demand and guarantee of a spiritual experience with God. I have had the born again experience guarantied in the bible that follows faith in Christs sacrifice. It is a spiritual experience of such a character that it confirms the reality of God and the book that was followed to arrive at that conclusion and faith.
12. The bible is the most tested, researched, trusted, read, and cherished book in human history.

There are many more reasons but I will stop here for now. As you can see there are many reasons to have confidence that the bible is truly God's word. The bible records that God requires faith. The existence of proof would make faith unnecessary and so I do not believe there is a way to prove God, and that is by design. However the bible makes an undeniably strong case that he exists and his word is the bible.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

1. The bible contains prophecy that could only have it's source in the divine. There are over one thousands prophecies that have been fulfilled 100%. They are extremely detailed and exact.
2. The bible contains scientific claims which are detailed and accurate. They were written long before they have become known by science.
3. The bible has 25000 plus historical corroborations verified by archaeology.
4. It was completed over the course of 1500 plus years, has 66 books, and over 40 authors. The fact that it contains an extremely sophisticated and perfectly consistent narrative throughout despite those facts suggests a divine, timeless, omnipotent author.
5. It is the only book that contains explicit, complete, and sufficient explanations for the deepest subjects of mankind. Origin, destination, meaning, and purpose.
6. It has greater explanatory scope and power by far than any other book in human history.
7. It contains the only logical path and means to heaven. All works based salvation systems are chaotic, arbitrary, capricious, unspecific, and impossible. Only the bibles grace salvation system overcomes all these issues.
8. The bible has a greater and more accurate textual tradition by a large margin than any other work of ancient history. It retains 95% accuracy even after 1800-3500 yrs. No other book is even in the same league.
9. Every philosophical claim or implication contained in the bible is consistent with accepted philosophy.
10. It's theological claims are the most sophisticated, consistent, sufficient, and profound found in any religion.
11. The bible is unique in it's demand and guarantee of a spiritual experience with God. I have had the born again experience guarantied in the bible that follows faith in Christs sacrifice. It is a spiritual experience of such a character that it confirms the reality of God and the book that was followed to arrive at that conclusion and faith.
12. The bible is the most tested, researched, trusted, read, and cherished book in human history.

There are many more reasons but I will stop here for now. As you can see there are many reasons to have confidence that the bible is truly God's word. The bible records that God requires faith. The existence of proof would make faith unnecessary and so I do not believe there is a way to prove God, and that is by design. However the bible makes an undeniably strong case that he exists and his word is the bible.

I see. Then it is really strange that you cannot recognize the revelation of Baha'u'llah. It seems to me you are not familiar with the baha'i faith very much. it is what the Son promised, when he said I go, and come back again.
There are more proofs in the Baha'i Faith than any other faith.
Moreover, it is the most recent revelation with teaching for this Age, the Bible is from God, but we believe it was meant for older Ages.

 

[1robin]

I see. Then it is really strange that you cannot recognize the revelation of Baha'u'llah. It seems to me you are not familiar with the baha'i faith very much. it is what the Son promised, when he said I go, and come back again.

You have shown me nothing that would indicate why I should believe it to be anything but a new age oriental philosophy. If by son you are reffering to Christ then you are mistaken. He promised to come back at the end of things. He also said he would not come back until the temple in Israel was built. Since it has not been rebuilt then your claim is false. If you knew the bible better you would realize it warns against false teachings appearing in the latter days and suggests ways to test them. Baha i' fails those tests so far.

There are more proofs in the Baha'i Faith than any other faith.

Then why have you not shown these proofs. I have asked numerous times for them and have not yet received a single example.

Moreover, it is the most recent revelation with teaching for this Age, the Bible is from God, but we believe it was meant for older Ages.

When it came is no argument for legitimacy. One thing has nothing to do with the other. Since the son (Christ) said that anyone that adds writings that they claim came from God after the bible was completed is accursed why do you think Baha i is compatible with Christianity when Christ rejected all future religions and prophets after the new testament was completed? Baha i is not true by association even if it was associated with Christianity. See if you can supply the same types of proofs or evidence as I did for the bible. If it is as you say this should be easy.

 

[FearGod]

Prophecies in Islam were a multi,and to mention just a few which have been even studied by a christian called now Abdur-Raheem Greene,he said :

I myself was influenced by my knowledge of the Bible to accept the Prophethood of Muhammad, and have had two Jewish rabbis admitting to me in Speaker's Corner that Muhammad was the Prophet spoken of in their books. It has long been recognised that a sure sign of the truth of a claim to Prophethood is the ability of that individual to accurately and consistently predict future events. This is especially true of Christians who often demand "what did Muhammad prophecy?". This is because the Bible lays down this as a means to distinguish a true Prophet from a false . Everybody is able to predict the future sometimes, some are able to get it right a lot of the time, but only someone who is receiving information from the One who has complete knowledge of the future can get it right every time. There are many predictions both in the Qur'an and the authenticated sayings of the Prophet Muhammed that have been fulfilled.
Read his article here

The question is what prophecies are in Bahai aside from that in the 20th century the world will be one nation and all will be united in one religion which is the bahai.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You have shown me nothing that would indicate why I should believe it to be anything but a new age oriental philosophy.

That would take a long time to show you, because too much information. But I believe if you start spending time to investigate, eventually you learn.
Did someone show you the proof of Chritianity to you, or you spent and learn about it gradually? How long did it take you to learn enough about Jesus and Bible to find out those proofs in it?

If by son you are reffering to Christ then you are mistaken. He promised to come back at the end of things.

By the end of the things, is meant the end of the Age, which already passed.
It will take too much time to explain it, but I can show you where you can read for the proof that the end of time (or Age) is already passed. If you decided to read it, then I can discuss it with you.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 110-112

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 67-72

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 45-61

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 36-44

He also said he would not come back until the temple in Israel was built. Since it has not been rebuilt then your claim is false. If you knew the bible better you would realize it warns against false teachings appearing in the latter days and suggests ways to test them. Baha i' fails those tests so far.

This prophecy is already fulfilled too. But you read those links above, then we discuss this one. It needs to be a step by step discussion!

See if you can supply the same types of proofs or evidence as I did for the bible. If it is as you say this should be easy.

The list that you provided, is very subjective. Most people would not agree with them. If ask Atheists, they can discuss it and show you, how in their view, they are not a proof!
I think I had already posted a list for Baha'i Revelation. There is at list one list available:

1. Tablets with the tone of command and authority.
2. Those with the tone of servitude, meekness and supplication.
3. Writings dealing with interpretation of the old Scriptures, religious beliefs and doctrines of the past.
4. Writings in which laws and ordinances have been enjoined for this age and laws of the past abrogated.
5. Mystical Writings.
6. Tablets concerning matters of government and world order, and those addressed to the kings.
7. Tablets dealing with subjects of learning and knowledge, divine philosophy, mysteries of creation, medicine, alchemy, etc.
8. Tablets exhorting men to education, goodly character and divine virtues.
9. Tablets dealing with social teachings.



For scientific discoveries, see:
Bahá'í Faith and science - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

for prophecies see:
Bahá'í prophecies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The question is what prophecies are in Bahai aside from that in the 20th century the world will be one nation and all will be united in one religion which is the bahai.

There are many fulfilled prophecies in Baha'i Scriptures:

• 1 Historical events
  • 1.1 The downfall of various leaders
    • 1.1.1 Sultan Abdu'l-Aziz
    • 1.1.2 `Alí Pashá
    • 1.1.3 Napoleon III
    • 1.1.4 Caliphate
    1.2 The rise and fall of Communism
  • 1.3 The outbreak of World War(s)
  2 Scientific discoveries
• A ruler who will raise up the Bahá'í Faith
• 4 The establishment of a World Commonwealth
  • 4.1 The Lesser Peace
  • 4.2 Signs for the coming of age of the human race
  • 4.3 The establishment of a World Commonwealth
  • 4.4 The Most Great Peace
• 5 The next Manifestation of God

 

[FearGod]

There are many fulfilled prophecies in Baha'i Scriptures:

• 1 Historical events
  • 1.1 The downfall of various leaders
    • 1.1.1 Sultan Abdu'l-Aziz
    • 1.1.2 `Alí Pashá
    • 1.1.3 Napoleon III
    • 1.1.4 Caliphate
    1.2 The rise and fall of Communism
  • 1.3 The outbreak of World War(s)
  2 Scientific discoveries
• A ruler who will raise up the Bahá'í Faith
• 4 The establishment of a World Commonwealth
  • 4.1 The Lesser Peace
  • 4.2 Signs for the coming of age of the human race
  • 4.3 The establishment of a World Commonwealth
  • 4.4 The Most Great Peace
• 5 The next Manifestation of God

it is saying that there are 2 scientific discoveries among them is the atomic bomb

"Strange and astonishing things exist in the earth but they are hidden from the minds and
the understanding of men. These things are capable of changing the whole atmosphere of the earth and their contamination would prove lethal."

Why he didn't say a type of grenades,explosives or bombs......etc.

premitive bombs were known at his times and there was no reason not to be mentioned here.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Regarding the claim that the Koran is the same book as it was when it was first written, it's difficult to trust imams that make such a claim when they so ignorantly try to teach that the NT is somehow different than it was when written in the first century. Why do these imams make fools of themselves when they make such claims about the NT? Because verifying corruption in the NT is something we can actually take a scientific approach toward. We have around 24,000 ancient NT manuscripts with around 5000 in the original Greek. These are manuscripts that are from all over the ancient world. Spotting corruption is a matter of comparing the texts. Though the earliest fragments are from the 2nd cetury, using linguistics scholars can easily reconstruct the original. It's estimated that the NT has been handed down to us wth 99.5% accuracy compared to the original

 

[FearGod]

Regarding the claim that the Koran is the same book as it was when it was first written, it's difficult to trust imams that make such a claim when they so ignorantly try to teach that the NT is somehow different than it was when written in the first century. Why do these imams make fools of themselves when they make such claims about the NT? Because verifying corruption in the NT is something we can actually take a scientific approach toward. We have around 24,000 ancient NT manuscripts with around 5000 in the original Greek. These are manuscripts that are from all over the ancient world. Spotting corruption is a matter of comparing the texts. Though the earliest fragments are from the 2nd cetury, using linguistics scholars can easily reconstruct the original. It's estimated that the NT has been handed down to us wth 99.5% accuracy compared to the original

Short video about corruption in bible

[youtube]oZpg4Zgyj2g[/youtube]
Ahmed Deedat Answers- Corruption in Bible or Quran! - YouTube

 

[-Peacemaker-]

It took Deedat all but 1 minute to make a completely ignorant statement by saying that Christians are largely unaware of the debate surrounding the Apocrypha

 

[FearGod]

It took Deedat all but 1 minute to make a completely ignorant statement by saying that Christians are largely unaware of the debate surrounding the Apocrypha

So while you know about Apocrypha and you're still saying that the bible have never changed.:slap:

 

[F0uad]

Regarding the claim that the Koran is the same book as it was when it was first written, it's difficult to trust imams that make such a claim when they so ignorantly try to teach that the NT is somehow different than it was when written in the first century. Why do these imams make fools of themselves when they make such claims about the NT? Because verifying corruption in the NT is something we can actually take a scientific approach toward. We have around 24,000 ancient NT manuscripts with around 5000 in the original Greek. These are manuscripts that are from all over the ancient world. Spotting corruption is a matter of comparing the texts. Though the earliest fragments are from the 2nd cetury, using linguistics scholars can easily reconstruct the original. It's estimated that the NT has been handed down to us wth 99.5% accuracy compared to the original

Its not a claim its a fact, Imams make no such claims maybe debaters imams are just people who lead people to prayer you can compare them with priests, the arguments and claims are coming from Historians. 5000 Scripts that have over 400,000 variants are not reliable in my opinion and it doesn't matter how small or big they are. If you agree that they are from the 2nd Century then they are not reliable at all.

It took Deedat all but 1 minute to make a completely ignorant statement by saying that Christians are largely unaware of the debate surrounding the Apocrypha

In that time people were unaware of it so its not ignorant.

1. Matt 12:47
2. Matt 17:21
3. Matt 18:11
4. Matt 21:44
5. Matt 23:14
6. Mark 7:16
7. Mark 9:44
8. Mark 9:46
9. Mark 11:26
10. Mark 15:28
11. Mark 16: from verse 9 to 20
12. Luke 17:36
13. Luke 22:43
14. Luke 22:44
15. Luke 23:17
16. Luke 24:12
17. Luke 24:40
18. John 5:4
19. John from 7:53 TILL 8:11
20. Acts 8:37
21. Acts 15:34
22. Acts 24:7
23. Acts 28:29
24. Rom 16:24
25. 2 Cor 13:14
26. James 1:8

Guess what these are some of the verses that are removed from the Greek bible.
If you wonder why its because these verses are interpolations, add-ons and were put in there by Jewish/Gentile scribes. So your assumption is flaud.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Say: We believe in God, and that which has been sent down on us, and sent down on Abraham and Ishmael, Isaac and Jacob, and the Tribes, and in that which was given to Moses and Jesus, and the Prophets, of their Lord; we make no division between any of them, and to Him we surrender. 3:84

He who chooses a religion other than Islam, it will not be accepted from him, and in the Everlasting Life he will be among the losers. 3:85

The true religion with God is Islam. Those who were given the Book were not at variance except after the knowledge came to them, being insolent one to another. And whoso disbelieves in Gods signs. God is swift at the reckoning. 3:19

In accordance with the above holy writings of the Qur’an, the only religion
accepted by God is Islam. Islam means surrender or resignation of one’s will to God’s
will and whoever follows Islam is a Muslim. The Qur’an refers to followers of other
religions that believe in God as Muslims, for example, Noah is called a Muslim.
(Yunus – 10:72-73)
Moses and His followers are called Muslims (A’raf – 7:123) and (Yunus – 10:84)
Disciples of Christ are called Muslims – “And when I revealed unto the Disciples,
(of Christ), ‘Believe in Me and on My Sent One!’ they said, ‘We believe; and bear
witness we are Muslims’.” (Ma’idah – 5:111)
Thus we see that what the Author of the Qur’an meant by “Islam” was the
universal religion of God – true believers of God, that submit their will to the will of God​

– past, present and future, and not limited to the followers of Muhammad only.


http://gy.bahai.org/publications/islamic_prophecies.pdf

 

[InvestigateTruth]

it is saying that there are 2 scientific discoveries among them is the atomic bomb

"Strange and astonishing things exist in the earth but they are hidden from the minds and
the understanding of men. These things are capable of changing the whole atmosphere of the earth and their contamination would prove lethal."

Why he didn't say a type of grenades,explosives or bombs......etc.

premitive bombs were known at his times and there was no reason not to be mentioned here.

The answer is in the same verse: "These things are capable of changing the whole atmosphere of the earth and their contamination would prove lethal."

other types such as grenades,explosives or bombs do not contaminate the whole atmosphere of the earth, so, He must have been refering to nuclear.
Baha'u'llah only revealed what God told Him and allowed Him to reveal.

Why Prophet Muhammad didn't reveal in Quran about Nuclear? I would say because, He only revealed what God asked Him.

 

[FearGod]

In accordance with the above holy writings of the Qur’an, the only religion​

accepted by God is Islam. Islam means surrender or resignation of one’s will to God’s
will and whoever follows Islam is a Muslim. The Qur’an refers to followers of other
religions that believe in God as Muslims, for example, Noah is called a Muslim.
(Yunus – 10:72-73)
Moses and His followers are called Muslims (A’raf – 7:123) and (Yunus – 10:84)
Disciples of Christ are called Muslims – “And when I revealed unto the Disciples,
(of Christ), ‘Believe in Me and on My Sent One!’ they said, ‘We believe; and bear
witness we are Muslims’.” (Ma’idah – 5:111)
Thus we see that what the Author of the Qur’an meant by “Islam” was the
universal religion of God – true believers of God, that submit their will to the will of God​

– past, present and future, and not limited to the followers of Muhammad only.


[URL]http://gy.bahai.org/publications/islamic_prophecies.pdf[/URL]

Aha,so bahaulla is a muslim similar to moses,noah.....etc,
but you are not a muslim but bahaullah,yes,yes,yes,how brilliant you are.