Koran:...Jesus is the Son...

[Apple Pie]

يأهل الكتب لا تغلوا في دينكم ولا تقولوا على الله إلا الحق إنما المسيح عيسى ابنمريم رسول الله وكلمته ألقيها إلى مريم وروح منه فءامنوا بالله ورسله ولا تقولواثلثة انتهوا خيرا لكم إنما الله إله وحد سبحنه أن يكون له ولد له ما في السموت ومافي الأرض وكفى بالله وكيلا

Ya ahla alkitabi la taghloo fee deenikum wala taqooloo AAala Allahi illa alhaqqa innama almaseehu AAeesa ibnu maryama rasoolu Allahi wakalimatuhu alqaha ila maryama waroohun minhu faaminoo biAllahi warusulihi wala taqooloo thalathatun intahoo khayran lakum innama Allahu ilahun wahidun subhanahu an yakoona lahu waladun lahu ma fee alssamawati wama fee al-ardi wakafa biAllahi wakeelan


4.171 You The Book's family, certainly do not go beyond the limits in your faith, and certainly they say against “allah” except the truth , only the Messiah Jesus, Mary's son, a message ; “allah” and his word cast forth to her Mary, and Spirit from him; so believe on account of “allah”, and His messengers, and certainly they say: "Three." Refrain (it is) agreeable certainly your only “allah”one god glory be to him, that He has certainly been his child, truly his; what not in the heavens and not in the earth and He sufficed on account of “allah”, a witness.


All,

Is there a cognizant Muslim out there that can please explain how it is that 4.171 plainly states that Jesus is the Son….?


Further, how is it that 4.171 proclaims all the elements of the Biblical Trinity…

• Father
• Son
• Spirit

Thanks…

 

[Ali Ansari]

this reply was posted before by Nehustan
I have to take you as being serious, tho' I am sure you are just attempting to purposefully mistranslate as you obviously have some knowledge of Arabic....you are taking parts of different sentences, and putting them together for instance....the Arabic reads.....

سُبْحَانَهُ أَن يَكُونَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ
لَّهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَات وَمَا فِي الأَرْضِ
وَكَفَى بِاللّهِ وَكِيلاً​

Thus when you take.... the 'lahu waladun' from the first sentence, and add the 'lahu' from the second sentence, you are infact creating an emphasis that is not present in any normal reading of the Arabic. What you have presented is...

لَهُ وَلَدٌ لَّهُ ​

which for the reasons above is not a correct rendering of the Arabic. The second 'lahu', with the affixed 3rd person male singular pronoun refers to the following 'sentence'...

لَّهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَات وَمَا فِي الأَرْضِ​

To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth



It does not refer back to the line I have given as the rhetorical question. I was prepared to break that sentence, leaving out 'Subhanahu' سُبْحَانَهُ (glory be to him), stating that for a Muslim this exhaltation frames the next part of the sentence أَن يَكُونَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ which is clearly predicated by سُبْحَانَهُ, in fact by the whole Quran generally (never mind 1400 years of Arab speakers and their Islamic sciences) and the rest of this ayat specifically.



I'm not sure why you have chosen to bring this up with us, as we will obviously see straight through this ludicrous assertation, I'd say it was an honest mistake, but you do appear to have some grasp of Arabic, so one must presume it was intentional.



You then go on to propose that in ayat 4:172 it says that Jesus will gather people to himself. It does not....It does refer to the Messiah, the Angels, and those closest to Allah. It then goes on to say that in reference to those too proud to serve Allah, as opposed to say the messiah, angels, and those closest (i.e. other prophets and believers), ''He' will gather them to himself'. This then is gathered to the presence of Allah, not Jesus, the messiah.


The Messiah disdaineth nor to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, nor those nearest. Those who disdain His worship and are arrogant, He will gather them all together unto Himself. (4:172)



You then go on to the next ayat, using the premise that the He in these ayat refers to Jesus, however contextually, and in fact from the text the 'He' relates to Allah, again it is predicated by the quoted text, and/or the whole of the Quran and Islamic writing/thought....


But to those who believe and do deeds of righteousness, He will give their rewards, and more, out of His bounty: But those who are disdainful and arrogant, He will punish with a grievous penalty; Nor will they find, besides Allah, any to protect or help them. (4:173)


Finally you quote another ayat...this as with the first ayat is 'addressed', i.e. it bears a specific group of people as its (the ayat's) recipient. With 4:171 the people it was directed to where the people of the book, presumably in this instance the 'Christians' as it then goes on to dispute Trinity. Here the address is to a new and wider group, but does in fact refer back to the knowledge just covered, it says 'O People/Mankind'...


O mankind! verily there hath come to you a convincing proof from your Lord: For We have sent unto you a light manifest. (4:174)


Here the Quran is the light which is manifest, this light is not the light to the children of Israel, which would be Jesus and his living gospel, tho' indeed Jesus was a light to his people (even one may add a light to the gentiles), as one might argue is suggested in 24:35-36. This light is a light to all mankind, this light is the Quran, tho' of course it may be invisible to the blind, or hard to understand if one cannot, or indeed chooses not to be able to, read.

 

[Ali Ansari]

well Apple pie you are trying to prove Desperately from Quran that Jesus is God or He is Son of God and you also trying to prove trinity from Quran. which you can never prove even from the Holy Bible.

OK leave it I want to Ask you a Question.
do you believe that Quran is the Word of God?

if NO then why you are trying so hard to prove these type of things, for what?
if YES then why don't you accept the truth of Islam, why?

are you saying that no one has invited you

I am Inviting you to the religion of Pease.

 

[TashaN]

Dear Apple Pie, The Moderator moved your old thread with the same topic to the debate forum because it's a debating topic more than asking questions about islam.

This is the link for your old thread.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?goto=lastpost&t=33018

It seems that you are new in here, the rules in here states that if you want to debate so this is not the suitable place to do so but in the religious debate forum.

Thanks.

 

[Apple Pie]

Thus when you take.... the 'lahu waladun' from the first sentence, and add the 'lahu' from the second sentence, you are infact creating an emphasis that is not present in any normal reading of the Arabic.

The original Arabic was written without punctuation....thus, your usages of sentences are artificial in nature...

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

The original Arabic was written without punctuation....thus, your usages of sentences are artificial in nature...

It doesn't matter for the people who added the punctuation are the same one's who wrote it for the Messenger in the beginning.

 

[mohamedhassan]

I find it very Halrious when people try to use an ayah to prove something when the ayah clearly states the obvious!!! A third of the quran is talking about the oneness of Allah and his authority, but your trying to use words clearly out of context to try to prove a point which if the whole world try to come together they would never be able to find! why don't you try to find out where it says that in the bible first? No scholor of the bible will ever be able to show you where it says that in the bible, and if you ask for ans explanination they pass it off as "a mystery" look at how they ayat of quran explain something your ministers can't explain:

72. Surely, they have disbelieved who say: "Allâh is the Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary)." But the Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)] said: "O Children of Israel! Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord." Verily, whosoever sets up partners in worship with Allâh, then Allâh has forbidden Paradise for him, and the Fire will be his abode[]. And for the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong­doers) there are no helpers.
73. Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allâh is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no ilâh (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilâh (God -Allâh). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them.

and look at what Allah says:

59. Say: "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do you criticize us for no other reason than that we believe in Allâh, and in (the revelation) which has been sent down to us and in that which has been sent down before (us), and that most of you are Fâsiqûn [rebellious and disobedient (to Allâh)]?"
60. Say (O Muhammad SAW to the people of the Scripture): "Shall I inform you of something worse than that, regarding the recompense from Allâh: those (Jews) who incurred the Curse of Allâh and His Wrath, those of whom (some) He transformed into monkeys and swines, those who worshipped Tâghût[](false deities); such are worse in rank (on the Day of Resurrection in the Hell­fire), and far more astray from the Right Path (in the life of this world)."

So don't dispute something that is useless and will only waste your time on earth and worsen your time in the hereafter

My Allah guide you to the light inshallah

 

[mohamedhassan]

oh and the proper translation of the ayah stands as:
O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allâh aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allâh and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Rûh)[] created by Him; so believe in Allâh and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allâh is (the only) One Ilâh (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allâh is All­Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.[]

 

[Apple Pie]

It doesn't matter for the people who added the punctuation are the same one's who wrote it for the Messenger in the beginning.

Not unless those same people lived for hundreds of years...

 

[Apple Pie]

oh and the proper translation of the ayah stands as:
O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allâh aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allâh and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Rûh)[] created by Him; so believe in Allâh and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allâh is (the only) One Ilâh (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allâh is All­Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.[]

Interesting that your googled rendering has to insert the added words "no more than"...which DO NOT appear in the Arabic.

Be honest with yourself.

You follow Islam.

You don't folow the Koran.

This ayah clearly states that "The Truth"....is ONLY Jesus Christ...not your pagan god "allah".

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Not unless those same people lived for hundreds of years...

What are you talking about I mean Zaid ibn Thabit was one of the origingal compilers of Quran, and one of the one's appointed by Uthman to write the Uthmani script. He and a few others were central for preservation of the script. THEY WERE THE ONES WHO WERE THERE WHEN IT WAS REVEALED. When I said same I meant the same individuals. So hundreds of years difference I do not think so. The Khalifa's reign all of them was like 20 plus years. Where are you getting hundreds of years from.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Interesting that your googled rendering has to insert the added words "no more than"...which DO NOT appear in the Arabic.

Be honest with yourself.

You follow Islam.

You don
This ayah clearly states that "The Truth"....is ONLY Jesus Christ...not your pagan god "allah".

Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha, LOLLOLLOLLOLlOL:biglaugh:

That is so ridiculous it is funny.

 

[Apple Pie]

What are you talking about I mean Zaid ibn Thabit was one of the origingal compilers of Quran, and one of the one's appointed by Uthman to write the Uthmani script. He and a few others were central for preservation of the script. THEY WERE THE ONES WHO WERE THERE WHEN IT WAS REVEALED. When I said same I meant the same individuals. So hundreds of years difference I do not think so. The Khalifa's reign all of them was like 20 plus years. Where are you getting hundreds of years from.

Since there are no original extant Korans in the known world - only mere FRAGMENTS of suras dated to over a century after the supposed life and times of your so-called prophet...then you would be most hard pressed to prove your point...

 

[Apple Pie]

Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha, LOLLOLLOLLOLlOL:biglaugh:

That is so ridiculous it is funny.

The laughs on you...:yes:

 

[maro]

Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha, LOLLOLLOLLOLlOL:biglaugh:

That is so ridiculous it is funny.

i'll second that
this thread is quite amusing and funny :beach:

thanks to the man, he is teaching us our book and our first language

 

[Djamila]

Is there a cognizant Muslim out there that can please explain how it is that 4.171 plainly states that Jesus is the Son….?

Certainly not, because it doesn't.

 

[Sahar]

Certainly not, because it doesn't.

 

[Katzpur]

*** MOD POST ***​

As a reminder to all non-Muslims, please do not engage in debate on this DIR forum. It is intended as a place where you can pose respectful questions on Islam. Please -- if you want to debate one of the tenets of Islam -- do so on a debate forum, and not here.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Since there are no original extant Korans in the known world - only mere FRAGMENTS of suras dated to over a century after the supposed life and times of your so-called prophet...then you would be most hard pressed to prove your point...

Where is your evidence for any of this. From the research of what scholar did you compile this stuff or are you wikiislaming it again. The Quran with the Uthmani script is to still intact. It still has the blood of Uthman the 3rd calipha, companion of the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him on the pages. You have no evidence and you are just making blanket statements.

Uthman was a companion, it was the companions who wrote for the Messenger of Allah. They did it all through his life. Uthman a close companion of the Messenger of Allah. The fourth best man ever after the Prophets and Messengers.

You are implying that somehow the companions who wrote it originally on whatever they could find. whether rocks or camel hide whatever. Among them are Zaid ibn Haritha, Ali ibn abu talib, zaid ibn Thabit, Umar ibn Kattab, Jafar, Uthman etc. These same companions commissioned the putting of all these scraps into one book. And to secure it in the speech of Quraishi dialect which is a part of his sunnah.

Explain to me if they compiled it in the time of Uthman. That you came to the understanding that it was over a century.

Do not believe in his life and times. It is funny that the worlds greatest minds and leaders have spoken about him. You are the one who is hard pressed to prove anypoint.

 

[astarath]

Interesting that your googled rendering has to insert the added words "no more than"...which DO NOT appear in the Arabic.

Be honest with yourself.

You follow Islam.

You don't folow the Koran.

This ayah clearly states that "The Truth"....is ONLY Jesus Christ...not your pagan god "allah".

It is interesting to me you use the term "Pagan" as though you know what that means. Paganism originated as a worship of a polytheistic system of Earth Gods and thus can not be applied to the Monotheistic ideals of Islam.

Secondly your posts, threads and accusations against our brothers in Allah are not befitting Christ as they are not acts of compassion or love nor do they glorify God. Rather they glorify your own personal "crusade" for validation of your personal translations of a long established set of tenets and beliefs. Truly we are to know our brothers by the fruit they bear, and you sir are producing very bad fruit indeed. Meanwhile I find many brothers of the muslim faith who offer you peace, love, understanding and knowledge. These are all things of God. These are good fruits.

I myself am not muslim but I follow the will and direction of Yahweh and your acts do not suit a son of God. Rather more suiting to a wolf in sheeps clothing, a false prophet speaking false words in the name of God. Your lips speak his name but your heart is far from him.

I do not say these things to hurt, harm or anger but rather to call them to your attention in front of brothers of God and have you change your ways so they become pleasing to God.

Truly love God and your neighbour!