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Knowledge of material things, closeness to God and imposters

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Personally I doubt there was a time when the material universe did not exist in some form, even if if only as a singularity.

But let's assume that there was a time when God created the material universe and all that is in it.

If such a thing was created by an all-knowing creator, then I would assume that creator would have the most knowledge of material things.

Then whilst it would be difficult to distinguish between a person with great knowledge and God, nonetheless by having a great knowledge of material things a great many imposters claiming to speak on behalf of God could be ruled out on the basis of their lack of knowledge of material things, since if they were speaking on behalf of God they could relay God's knowledge.

Therefore I contend that even if you are only seeking to get into heaven, since you dont want to waste your time with imposters who claim to speak for God but can't really get you into heaven because they don't have access to God's knowledge, material knowledge is a great way of exposing frauds who don't really speak for the all-knowing creator of the universe.

Thoughts?
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Personally I doubt there was a time when the material universe did not exist in some form, even if if only as a singularity.
Since time (or spacetime, to be more precise) is part of the material Universe, I would say you are tautologically right.

CIao

- viole
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Personally I doubt there was a time when the material universe did not exist in some form, even if if only as a singularity.

But let's assume that there was a time when God created the material universe and all that is in it.

If such a thing was created by an all-knowing creator, then I would assume that creator would have the most knowledge of material things.

Then whilst it would be difficult to distinguish between a person with great knowledge and God, nonetheless by having a great knowledge of material things a great many imposters claiming to speak on behalf of God could be ruled out on the basis of their lack of knowledge of material things, since if they were speaking on behalf of God they could relay God's knowledge.

Therefore I contend that even if you are only seeking to get into heaven, since you dont want to waste your time with imposters who claim to speak for God but can't really get you into heaven because they don't have access to God's knowledge, material knowledge is a great way of exposing frauds who don't really speak for the all-knowing creator of the universe.

Thoughts?

One thing that came to mind as a foundation to understand what you're saying, how did you come to the conclusion an all powerful god had some play if even the creator of the universe?

Even if you had an idea that some "thing" had, how did you come to the conclusion that something alone is a someone, is all powerful, and has some characteristics that you know if to speak and ask questions regarding it?

I don't believe that there are imposters who speak for god (and wouldn't phrase it that way). I just feel the people who speak for god (via their scriptures) really don't know the difference between what they read and recite and what they say god says that isn't in their scriptures. There's another word for it, but I don't think it's just as nice. I'm kinda at a loss how they do so any way. It's one thing to experience god but it's another to put a voice to that experience.
 

Regiomontanus

Retired astronomer, Russian Orthodox
Personally I doubt there was a time when the material universe did not exist in some form, even if if only as a singularity.

But let's assume that there was a time when God created the material universe and all that is in it.

If such a thing was created by an all-knowing creator, then I would assume that creator would have the most knowledge of material things.

Then whilst it would be difficult to distinguish between a person with great knowledge and God, nonetheless by having a great knowledge of material things a great many imposters claiming to speak on behalf of God could be ruled out on the basis of their lack of knowledge of material things, since if they were speaking on behalf of God they could relay God's knowledge.

Therefore I contend that even if you are only seeking to get into heaven, since you dont want to waste your time with imposters who claim to speak for God but can't really get you into heaven because they don't have access to God's knowledge, material knowledge is a great way of exposing frauds who don't really speak for the all-knowing creator of the universe.

Thoughts?

"...material knowledge is a great way of exposing frauds who don't really speak for the all-knowing creator of the universe."

Assuming one was divinely inspired, would it necessarily be about physics? That is, must one be knowledgeable about material things to be a prophet?

But I do agree that studying the natural world can bring you closer to Him. I am with Kepler

“The Creator, the fountain of all wisdom, the approver of perpetual order, the eternal and superessential spring of geometry and harmonics.”

And by the way, singularities very likely do not actually exist (outside of Star Trek).
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Personally I doubt there was a time when the material universe did not exist in some form, even if if only as a singularity.

But let's assume that there was a time when God created the material universe and all that is in it.

If such a thing was created by an all-knowing creator, then I would assume that creator would have the most knowledge of material things.

Then whilst it would be difficult to distinguish between a person with great knowledge and God, nonetheless by having a great knowledge of material things a great many imposters claiming to speak on behalf of God could be ruled out on the basis of their lack of knowledge of material things, since if they were speaking on behalf of God they could relay God's knowledge.

Therefore I contend that even if you are only seeking to get into heaven, since you dont want to waste your time with imposters who claim to speak for God but can't really get you into heaven because they don't have access to God's knowledge, material knowledge is a great way of exposing frauds who don't really speak for the all-knowing creator of the universe.

Thoughts?
If a God can minuplate anything material then there must be a material point of contact.

It's why objective evidence is required, and not optional.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Therefore I contend that even if you are only seeking to get into heaven, since you don't want to waste your time with imposters who claim to speak for God but can't really get you into heaven because they don't have access to God's knowledge, material knowledge is a great way of exposing frauds who don't really speak for the all-knowing creator of the universe.
You sure of existence of heaven, hell, God / Allah and 'REAL' prophets / sons / messengers / manifestations / mahdis? I am not.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
One thing that came to mind as a foundation to understand what you're saying, how did you come to the conclusion an all powerful god had some play if even the creator of the universe?

Even if you had an idea that some "thing" had, how did you come to the conclusion that something alone is a someone, is all powerful, and has some characteristics that you know if to speak and ask questions regarding it?

I don't believe that there are imposters who speak for god (and wouldn't phrase it that way). I just feel the people who speak for god (via their scriptures) really don't know the difference between what they read and recite and what they say god says that isn't in their scriptures. There's another word for it, but I don't think it's just as nice. I'm kinda at a loss how they do so any way. It's one thing to experience god but it's another to put a voice to that experience.
If you check carefully you will note that I said All-knowing, not all-powerful.

In this purely hypothetical situation God only needs enough power to create the universe and all that is therein.

And I was posting it as a hypothetical, so as to examine a specific set of beliefs of a poster who appeared to believe in an All-knowing creator of the material universe who sent instructions on how to get to heaven. The poster appeared to believe that material knowledge would only lead him away from the specified God/heaven, so I founded this post to essentially question why.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Assuming one was divinely inspired, would it necessarily be about physics? That is, must one be knowledgeable about material things to be a prophet?
It is an interesting question, but if you really had a hotline to speak directly for God, I would have tended to assume you could ask God the answer to any question that has an answer. It would certainly expose the weaker contenders to Prophethood if that where the case.

But even if the prophet is only inspired to tell you how to get to heaven, I would assume that the instructions given should still be in accordance with reason if connected to the source of all reason.

Other wise how do you tell if the instructions are not from God? For example if someone tells you to commit suicide to go to heaven or tells you even a relatively trivial albeit nonsensical instruction on how to get to heaven?
 

Regiomontanus

Retired astronomer, Russian Orthodox
It is an interesting question, but if you really had a hotline to speak directly for God, I would have tended to assume you could ask God the answer to any question that has an answer. It would certainly expose the weaker contenders to Prophethood if that where the case.

But even if the prophet is only inspired to tell you how to get to heaven, I would assume that the instructions given should still be in accordance with reason if connected to the source of all reason.

Other wise how do you tell if the instructions are not from God? For example if someone tells you to commit suicide to go to heaven or tells you even a relatively trivial albeit nonsensical instruction on how to get to heaven?

If such a connection was made I think the nature of it would reflect the divine essence of the Creator, which if only ever glimpsed in a very imperfect way, would simply be LOVE.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Personally I doubt there was a time when the material universe did not exist in some form, even if if only as a singularity.

But let's assume that there was a time when God created the material universe and all that is in it.

If such a thing was created by an all-knowing creator, then I would assume that creator would have the most knowledge of material things.

Then whilst it would be difficult to distinguish between a person with great knowledge and God, nonetheless by having a great knowledge of material things a great many imposters claiming to speak on behalf of God could be ruled out on the basis of their lack of knowledge of material things, since if they were speaking on behalf of God they could relay God's knowledge.

Therefore I contend that even if you are only seeking to get into heaven, since you dont want to waste your time with imposters who claim to speak for God but can't really get you into heaven because they don't have access to God's knowledge, material knowledge is a great way of exposing frauds who don't really speak for the all-knowing creator of the universe.

Thoughts?
One of the things I consider is that some people's wisdom has withstood the test of time, and others have fallen by the wayside as they are mediocre. Also, some faith traditions have sifted and resifted teachings, so that you get the wisdom of countless of the wisest saged -- a kind of distilled wisdom. Obviously these are much superior places to look than some newbie kid on the block claiming to be the latest guru or messiah or sage. IOW People who invent their own personal religions don't impress me in the slightest -- I rather think that avenue is conceited.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
One of the things I consider is that some people's wisdom has withstood the test of time, and others have fallen by the wayside as they are mediocre. Also, some faith traditions have sifted and resifted teachings, so that you get the wisdom of countless of the wisest saged -- a kind of distilled wisdom. Obviously these are much superior places to look than some newbie kid on the block claiming to be the latest guru or messiah or sage. IOW People who invent their own personal religions don't impress me in the slightest -- I rather think that avenue is conceited.
Judaism is mediocre in my opinion. And your claims of how much superior it is to other religions is itself conceited.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Judaism is mediocre in my opinion. And your claims of how much superior it is to other religions is itself conceited.
Did you think I was talking only about Judaism? There are many world religions that fall into the description I gave. I don't proselytize.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Did you think I was talking only about Judaism? There are many world religions that fall into the description I gave. I don't proselytize.
Which world religion is not claimed to be founded by a guru, messiah or sage?

And PS, it is possible to proselytise for more than one religion in my opinion.
 
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IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Which world religion is not claimed to be founded by a guru, messiah or sage?

And PS, it is possible to proselytise for more than one religion in my opinion.
One of the reasons a religion goes on to pass the test of time is because it has a powerful beginning through an uncommonly gifted person. That's why all the major world religions fall under the description I gave. Other religions?. We call them things like little cults, or tribal religions. And there are a few new kids on the block that may eventually become major world religions but just don't have enough track life yet, like Baha'i.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
One of the reasons a religion goes on to pass the test of time is because it has a powerful beginning through an uncommonly gifted person. That's why all the major world religions fall under the description I gave. Other religions?. We call them things like little cults, or tribal religions. And there are a few new kids on the block that may eventually become major world religions but just don't have enough track life yet, like Baha'i.
Many indigenous religions are tribal. And if you dont proselytize why the need to pejoratively describe them at all?

Without the benefit of time how do you know which ones will grow to be major and which ones will just remain tribal?

Since you defined Judaism as major and not tribal how are you defining major religions?
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Many indigenous religions are tribal. And if you dont proselytize why the need to pejoratively describe them at all?

Without the benefit of time how do you know which ones will grow to be major and which ones will just remain tribal?

Since you defined Judaism as major and not tribal how are you defining major religions?
I don't believe I described tribal religions at all, pejoratively or otherwise. Judaism, btw, is a tribal religion if you stop to think about it. In the past, most tribes have lacked literacy, and thus have not had the chance to perculate over thousands of years. Those that do, do have the opportunity to become world religions. Only time will tell which will and which won't. That's why you have to wait.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I don't believe I described tribal religions at all, pejoratively or otherwise.
Ok, when you said we call them "things like little cults, or tribal religions" i got the impression that you were using the phrase "little cults" and the phrase "tribal religions" interchangeably. I'm inclined to think if people were to call Judaism a little cult you would probably understand the term cult is often used in a pejorative manner.

Judaism, btw, is a tribal religion if you stop to think about it.
Agreed

Only time will tell which will and which won't. That's why you have to wait.
You have to wait to see which ones will become global, but you dont have to wait to see which religions if any are of value, that only requires independent thought process.

The reward of using independent thought process is that you dont have to wait till after you're dead to pick up any good ideas which are new.

In fact I would point out that if there were not independent thinkers none of the world religions would ever have even been founded, let alone progressed to what they are today.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Ok, when you said we call them "things like little cults, or tribal religions" i got the impression that you were using the phrase "little cults" and the phrase "tribal religions" interchangeably.
Oh, no, not in the slightest! I knew a guy who was into something called Jewislanity -- a combination of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity -- which he had found on a website. It was so small it didn't even have a wiki page. That's the sort of thing I mean by a small little cult. Not tribal religions.

Indeed I have gotten a lot out of studying certain tribal religions, such as that of the Lakota with its combination of monotheism and the idea that everything has spirit. I also appreciate the idea of hozho from the Dinee.

I wouldn't convert to these religions precisely because they simply are not developed enough (not to mention the fact that I am at home in Judaism). Now that the tribes do indeed have written language, they have the chance to develop, and indeed I am watching them do so. I think they have great potential.
 
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