1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Know him before you insult him...

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by DoctorDeen, Feb 17, 2006.

  1. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2005
    Messages:
    6,768
    Ratings:
    +475
    Don't expect JerryL to be your good buddy because he doesn't like Islam. And yes to think that Islam is blasphemy is SIMPLE* logic
    * Simple meaning: 4 a : lacking in knowledge or expertise <a simple amateur of the arts> b : [size=-1]STUPID[/size]; especially : mentally retarded c : not socially or culturally sophisticated : [size=-1]NAIVE[/size]; also : [size=-1]CREDULOUS[/size]



    Yes, they can both be true. Christ was hung on the cross, and Christ's spirit was taken up to God leaving the empty flesh behind. If you look at it that way that is exactly what Muhammad says in the Qur'an.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. JerryL

    JerryL Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2005
    Messages:
    2,601
    Ratings:
    +313
    That's rhetoric, support your assertion. To deny God is blasphemous. If Jesus was God, and you deny that Jesus was God then you are blaspheming. Islam denies that Jesus was God.

    Was Jesus God?

    If "yes" then Islam is Blasphemy (and wrong).
    If "no" then Christianity is Blasphemy (and wrong).

    In either case, at least one is wrong.

    That said, if you want to continue this topic, start a new thread (if you response here, I'll likely start a new thread). I've hijacked this one farther than I would care to.
     
  3. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2005
    Messages:
    6,768
    Ratings:
    +475
    Tell you what, Jerry. Show ME where Jesus says in the Gospels that He IS God. Betcha can't. You can find lots of Christians who will not believe that Jesus WAS God.

    I know that God has no partners nor equals, and I am not a Muslim.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  4. Steve

    Steve Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2005
    Messages:
    500
    Ratings:
    +60
    Popeyesays the way you twist what Christianity and Islam teaches to acheive your goal is mind boggling, the reality is that Islam denies the Crucifixion as believed and foundational Christians so both religions cannot be true!
    "And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain." quran 4.157

    If he was not Crucified for our sins, then Christianity is wrong, it did not just appear to people as if he was Crucified otherwise it would only appear that a Christians sins have been forgiven via Christs sacrifice.
    Stop sitting on the fence and pretending you make sense!
     
  5. BUDDY

    BUDDY User of Aspercreme

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    2,031
    Ratings:
    +488
    John.1

    [1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    [2] The same was in the beginning with God.
    [3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    [4] In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
    [5] And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
    [6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
    [7] The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
    [8] He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
    [9] That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
    [10] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
    [11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
    [12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    [13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
    [14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
    [15] John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
    [16] And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
    [17] For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.


    I think that this answers your questions to the contrary, but there are other verses as well if you wish for me to share them.
     
  6. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2005
    Messages:
    6,768
    Ratings:
    +475
    Here's the verse in context from the Pickthalll translation:

    "157 And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

    158 But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.

    159 There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them -

    (The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 4 - Women)

    Here's the Rodman:

    "And for their saying, "Verily we have slain the Messiah, Jesus the son
    of Mary, an Apostle of God." Yet they slew him not, and they crucified him not,
    but they had only his likeness. And they who differed about him were in doubt
    concerning him: No sure knowledge had they about him, but followed only an
    opinion, and they did not really slay him, but God took him up to Himself. And
    God is Mighty, Wise!

    These shall not be one of the people of the Book but shall believe in
    Him before his death, and in the day of resurrection, He will be a witness
    against them."

    (The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura 4 - Women)

    And Yusuf Ali:

    "157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;" but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow for of a surety they killed him not.

    158. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

    159. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness against them."



    And finally the Rodwsell translation:

    "But for that they broke their compact, and for their misbelief in God's signs, and for their killing the prophets undeservedly, and for their saying, 'Our hearts are uncircumcised,'- nay, God hath stamped on them their misbelief, so that they cannot believe except a few,- and for their misbelief, and for their saying about Mary a mighty calumny, and for their saying, 'Verily, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, the apostle of God,'...but they did not kill him, and they did not crucify him, but a similitude was made for them. And verily, those who differ about him are in doubt concerning him; they have no knowledge concerning him, but only follow an opinion. They did not kill him, for sure! nay, God raised him up unto Himself; for God is mighty and wise!
    And there shall not be one of the people of the Book but shall believe in him before his death; and on the day of judgment he shall be a witness against them."

    (The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 4 - Women)



    I stand by my interpretation. The shell of flesh left on the cross was NOT Jesus. Jesus was taken up to God in Spirit. That is what Christians believe for the most part.



    Regards,

    Scott









     
  7. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2005
    Messages:
    6,768
    Ratings:
    +475
    Nope. It does not say that Jesus was God, it says He was the Word Made Flesh, and I agree. He was the summation of all creation - creation is flesh (material). The "Word" of John's Gospel is God's desire to CREATE, the Word is literally "BE!" And all creation including the Christ Spirit came to BE!.

    Besides those are not the words of Jesus. Do you have a red letter version? If so you will find that all of the quoted words of Christ are in red letters. John is not recording anything Christ said at all in the opening chapter that you have quoted.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  8. Judgement Day

    Judgement Day Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    420
    Ratings:
    +55
    According to the bible that im using here (new world translation of the holy scriptures), verse (1) and (2):

    1. In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
    2. This one was in [the] beginning with God.


    Notice the small 'g' on the second word of 'god' in the first verse. Even though if the 'Word' refers to Jesus, it is not 'god' with the capital 'G'. 'god' here means similar to 'lord' or 'master' or something similar.
    The second verse indicates that the 'Word' was in the beginning with God. This clearly says that there are 2 seperate beings.
     
  9. Ibrahim Al-Amin

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2006
    Messages:
    199
    Ratings:
    +33
    If you're referring to your 5th-grade logic problem, then yes I do. If you're referring to an irrelevant distraction used in a debate to offset an opponent, then no I don't. I tell you what, let's forget about beating your wife and discuss the issue at hand. Deal? This way, you can go on thinking you're pretty clever, and I can pretend you don't exist.
     
  10. Steve

    Steve Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2005
    Messages:
    500
    Ratings:
    +60
    Ok well if thats what you believe stop saying you also believe the Christian religion is true, because your statment above shows you dont believe its true.
    A Christian believes Jesus was crucified and died for their sin, that this made atonement for them and made it possible for them to be reconciled to a God who will not just let sin go unpunished.



    unbelievable!! Now you go to the JW's twisted translation of the bible to try and find support for your theology! Could you be any more deceptive?

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. NIV

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. KJV

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. ESV

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. ASV

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. NASB

    Notice the capital G's?
     
  11. Ibrahim Al-Amin

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2006
    Messages:
    199
    Ratings:
    +33
    Oh, the old, "Jesus was the logos substitution argument." I'm in concert with Popeyesays. Jesus does not claim to be God here. Anywhere else?
     
  12. Ibrahim Al-Amin

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2006
    Messages:
    199
    Ratings:
    +33
    Oh I see. Simply discredit the "twisted" version that doesn't conform to your version of Christianity? Is that how you conclude your truths, by predetermining what is not valid?
     
  13. Steve

    Steve Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2005
    Messages:
    500
    Ratings:
    +60
    Apply your own logic to the translation you are trying to defend! JW's predetermined what they believed the bible teaches and translated to suit.
    Thats why i showed so many other translations, the truth is the verse is correctly translated with a capital G and without "a" as in "a god".

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. NIV

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. KJV

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. ESV

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. ASV

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. NASB

    The NWO translation is so clearly twisted and traslated to fit a predefined theory that i find it hard to take seriously anyone who tries to use it to back up their case.



    Why wouldnt one use that argument? Its supported throughout scripture that Christ is the word of God, the logos.
    He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
    KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelations 19:13-16

    While we are on the topic of who Jesus really is heres some more from Revelation.
    "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8

    "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." Revelation 22:13

    When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades. Revelation 1:17-18

    "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
    "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
    "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star." Revelation 22:12-16
     
  14. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2005
    Messages:
    6,768
    Ratings:
    +475
    I ran across this translation (World Wide English trans) which is particularly appropriate to the idea that the "Word" is the creative impulse of God, and that Jesus and the other Great Prophets were the embodiment of that creative impulse:
    "
    John 1



    1The Word already was, way back before anything began to be. The Word and God were together. The Word was God.

    2Before anything began to be, the Word was there with God.

    3God made everything by the Word. Nothing has been made without him.

    4Life was in the Word. That life was Light for people. 5The Light shone where it was dark and the darkness did not stop the Light from shining. "

    It was I who originally asked for proof of a claim made by Jesus in His own words IN the GOSPELS that He was God, and you give me a half-dozen verses from the Apocalypse. That does not fulfill my criteria for proof, so I am still unconvinced.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  15. BUDDY

    BUDDY User of Aspercreme

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    2,031
    Ratings:
    +488
    I was pretending that you don't exist too, but then I drew a pretty funny cartoon of what I think that you look like, and so now I have something that I can relate to.
     
  16. BUDDY

    BUDDY User of Aspercreme

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    2,031
    Ratings:
    +488
    John 8
    [58] Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    The term "I am" is the exact term that God used in Exodus 3:14 in reference to Himself! Jesus professed to be the eternal God of the Bible.

    John 10
    [28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    [29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
    [30] I and my Father are one.

    Who else is able to give eternal life except God? Only God can, and Jesus himself says that they are one in the same. Can't get much plainer than that.

    Matthew 28
    [19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    If Jesus Christ isn't Deity, then why did He include Himself in the Holy Trinity?

    John 14
    [9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

    He again equates himself with God.

    That's all for now, but there are still more if you actually need it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2005
    Messages:
    6,768
    Ratings:
    +475
    We've discussed the the Before Abraham verse already.

    Jesus and God are one in purpose, that does not mean they are the same substance.

    No man has seen God, to see Jesus or Moses, or Muhammad is to see as close to God as any man can.

    The trinity? One believes in it as you do or one does not.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  18. Ibrahim Al-Amin

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2006
    Messages:
    199
    Ratings:
    +33
    Ok, truce. Although that joke is at my expense, it's hilarious. I can respect anyone with a good sense of humor. :biglaugh:
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. sky87

    sky87 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2006
    Messages:
    41
    Ratings:
    +7
    back to the topic, i'd like to respond to some of the posts. man, im so tired of this, however i'm going to stand up for my religion, and repeat myself yet again :banghead3 our prophet (pbuh) believed in peace, he did not like war, he only entered war when it was "necessary", and even when he did enter war, there were specific rules to abide by, such as not killing innocent people, or any other living thing besides the ones that are attacking you. doctordeen is correct in saying that the muslims who have reacted to the danish cartoon controversy are the ones that haven't understood the true principles that our prophet (pbuh) stood by. there is an example, our prophet (pbuh) was walking down an alley where he was attacked by non-believers, these people threw stones and rocks at him, but he kept on walking, and when he was safe, instead of cursing at them, he prayed for them to be led on the right path, it is only when a whole town was being attacked (people being killed, threatened, etc; etc ) that he decided that war was necessary, it was the only way to keep away the opposers. and us being muslims should follow our prophet (pbuh) and follow what he did, and of course the danish cartoon controversy had me very upset, but i knew that our prophet (pbuh) would never react in a violent manner, especially over a cartoon, of course a peaceful protest to stop the further printing of the cartoons would be a good idea, but burning down western buildings, etc; etc; is plain idiotic, hasty, and stupid! it seems to me that many people on this forum dont have the right knowledge of islam, and i dont blame all of them for it, especially since they weren't exposed to anything good about islam through the media anyway, our bad leaders have given us a bad name, but please try to understand that most muslims are not like that, most of us are following the true religion of islam, the one that was revealed upon our beloved prophet muhammad (pbuh). And one more thing that I would like to request from all you is that even if you aren't a muslim, you should still respect our beliefs, and not take part in this whole cartoon controversy, just recently my university published a cartoon on him, and it has me very upset to see that people are ruthlessly insulting our prophet (pbuh) and are unable to understand and respect our religion
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Steve

    Steve Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2005
    Messages:
    500
    Ratings:
    +60
    You have got to be kidding :banghead3
     
Loading...