Know him before you insult him...

[Ibrahim Al-Amin]

I do salute you though for coming right out and saying that you have a preconceived notion of christianity and the christian believe, and that you are swayed by your prejudice. Keep this same honesty up and we may be able to get somewhere in a discussion. For instance, are you ready then to admit that many muslims, and in particular those who are participating in thos violence because of some cartoons, are taking to seriously the attempt at light heartedness, attempted by the editors of these newspapers? Are you ready to admit that these muslims have no sense of humor? Are you ready to admit that they refuse to take personal responsibility for their actions, and use these cartoons simply as an excuse to commit acts of violence? Since we are all being honest here, how do you answer these questions Ibrahim?

And by the way, since you do not appreciate people characterizing all muslims as being a particular type of person, I would like to advise you not to do the same with Christians. Remember the Golden Rule and all of that?

The difference between us is that I have educated myself in both Christianity and Islam. I spent 32 years as a Christian. I attended 12 years of Catholic School. Fortunately, somehow, I did not acquire the sense of spiritual superiority common among some Christians, and its inherent bigotry and narrow-mindedness. Instead of assuming I understood the world because of what I read in the newspapers, I sought the truth (with a lower-case "t"). So, if you truly want to have an "honest" discussion (your words), perhaps a more accurate understanding of the Muslim religion is in oder on your side, instead of accusations of a misunderstanding of Christianity on my side.

And one thing you don't understand is that there are two major "traditions" of Islam. I am of the "rationalist" tradition. The rationalist tradition tries to view the world logically. Unfortunately, for a few hundred years, the rationalist tradition has been in the minority, but is steadily gaining prestige again.

So to answer your question, yes, some Muslims are going overboard in their reactions to the cartoon controversy. I understand standing them up for their beliefs, in fact, our notions of freedom of speech allows them to, just as it allows the cartoonists to draw silly pictures. What many don't understand is that the rioters are not reacting to the cartoons. They are reacting to continued Western disrespect and misunderstanding. The cartoons merely provide the "excuse" for violence by a frustrated people. I believe they're wrong and I believe they're doing themselves a disservice.

Why they are reacting so insane is best left to the academics. Whether one is a follower of Huntington's doomsday Clash of Civilizations scenario, or merely a believer of a "haves versus the have-nots" historical scenario, doesn't matter. What matters is how we, as a global society, learn from it, and how can we form a better understanding.

So, you can continue hating me if you want. I believe, however, if you made a truthful effort to understand Islam, you would not be so angry at Muslims.

 

[jamaesi]

Does it have pictures?

Photography didn't exist back then. I, personally, hate "artistic" speculations on what things or people looked like. They're usuallywrong.

Depicting the Prophet is mostly against Islam. Why provoke that? I don't tease Jews with pork or Buddhists with hamburgers.

Are we two-year olds in need of pictures to soothe our lack of attention spans?

 

[Steve]

Then why unleash your venom on Muhammad only? What about Jospeh Smith? David Koresh? Satan? Obviously yours is a political agenda.

I dont just take issue with mohummed, i disagree with any person who denies Christ and what he did for me. Why would you expect me to bring up "Jospeh Smith? David Koresh? Satan?" in this thread about mohummed though?

You must believe that good Christian men don't beat their wives. Well, you're in for quite a shocker.

If a man beats his wife he is not good no matter what he calls himself. Although i think what buddy was getting at when he said "have you stopped beating your wife yet" was its an impossible question to answer you cant say yes or no because the question is so loaded.

Notice, in all of these threads, which group consistently assaults Muhammad specifically, and Islam generally. If there's a jab, you can almost bet it's a "good" Christian.

And in a sense, so it should be. Christians believe that Christ was crucified for them, that he made atonement for them and reconciled them back to God. Why wouldnt a good christian take offence at islam and mohummad who deny Christs greatest sacrifice for us? Islam is an attack on what Christians hold dearest to them, the sacrifice Christ made for mankind.

Buddhists, Taoists, Jews, Satanists, Atheists, or whatever, are much less ignorant and much more accepting of Muhammad. Why? I don't know.

Why - i do know, it has alot to do with what i said above, islams assult on who Christ really was and what he did for us.
A "Buddhists, Taoists, Jews, Satanists, Atheists, or whatever" wont be offended at the islamic message the same way Christians are because they dont belive Christs made the sacrifice and atonement Christians believe he did.

Maybe it's because Western Christianity has been convinced of its universal superiority for so long, that Christians are the only rightful winners of God's love. And I add "Western," because such offenses rarely come from Orthodox Christians.

Of course Christians believe Christianity is universal superiority, why would they remain Christians if they thought it wasnt the truth? I believe Christianity is superior to every other faith around, if i didnt then i woldnt be Christian, id instead be whatever i thought was better and truthful?

So please, before you embarrass yourself and your religion again, understand what you are writing and do some research before you label yourself a bigot.

Perhaps you should step back and do some research and ask yourself some questions regarding why Christians may feel the way they do.
And just for the record i dont think BUDDY embarrassed himself at all, but rather raised some good points.

 

[JerryL]

So, if you truly want to have an "honest" discussion (your words), perhaps a more accurate understanding of the Muslim religion is in oder on your side, instead of accusations of a misunderstanding of Christianity on my side.

Reread his post carefully. He did not make an accuracy comment, he made a comment to the fact that you are prejudicing and generalizing. You have, indeed, done both.

Nor is your personal experience as a Christian all that relevent to your generalization of Christians. You do indeed seem to be doing to Christians what you complain they are doing to you (judge the group by the actions and opinions of some). Personally, my bigget problem with it is the hypocracy.

And one thing you don't understand is that there are two major "traditions" of Islam. I am of the "rationalist" tradition. The rationalist tradition tries to view the world logically. Unfortunately, for a few hundred years, the rationalist tradition has been in the minority, but is steadily gaining prestige again.

There are dozens of traditions of Christianity, orthidox, reformist, charismatic, gnostic, etc.

What many don't understand is that the rioters are not reacting to the cartoons. They are reacting to continued Western disrespect and misunderstanding. The cartoons merely provide the "excuse" for violence by a frustrated people. I believe they're wrong and I believe they're doing themselves a disservice.

We agree.

So, you can continue hating me if you want. I believe, however, if you made a truthful effort to understand Islam, you would not be so angry at Muslims.

I don't think he made a comment on Islam; he made a comment on your post.

 

[Ezzedean]

This is utter nonsense. Muhammad was a judge and a leader who organized a great number of tribes that had never been organized and unified before. He established a framework for an empire. Muhammad was an interesting figure - born into an insignificant family within a very significant tribe. After he had his so-called revelation, which a Christian woman confirmed as true, he ended up leaving his home town for Medina. (Like Jesus, Muhammad found out that the people that have always known you really don't buy the whole "touched by god" thing). I don't think Muhammad was a profit. I think he was a pioneer in the Arab Justice System, and as a great political leader.

Although our thoughts on whether Mohammed was a prophet or not....I must thank you for that response to such a rough post of who Steve seems to think Mohammed was.

Peace be unto you Darkdale
Ezzedean Fadel

 

[Ezzedean]

oops.. I meant to say our thoughts differ (on whether Mohammed was a prophet or not)... but i'm sure u got that.

Peace and Blessings
Ezzedean

 

[Ibrahim Al-Amin]

Nor is your personal experience as a Christian all that relevent to your generalization of Christians. You do indeed seem to be doing to Christians what you complain they are doing to you (judge the group by the actions and opinions of some). Personally, my bigget problem with it is the hypocracy.

Here's my quote: "I did not acquire the sense of spiritual superiority common among SOME Christians, and its inherent bigotry and narrow-mindedness." I capitalized "some" for emphasis.

I was not generalizing. There are SOME who are convinced of their spiritual superiority. And they are the ones shouting the loudest on these boards about the evils of Islam versus the glories of Christianity.

 

[Ibrahim Al-Amin]

Wrong. The correct answer is mu. http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/M/mu.html

I guess then that my supposition in the first place was correct, and you are ignorant. Please do some research about my "beating your wife" question, before you reply in such a ridiculous way.

I

Oh I see, if someone doesn't read the same books you read they are "ignorant." I do have a copy of Godel, Escher, Bach, and I read it about 12 years ago, but I don't remember this logic problem. I'm a scientist, not a philosopher.

 

[Deut 13:1]

No. It was ignited by those who counterpose barbarism to democracy. Islam is as Islam does, and it is appearing increasingly deranged and dangerous.

Don't worry, if the Islamic community can't clean up its act, the US will do it for them. US Marines coming to a country near you, Summer 2006.

 

[c0da]

Don't worry, if the Islamic community can't clean up its act, the US will do it for them. US Marines coming to a country near you, Summer 2006.

Does that mean we can expect to see your guys here in England this Summer?

 

[Peace]

One only needs to read the history and actions of this man to decide who or what he really was, it is the islamic extreamists around now who best represent him.

I would advice you not to call yourself a Christian, for a good Christian would never insult. I find it a shame and improper and has nothing to do with good manners to insult somebody, and what about insulting a Prophet? what will we call that? I really pity you.
You only show up to attack Islam. Go and see your posts and you will see that you image appear as an enemy of Muslims and Islam and that all you arguments are based on nonsense and lies about Islam, and whenever you come up with verses from the Quran it's always taken out of context in order to distort the verses.
I do really pity you, you have a . I wish you will have a pure heart and soul instead of sealed ones. But I wish and you wish and God does what He wishes.

 

[JerryL]

I would advice you not to call yourself a Christian, for a good Christian would never insult.

Didn't Jesus have some pretty poor things to say about money lenders in the temple? Isn't Islam blasphemy (from a Christian perspective)? Isn't blasphemy like the first commandment and punishable by death under both the OT and Quran?

 

[Popeyesays]

Didn't Jesus have some pretty poor things to say about money lenders in the temple? Isn't Islam blasphemy (from a Christian perspective)? Isn't blasphemy like the first commandment and punishable by death under both the OT and Quran?[/color]

I would understand that argument made by someone who accepts Christianity, but you're not a Christian. So why muddy the waters?

Regards,
Scott

 

[JerryL]

I would understand that argument made by someone who accepts Christianity, but you're not a Christian. So why muddy the waters?

You are neither Christian nor muslim; so you would not be allowed to participate in such an argument per your own standard.

Fortunately for me, I can do so without being a hypocrite as I have no such standard. Sucks to be you.

 

[BUDDY]

Oh I see, if someone doesn't read the same books you read they are "ignorant." I do have a copy of Godel, Escher, Bach, and I read it about 12 years ago, but I don't remember this logic problem. I'm a scientist, not a philosopher.

You realyl have no idea what, "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" means in debate do you?

 

[Popeyesays]

You are neither Christian nor muslim; so you would not be allowed to participate in such an argument per your own standard.

Fortunately for me, I can do so without being a hypocrite as I have no such standard. Sucks to be you.

Actually, I accept both Christianity and Islam as true religion. Whenever it sucks to be me, I can take refuge in the thought that I ain't you.

Regars,
Scott

 

[Ezzedean]

Didn't Jesus have some pretty poor things to say about money lenders in the temple? Isn't Islam blasphemy (from a Christian perspective)? Isn't blasphemy like the first commandment and punishable by death under both the OT and Quran?[/color]

Isn't one of the commandments to not to place anyone above or beside God, and to believe in his oneness? Do Christians not seem to do that with Jesus? Not trying to stir things up, but I have been noticing a lot more dislike and rudeness towards the Muslims lately in these threads. Just trying to keep things peaceful and respectful guys, let's try and represent who we really are.

Peace be upon all of you.
Ezzedean Fadel

 

[Popeyesays]

Isn't one of the commandments to not to place anyone above or beside God, and to believe in his oneness? Do Christians not seem to do that with Jesus? Not trying to stir things up, but I have been noticing a lot more dislike and rudeness towards the Muslims lately in these threads. Just trying to keep things peaceful and respectful guys, let's try and represent who we really are.

Peace be upon all of you.
Ezzedean Fadel

To my understanding, the problem is that the title "Son of God" has become more than metaphoric with Christians. They tend to insist that Christ is the literal son of God and therefore co-equal to God.

Islam says that God willed Jesus to be and He was. Mary was the vessel to carry the child, but only the "will of God" was the father.

"He said, 'Verily, I am a servant of God; He has brought me the Book, and He has made me a prophet, and He has made me blessed wherever I be; and He has required of me prayer and almsgiving so long as I live, and piety towards my mother, and has not made me a miserable tyrant; and peace upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised up alive.' That is, Jesus the son of Mary,-by the word of truth whereon ye do dispute!
God could not take to himself any son! celebrated be His praise! when He decrees a matter He only says to it, 'BE,' and it is; and, verily, God is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him; this is the right way."
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 19 - Mary)

Even saying that there is no "physical sonship" does not demean that station of Christ.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Steve]

Isn't one of the commandments to not to place anyone above or beside God, and to believe in his oneness? Do Christians not seem to do that with Jesus? Not trying to stir things up, but I have been noticing a lot more dislike and rudeness towards the Muslims lately in these threads. Just trying to keep things peaceful and respectful guys, let's try and represent who we really are.

Jesus is God, so calling him God or making him equal to God, is not a sin.
It depends on your understanding of who God is, a Christian understands God as - the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So calling either of those persons God is not wrong. Calling the Son or the Father God is not wrong as is made clear in the bible eg.

Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. John 5:22-23

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.


Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

......

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1-5,14

Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" John 20:28
​

 

[Steve]

Didn't Jesus have some pretty poor things to say about money lenders in the temple? Isn't Islam blasphemy (from a Christian perspective)? Isn't blasphemy like the first commandment and punishable by death under both the OT and Quran?

I would understand that argument made by someone who accepts Christianity, but you're not a Christian. So why muddy the waters?

Popeyesays rather then muddy the waters he is clearing them, Islam is a blaphemy from a Christian perspective, it denies the greatest sacrifice God made for us, and why exactly would JerryL need to be a Christian to point this out? Its just simple logic.

Actually, I accept both Christianity and Islam as true religion.

They both cannot be true, they explicitly contradict each other on key issues, this is so plain and simple to see to anyone who really wants to know what either of the 2 religions teach.

Tell me Popeyesays was Christ crucified? Christianity says he was, and it goes into alot of detail as to why. Islam comes along about 600 years later and says he wasnt at the word of one man . They both cannot be true.