Know him before you insult him...

[sojourner]

That would be analogous to saying Germans can never critisize nations who commit genocide, or southerners can not critisize people who are racists. The statement holds absolutely no water because unfortunately none of us were alive for the crusades, etc. Christians were silent during the holocaust? I thought that is what you wanted! Maybe they were fixated on that log in their own eye?

No. The Church should have spoken up during the Holocaust to defend the Jews against hatred. The keeping silent was the hypocritical act.

I'm not saying "don't speak out against wrongdoing." I'm saying "don't slap someone with one hand for stealing, while you're stealing with the other hand." The Germans can and should speak out against genocidal nations. They've been there. The point is, they're not there now. They've turned from that act -- they don't do it anymore. Southerners who are patently racist have no business pointing the racist finger at others. Southerners who are not racist, point away!

Part of my point was that some people tend to lump everyone into the same mold. Not all Christians are loving. Not all southerners are racist. Not all Muslims are terrorist hate-mongers.

But, unfortunately, some Christians keep committing the same acts and insist on the same mind set. What was once advocacy of slavery turned into oppression of women. And that has become the denial of equal rights to homosexuals. Many of those Christians refuse to fix the problem, while pointing the longest finger at Islam. I say, until those Christians can deal effectively with their small-mindedness, they shouldn't point the finger at others for the same thing.

 

[lovedmb]

But, unfortunately, some Christians keep committing the same acts and insist on the same mind set. What was once advocacy of slavery turned into oppression of women. And that has become the denial of equal rights to homosexuals. Many of those Christians refuse to fix the problem, while pointing the longest finger at Islam. I say, until those Christians can deal effectively with their small-mindedness, they shouldn't point the finger at others for the same thing.

What comes to mind when you bring this up, is the silence on the types of comments made by the likes of Pat Robertson. When specifically asked, most Christians will tell you they think he is an extremist, and an idiot, but why no loud outcry when one of their "own" speaks such hatered and calls for the death of presidents, etc?
Is Pat Roberston in the minority? Sure. Does he get alot of media coverage? Yes. What does the rest of the world see? Him spouting off, and the Christians of our nation standing silent.
I don't see much difference.

 

[kevmicsmi]

No. The Church should have spoken up during the Holocaust to defend the Jews against hatred. The keeping silent was the hypocritical act.

I'm not saying "don't speak out against wrongdoing." I'm saying "don't slap someone with one hand for stealing, while you're stealing with the other hand." The Germans can and should speak out against genocidal nations. They've been there. The point is, they're not there now. They've turned from that act -- they don't do it anymore. Southerners who are patently racist have no business pointing the racist finger at others. Southerners who are not racist, point away!

Part of my point was that some people tend to lump everyone into the same mold. Not all Christians are loving. Not all southerners are racist. Not all Muslims are terrorist hate-mongers.

But, unfortunately, some Christians keep committing the same acts and insist on the same mind set. What was once advocacy of slavery turned into oppression of women. And that has become the denial of equal rights to homosexuals. Many of those Christians refuse to fix the problem, while pointing the longest finger at Islam. I say, until those Christians can deal effectively with their small-mindedness, they shouldn't point the finger at others for the same thing.

Again, I will use an analogy. Someone who speeds still has the right to critisize murderers, right? Now which is worse, opposing gay marriage, or rioting in the streets and burning buses because of a cartoon? Granted not all Muslims are violent, however, the extreme Islamists are many in number, I would argue too many to brush off as a tiny fringe. Their is a difference between Christians "small-mindedness" (close mindedness?), and a prevailing attitude of hate and violence that is prevelant in the middle east.

We are agreed though, every group imaginable has their own crazies like Pat Robertson.

 

[TashaN]

I know plennty about who the "prophet" really was, a murderer, hypocrite, and the orginator of a religion that is the oposite of liberating etc for its people and those who come in contact with it.
One only needs to read the history and actions of this man to decide who or what he really was, it is the islamic extreamists around now who best represent him.

I don't believe that you are really a christian.

Did Jesus Christ taught you to treat others and insult them in this way?
How about if they were prophets "at least in our eyes" if you don't believe in him"?
I'll not answer to your insulting because i know well Jesus didn't teach that because i follow what Jesus Christ taught us and what prophet Mohammed taught us too.

Jesus Christ "peace be upon him" taught us to forgive our enemies and to give them the other cheek too if they slaped the first one.

Mohammed "peace be upon him" also taught us to not be harsh, to control our anger because the others maybe are unaware of such a thing, to forgive, to love and to care.

May Allah lead you to all the truth one day.

 

[lovedmb]

Again, I will use an analogy. Someone who speeds still has the right to critisize murderers, right? Now which is worse, opposing gay marriage, or rioting in the streets and burning buses because of a cartoon? Granted not all Muslims are violent, however, the extreme Islamists are many in number, I would argue too many to brush off as a tiny fringe. Their is a difference between Christians "small-mindedness" (close mindedness?), and a prevailing attitude of hate and violence that is prevelant in the middle east.

We are agreed though, every group imaginable has their own crazies like Pat Robertson.

LOL, right. Like Americans are so above rioting in the streets and burning cars.
Now they don't do it over religion....but horror of horrors if their basketball team doesn't win (or worse yet DOES win) the national title. That is a much better reason to inflict violence upon a community!

 

[Quiddity]

No. The Church should have spoken up during the Holocaust to defend the Jews against hatred. The keeping silent was the hypocritical act.

What Church? Rest assured that Pope Pius XII and the Catholic Church were resolute in their opposition to Hitler and the Nazis.

 

[Darkdale]

You Christians who say, "Islam is as Islam does" need to remember American slavery, cross-burning, the silence of the Church during the Holocaust, the Inquisition, Apartheid, Northern Ireland, and the Christian President who turns a blind eye to prisoner torture. You need to remember that the world looks at us and says, "Christianity is as Christianity does." If you don't want to be seen as hate-mongering religious extremists -- if you don't want Jesus portrayed that way through the actions of his followers -- you -- then you need to stop worrying about the speck in the eye of your Muslim neighbors and concern yourselves more with the log in your own eye.

I agree with the beginning of your statement, but I also believe that Christianity is as Christianity does. I think Christianity has seen some very, VERY dark times, and has at times been evil. The important thing is to make sure you can tell the difference between the statement, "Islam has become a religion of extremism and violence," and "All muslims are extremists and are violent".

An inability to distinguish between the meaning of these two sentences has no doubt caused a great deal of controversy and anger.

 

[SoyLeche]

The ongoing Danish cartoon controversy was ignited simply because those people do not know who the Prophet really was and think that Islam is a violent religion that incites its followers to kill anyone who is simply non-Muslim which is completely not true.It was therefore obligatory on me and every muslim in the world to spread the real image of Islam. Doing so, I put this website between your hands and you are free to decide what Islam really is. Please forward this message to all muslims and non-muslims you know . ​

​

http://www.islamway.com/mohammad/​

YOURS TRULY,​

DOCTOR DEEN​

No, do not put the blame for these riots on the heads of the cartoonists. The cartoons may have been drawn because the artist don't "know who the prophet really was" - but the controversy comes from the thousands of people - who supposedly do know who Muhammad really was - who take a zing at their prophet as a reason to riot.

 

[c0da]

LOL, right. Like Americans are so above rioting in the streets and burning cars.
Now they don't do it over religion....but horror of horrors if their basketball team doesn't win (or worse yet DOES win) the national title.

Woah, woah, woah. Aren't you meant to be against making generalisations?

 

[dan]

No. It was ignited by those who counterpose barbarism to democracy. Islam is as Islam does, and it is appearing increasingly deranged and dangerous.

So you have an understanding of everything that every Muslim does? Or maybe you're just exposed to the extremism that is chosen by the media to represent Islam to the world?

 

[dan]

No, do not put the blame for these riots on the heads of the cartoonists. The cartoons may have been drawn because the artist don't "know who the prophet really was" - but the controversy comes from the thousands of people - who supposedly do know who Muhammad really was - who take a zing at their prophet as a reason to riot.

The cartoons were drawn in response to a request by a Newspaper looking for cartoons for a piece they were doing about how they had the right to blaspheme God. It was a deliberate slap to Islam and was designed only to sensationalize the paper. Everyone has to take responsibility here. If you comment about the issue then you better have done your homework, because I am an editorial cartoonist and I know this issue inside and out.

 

[kevmicsmi]

LOL, right. Like Americans are so above rioting in the streets and burning cars.
Now they don't do it over religion....but horror of horrors if their basketball team doesn't win (or worse yet DOES win) the national title. That is a much better reason to inflict violence upon a community!

I dont know of many americans who have called for the beheading of a basketball team's opponent, or of any who while rioting tried to kill people. I would certainly bet that not many of the rioters are Christians either.

 

[Steve]

I know plennty about who the "prophet" really was, a murderer, hypocrite, and the orginator of a religion that is the oposite of liberating etc for its people and those who come in contact with it.
One only needs to read the history and actions of this man to decide who or what he really was, it is the islamic extreamists around now who best represent him.

I don't believe that you are really a christian.

Did Jesus Christ taught you to treat others and insult them in this way?
How about if they were prophets "at least in our eyes" if you don't believe in him"?
I'll not answer to your insulting because i know well Jesus didn't teach that because i follow what Jesus Christ taught us and what prophet Mohammed taught us too.
Jesus Christ "peace be upon him" taught us to forgive our enemies and to give them the other cheek too if they slaped the first one.
Mohammed "peace be upon him" also taught us to not be harsh, to control our anger because the others maybe are unaware of such a thing, to forgive, to love and to care.

It was Christ who said to "judge for yourselves what is right" - but he was certainly as others have pointed out against hypocritical judgement with that in mind - This thread was started with the idea of getting to know mohammed and judging him on his actions not his followers etc - I do know alot of mohammeds history and actions and have come to the conclusion that - "One only needs to read the history and actions of this man to decide who or what he really was, it is the islamic extreamists around now who best represent him."
People in this thread seem to have missed the point, they say people who claim to be christians have murdered etc but its islams "prophet" that this thread is suppose to be interested in, if people want to bring Christianity's originator - Christ and compare him to mohummed go ahead - the 2 certainly dont agree on pivotal matters regarding this life and the next, you do not follow what Jesus taught otherwise you would not regard a man who denied Christs sacrifice for you as a "prophet".
Mohummed didn't even understand Christianity, for example he thought the trinity was father, son and mary. And if Mohummed himself followed Christs teachings why didnt he himself turn the other cheek instead of having jews murdered as he raided different tribes, or what about the caravans he would raid and plunder? Was it Christs teachings he was following when he would make peace treaties with others only to break them when he was in better situation where he could win? How about when he married a 6 year old when he was 49?

And as someone who claims to follow Christs teachings and belives in "turn the other cheek" as you pointed out above, what do you do with your koran when it says things like -

"So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." Quran 9.5

 

[Popeyesays]

And as someone who claims to follow Christs teachings and belives in "turn the other cheek" as you pointed out above, what do you do with your koran when it says things like -

"So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." Quran 9.5

Well, first someone with any interest in the truth of Islam would only read that verse in context. I doubt that you have ever read the Qur'an in context, or you would not be quoting snippets out of context from anti-Islamic sites.

Why don't you put the previous ten verses and the following ten verses with the ONE you quote and see what it says for yourself? When you've done that come back and discuss it.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

I dont know of many americans who have called for the beheading of a basketball team's opponent, or of any who while rioting tried to kill people. I would certainly bet that not many of the rioters are Christians either.

Ever heard of British football riots? Ever heard of Kent State?

Regards,
Scott

 

[lovedmb]

Woah, woah, woah. Aren't you meant to be against making generalisations?

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you mean by this. I wasn't making a generalization in my statement. I did not say "all americans" nor did I imply any such thing.
So if I'm missing something would you mind clarifying?

 

[lovedmb]

I dont know of many americans who have called for the beheading of a basketball team's opponent, or of any who while rioting tried to kill people. I would certainly bet that not many of the rioters are Christians either.

We were speaking of rioting in the streets and setting fires.
[/QUOTE]Oh please.
Not to mention it is not just an occurance in the US, but in other countries as well.
From Wikipedia:

In 1984, violence erupted outside of Tiger Stadium in Detroit after the Detroit Tigers defeated the San Diego Padres in the World Series. A well known photo from the riot shows a Tigers fan holding a World Series pennant in front of an overturned burning Detroit Police car.
In 1990, a match between Red Star Belgrade and Dynamo Zagreb was abandoned after ten minutes with thousands of fans fighting each other and the police. One of the Zagreb player was seen to kick a policeman, and after an hour long riot, the stadium was set on fire.
In 1993, Monica Seles was stabbed by a Steffi Graf fan during a changeover at a tennis match in Germany.
During the 1994 World Cup, Colombia football (soccer) player Andrés Escobar accidentally scored an own goal in a match against the United States, a match which Colombia lost 2-1. On his return to Colombia, Escobar was confronted outside a bar in Medellín by a gunman who shot the player six times, killing him. The gunman reportedly shouted "¡Gol!" for each bullet fired.
In 1998, Denver Broncos fans rioted in the streets of Denver after their team won Super Bowl XXXII. Near-riots happened when the team won the Super Bowl again the following year and after the Colorado Avalanche's Stanley Cup wins in 1996 and 2001.
A similar incident occured in Oakland, California in 2003 when fans rioted and destroyed property after the Oakland Raiders loss to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in Super Bowl XXXVII.
In July 2000, 13 people were trampled to death in a riot at a 2002 World Cup qualifying match in Harare, Zimbabwe, after South Africa took a 2-0 lead over Zimbabwe.
During the Men's marathon event at the 2004 Summer Olympics, defrocked Irish priest Neil Horan burst out of the crowd to accost Brazilian race leader Vanderlei de Lima, an action which may have cost him the gold medal, although many observers have noted that he was losing ground to Stefano Baldini of Italy and Mebrahtom Keflezighi of the United States even before the attack, and they likely would have caught him anyway. De Lima ultimately placed third in the race, behind Baldini (who won) and Keflezighi. Link & photo: http://www.letsrun.com/2004/accost.php
On November 19, 2004, near the end of an NBA game between the Indiana Pacers and Detroit Pistons, a massive brawl erupted between Pacers players and Pistons supporters.
On April 12, 2005, the UEFA Champions League quarterfinal between intracity rivals AC Milan and Inter Milan was abandoned after Inter fans threw missiles and flares on to the pitch at the San Siro stadium, with AC Milan goalkeeper Dida hit by a flare.

You'll note that people in fact have died over sports related rioting. I didn't just pull this out of a hat for the heck of it.
As for your assertation that it is doubtful there were Christians involved, all I can say to that is "Yeah right.":biglaugh:

 

[TashaN]

as someone who claims to follow Christs teachings and belives in "turn the other cheek" as you pointed out above, what do you do with your koran when it says things like -

"So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." Quran 9.5

Lesson one: Don't attack before you read and understand.

About the verse, read post # 207 in this link ..

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23727&page=6&pp=40



For your other questions about his marriage with young girl, read here post # 80.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27316&page=2



You will find many other answers and many other similar questions in this thread below ..

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27316&page=1&pp=40


Peace ..

 

[Darkdale]

If Muslims can say that "Jesus was just a prophet", I have no problem with people saying that "Muhammad was just a politician and a judge". There is no proof that Muhammad was anything but a political leader and a judge, so there is nothing wrong with saying so. Muslims should learn to chill out about their prophet - most of us don't care about him.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The cartoons were drawn in response to a request by a Newspaper looking for cartoons for a piece they were doing about how they had the right to blaspheme God. It was a deliberate slap to Islam and was designed only to sensationalize the paper. Everyone has to take responsibility here. If you comment about the issue then you better have done your homework, because I am an editorial cartoonist and I know this issue inside and out.

What pompous nonsense. First ...

The drawings, including a depiction of Muhammad with a bomb inside or under his turban, were accompanied by an article on self-censorship and freedom of speech. Flemming Rose, the cultural editor of the conservative daily newspaper Jyllands-Posten, contacted approximately 40 cartoonists, and asked them to draw the prophet as they saw him. He eventually received twelve cartoons from different cartoonists for the project and published the cartoons to highlight the difficulty experienced by Danish writer Kåre Bluitgen in finding artists to illustrate his children's book about Muhammad. Artists previously approached by Bluitgen were reportedly unwilling to work with him for fear of violent attacks by extremist Muslims. [Wiki]​

As for taking responsibility, I suggest that those who create, promote, or allow Islam to serve as theological cover for backwardness and barbarism - many of whom are perhaps not unlike you, take full responsibility for the current affront against democracy.

Read Ibn Warraq - Democracy in a Cartoon.