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KJV "OT" quoters: a recommendation ...

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
... actually, two:
  1. Don't.
I agree that the KJV represents the best standards of English scholarship, built on earlier English scholarship, as it stood at the start of the 17th century, and that good 21st century scholarship is found in the most reputable recent translations.

I'm not familiar with the NKJV (1982). Can anyone tell me whether those conservative churches which insist on the KJV use it? Or are they still in the 17th century?

The great advantage of the KJV is stylistic, not textual ─ it rolls and thunders so well off the tongue when read out loud.

(I happen to have a copy of the RSV 2nd edn 1971; I find it agrees well with annotated word-by-word translations.)
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
that its the blood? maybe i should become a vampire and only drink jewish blood

I'm sure genetics has a lot to do with it. You'd need to find a way to graft Jewish DNA onto your own.

b4b792597ec0875b5a29b26a5a8c2f32.jpg
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Actually, this thread was intended primarily for those intent on rendering sophomoric critiques of verses from the Tanakh. By all means do so but, if the intent is honest dialogue, you might wish to avail yourself of the fruits of modern scholarship - as has been done, for example, by the folks behind the NRSV.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
... actually, two:
  1. Don't.
  2. If you're too too cheap, too lazy, and or too disinterested to acquire a decent Tanakh, at least consult a reasonably good translation from a Jewish source, e.g., Sefaria
וַיִּ֤פֶן אַֽחֲרָיו֙ וַיִּרְאֵ֔ם וַֽיְקַלְלֵ֖ם בְּשֵׁ֣ם יְהוָ֑ה וַתֵּצֶ֨אנָה שְׁתַּ֤יִם דֻּבִּים֙ מִן־הַיַּ֔עַר וַתְּבַקַּ֣עְנָה מֵהֶ֔ם אַרְבָּעִ֥ים וּשְׁנֵ֖י יְלָדִֽים׃

He turned around and looked at them and cursed them in the name of the LORD. Thereupon, two she-bears came out of the woods and mangled forty-two of the children.

wat·tə·ḇaq·qa‘·nāh — 1 Occurrence

2 Kings 2:24
HEB: מִן־ הַיַּ֔עַר וַתְּבַקַּ֣עְנָה מֵהֶ֔ם אַרְבָּעִ֥ים
NAS: out of the woods and tore up forty-two
KJV: out of the wood, and tare forty
INT: out of the woods and tore like forty

Definition
to cleave, break open or through
NASB Translation
breached (3), break (4), break forth (1), break through (1), breaks forth (1), breaks open (1), broke open (1), broke through (2), broken (3), burst (2), burst open (1), cleaved (1), dashed to pieces (1), divide (1), divided (4), forth (1), hatch (2), hews (1), invaded (1), make for ourselves a breach (1), rip (1), ripped (1), ripped open (2), shook (1), split (7), split open (1), splits (1), tear (1), tore (2), torn (2).

through
THro͞o/
preposition & adverb
  1. 1.
    moving in one side and out of the other side of (an opening, channel, or location).
    "stepping boldly through the doorway"
    synonyms: into and out of, to the other side of, to the far side of, from one side to the other of
the sea and divide it,
and he split wood
deep burst open, and the floodgates
so the waters were divided.
mighty men broke through the camp
so that the earth shook at their noise
swords, to break through to the king
 
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YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
I think he is just being hateful.
Though I seem to be on his ****list as of late, I've never thought of Jay's comments as being hateful. Biting, yes. Hateful, no. It's an art-form, really.

Actually, this thread was intended primarily for those intent on rendering sophomoric critiques of verses from the Tanakh. By all means do so but, if the intent is honest dialogue, you might wish to avail yourself of the fruits of modern scholarship - as has been done, for example, by the folks behind the NRSV.
Thank you, @Jayhawker Soule
That could indeed be helpful for many.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
I think that I do take their interpretations into consideration, and it is the correct thing to do if we are going to say that we are Bible-based. Consider this couple verses in Romans about it: "What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God." (Romans 3:1-2) This also bears out historically as they have kept the written words very carefully, so I don't see why any Christian would want to evade Jewish interpretations.

It's true there is much merit in Jewish traditions and scripture. But obviously when Jesus came around there was a division of interpretations and beliefs. Celebrate the commonalities and shrug off the discrepancies I say. But interchanging the 3 Abrahamic religions is not acceptable in my opinion. Let each stand own it's own merits.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Actually, this thread was intended primarily for those intent on rendering sophomoric critiques of verses from the Tanakh. By all means do so but, if the intent is honest dialogue, you might wish to avail yourself of the fruits of modern scholarship - as has been done, for example, by the folks behind the NRSV.
NRSV, the copy that sits on my bedside cabinet right now. It took me a while, being raised on the poetic beauty of the Authorised Version, but I can quite get into it now; though my main version is the Judaica Press for when I quote on RF.
 
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rosends

Well-Known Member
וַיִּ֤פֶן אַֽחֲרָיו֙ וַיִּרְאֵ֔ם וַֽיְקַלְלֵ֖ם בְּשֵׁ֣ם יְהוָ֑ה וַתֵּצֶ֨אנָה שְׁתַּ֤יִם דֻּבִּים֙ מִן־הַיַּ֔עַר וַתְּבַקַּ֣עְנָה מֵהֶ֔ם אַרְבָּעִ֥ים וּשְׁנֵ֖י יְלָדִֽים׃

He turned around and looked at them and cursed them in the name of the LORD. Thereupon, two she-bears came out of the woods and mangled forty-two of the children.

wat·tə·ḇaq·qa‘·nāh — 1 Occurrence

2 Kings 2:24
HEB: מִן־ הַיַּ֔עַר וַתְּבַקַּ֣עְנָה מֵהֶ֔ם אַרְבָּעִ֥ים
NAS: out of the woods and tore up forty-two
KJV: out of the wood, and tare forty
INT: out of the woods and tore like forty

Definition
to cleave, break open or through
NASB Translation
breached (3), break (4), break forth (1), break through (1), breaks forth (1), breaks open (1), broke open (1), broke through (2), broken (3), burst (2), burst open (1), cleaved (1), dashed to pieces (1), divide (1), divided (4), forth (1), hatch (2), hews (1), invaded (1), make for ourselves a breach (1), rip (1), ripped (1), ripped open (2), shook (1), split (7), split open (1), splits (1), tear (1), tore (2), torn (2).

through
THro͞o/
preposition & adverb
  1. 1.
    moving in one side and out of the other side of (an opening, channel, or location).
    "stepping boldly through the doorway"
    synonyms: into and out of, to the other side of, to the far side of, from one side to the other of
the sea and divide it,
and he split wood
deep burst open, and the floodgates
so the waters were divided.
mighty men broke through the camp
so that the earth shook at their noise
swords, to break through to the king
Don't forget the Aramaic, וּבְזָעָא
or the Talmudic discussion which ties it to הובקעו
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
... actually, two:
  1. Don't.
  2. If you're too too cheap, too lazy, and or too disinterested to acquire a decent Tanakh, at least consult a reasonably good translation from a Jewish source, e.g., Sefaria


For English language speakers, the KJV translation is up there with Shakespeare as one of the great masterpieces of our literature.

It isn't a very accurate Tanakh translation, granted - but I can forgive that because the KJV has exerted an incredible influence upon the English language to this day.

Even Dawkins is a fan of it from the literary point of view:


Why I want all our children to read the King James Bible | Richard Dawkins


Why I want all our children to read the King James Bible
Richard Dawkins

For some reason the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science (UK) was not approached for a donation in support of Michael Gove's plan to put a King James Bible in every state school. We would certainly have given it serious consideration, and if the trustees had not agreed I would gladly have contributed myself...

Ecclesiastes, in the 1611 translation, is one of the glories of English literature (I'm told it's pretty good in the original Hebrew, too). The whole King James Bible is littered with literary allusions, almost as many as Shakespeare (to quote that distinguished authority Anon, the trouble with Hamlet is it's so full of clichées). In The God Delusion I have a section called "Religious education as a part of literary culture" in which I list 129 biblical phrases which any cultivated English speaker will instantly recognise and many use without knowing their provenance: the salt of the earth; go the extra mile; I wash my hands of it; filthy lucre; through a glass darkly; wolf in sheep's clothing; hide your light under a bushel; no peace for the wicked; how are the mighty fallen.

A native speaker of English who has never read a word of the King James Bible is verging on the barbarian.


Here, here!

I'm sorry that you are apparently immune to its elegance and merit. Each to their own, I suppose, but this disgruntled Brit for one disagrees with you.

Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher!
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Because half the books they use are Jewish texts. It's really that simple.

With different interpretations. If the interpretations were the same the would be no difference. We would all be Christian or all be Jewish. But that is not the case is it.;)
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
With different interpretations. If the interpretations were the same the would be no difference. We would all be Christian or all be Jewish. But that is not the case is it.;)
No, we wouldn't all be Jewish because that's not how Judaism works. Christianity, in its own texts, completely mutilates verses of the Tanach, especially Paul - he does this a lot. It's in there for everyone to see. It's also not an 'interpretation'- it's often complete and deliberate mistranslation to make the verses match what their own books say.
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Actually, this thread was intended primarily for those intent on rendering sophomoric critiques of verses from the Tanakh. By all means do so but, if the intent is honest dialogue, you might wish to avail yourself of the fruits of modern scholarship - as has been done, for example, by the folks behind the NRSV.

I don't disagree with you here.

The NRSV is my preferred translation and is the one that I read from (and quote) whenever I have the notion to read the Bible.

But that doesn't make me any less appreciate of the great significance of the KJV when viewed solely as a literary document.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
It's also not an 'interpretation'- it's often complete and deliberate mistranslation to make the verses match what their own books say.

That sounds like interpretation to me. You an view it however you like. /shrug
 
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