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Kitab-i-Iqan was not a Direct Converse from/by G-d. Was it?

firedragon

Veteran Member
Bahaullah is discussing "manifestations" (in plural, with no indication of it being a term in vogue in Quran) of G-d and assumes (incorrectly) that it is an alternative of the office of "Messengers/Prophets", while there is no such thing in Quran to use it as such and Bahaullah brings out for what the people did to the "Messengers/Prophets" of G-d to whom they had been sent to,
1. Qur’án 36:30. ↩
2. Qur’án 40:5. ↩

The Quran is clear that Allah is ahadhun, and there are only rasools and nabi's who bring God's message.

If Jesus was a manifestation or what ever you call it to mean God himself, he would have said it explicitly. If Quran is the word of God, God would say it explicitly because its an important thing. Not have some verse somewhere that vaguely indicates something.

Anyway thats that. Peace.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
paarsurrey said:
Bahaullah is discussing "manifestations" (in plural, with no indication of it being a term in vogue in Quran) of G-d and assumes (incorrectly) that it is an alternative of the office of "Messengers/Prophets", while there is no such thing in Quran to use it as such and Bahaullah brings out for what the people did to the "Messengers/Prophets" of G-d to whom they had been sent to,
1. Qur’án 36:30. ↩
2. Qur’án 40:5. ↩

The Quran is clear that Allah is ahadhun, and there are only rasools and nabi's who bring God's message.

If Jesus was a manifestation or what ever you call it to mean God himself, he would have said it explicitly. If Quran is the word of God, God would say it explicitly because its an important thing. Not have some verse somewhere that vaguely indicates something.

Anyway thats that. Peace.
I will simply say as is usually mentioned in Quran that G-d sent his messengers/prophets, clearly with a message of ONENESS of Him and in a Direct Conversation with them.
One could read Surah/Chapter Yunus <The Holy Quran - Chapter: 10: Yunus> and or Hud<The Holy Quran - Chapter: 11: Hud> to get refreshed in this connection.

Regards
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
paarsurrey said:
Bahaullah is discussing "manifestations" (in plural, with no indication of it being a term in vogue in Quran) of G-d and assumes (incorrectly) that it is an alternative of the office of "Messengers/Prophets", while there is no such thing in Quran to use it as such and Bahaullah brings out for what the people did to the "Messengers/Prophets" of G-d to whom they had been sent to,
1. Qur’án 36:30. ↩
2. Qur’án 40:5. ↩


I will simply say as is usually mentioned in Quran that G-d sent his messengers/prophets, clearly with a message of ONENESS of Him and in a Direct Conversation with them.
One could read Surah/Chapter Yunus <The Holy Quran - Chapter: 10: Yunus> and or Hud<The Holy Quran - Chapter: 11: Hud> to get refreshed in this connection.

Regards

Lets take for granted that one has read both those Surahs.

Please enlighten any direct quotes that says something other than the prophets and messenngers were all mere human beings who were just rasool, rasala, messengers, message. Unless i have completely misunderstood your comment. Your comment is not very direct.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Kitab-i-Iqan was not a Direct Converse from/by G-d. Was it?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Quote, "Every Writing by the Bab and Baha'u'llah were revealed from God, just as the Quran. The difference in this day is that the Messengers wrote a lot of it with their own hands."Unquote

Friend! I know that is one's belief, but now one has to prove it to help us understand one's belief with reason or, is it one acknowledgement that one's belief is in blindfaith, please?
The above sentence colored in magenta is one's conjecture in general which entails that the whole book of Iqan is Direct Converse of/from G-d with Bahaullah. So we need these claims from within the main text of Iqan (Farsi or English) in an unequivocal and straightforward manner that:
  1. the whole Iqan is Direct Converse of/from G-d with Bahaullah.
  2. Iqan is not authored by Bahaullah.
  3. and the natural words in the main text of Iqan demonstrate to that effect.
Right, please?

We now take verses 31-35 of Iqan :

31
و قوله: "تُظلَمُ الشَّمسُ وَالقَمَرُ لا يُعطی ضَوءَهُ وَ الکَواکبُ تَتَساقَطُ مِنَ السَّماء." مقصود از شمس و قمر که در کلمات انبياء مذکور است منحصر به اين شمس و قمر ظاهری نيست که ملاحظه می شود. بلکه از شمس و قمر معانی بسيار اراده فرموده‏اند که در هر مقام به مناسبت آن مقام معنيی اراده می فرمايند. مثلاً يک معنی از شمس، شمس های حقيقت اند که از مشرق قدم طالع می شوند و بر جميع ممکنات ابلاغ فيض می فرمايند. و اين شموس حقيقت، مظاهر کلّيّه الهی هستند در عوالم صفات و اسمای او. و همچنان که شمس ظاهری تربيت اشيای ظاهره از اثمار و اشجار و الوان و فواکه و معادن و دون ذلک از آنچه در عالم ملک مشهود است، به امر معبود حقيقی به اعانت اوست، همچنين اشجار توحيد و اثمار تفريد و اوراق تجريد و گل های علم و ايقان و رياحين حکمت و بيان از عنايت و تربيت شمس های معنوی ظاهر می شود. اين است که در حين اشراق اين شموس، عالم جديد می شود و انهار حَيَوان جاری می گردد و ابحر احسان به موج می آيد و سحاب فضل مرتفع می شود و نسمات جود بر هياکل موجودات می وزد و از حرارت اين شمس های الهی و نارهای معنوی است که حرارت محبّت الهی در ارکان عالم احداث می شود و از عنايت اين
ارواح مجرّده است که روح حيوان باقيه بر اجساد مردگان فانيه مبذول می گردد. و فی الحقيقه اين شمس ظاهری يک آيه از تجلّی آن شمس معنوی است و آن شمسی است که از برای او مقابلی و شبهی و مثلی و ندّی ملاحظه نمی شود و کلّ به وجود او قائمند و از فيض او ظاهر و به او راجع. مِنها ظَهَرتِ الاَشياءُ وَإلی خَزائِنِ اَمرها رَجَعَت وَ مِنها بُدِئتِ المُمکِناتُ وَ إلی کَنائِزِ حُکمِها عادَت
32
و اينکه در مقام بيان و ذکر، تخصيص داده می شوند به بعضی از اسماء و صفات چنانچه شنيده ايد و می شنويد، نيست مگر برای ادراک عقول ناقصه ضعيفه و إلّا لم يزل و لايزال مقدّس بوده‏اند از هر اسمی و منزّه خواهند بود از هر وصفی. جواهر اسماء را به ساحت قدسشان راهی نه و لطائف صفات را در ملکوت عزّشان سبيلی نه. فَسُبحانَ اللّه مِن اَن يُعرَفَ اَصفياؤُه بِغَيرِ ذواتِهِم اَو يُوصَفَ اَولِياؤهُ بِغَيرِ اَنفُسِهِم. فَتَعالَی عَمّا يَذکُرُ العِبادُ فی وَصفِهِم و تعالَی عَمّا هُم يَعرِفُونَ
33
و اطلاق شموس بر آن انوار مجرّده در کلمات اهل عصمت بسيار شده، از آن جمله در دعای ندبه می فرمايد: "اَينَ الشُّمُوسُ الطّالِعةُ ؟ اَينَ الاَقمار المُنيرَةُ؟ اَينَ الَانْجُمُ الزّاهِرَةُ؟" پس معلوم شد که مقصود از شمس و قمر و نجوم در مقام اوّليّه انبياء و اولياء و اصحاب ايشانند که از انوار معارفشان عوالم غيب و شهود روشن و منوّر است
34
و در
مقام ديگر مقصود از شمس و قمر و نجوم، علمای ظهور قبلند که در زمان ظهور بعد موجودند و زمام دين مردم در دست ايشان است. و اگر در ظهور شمس اُخری به ضيای او منوّر گشتند لهذا مقبول و منير و روشن خواهند بود و الّا حکم ظلمت در حقّ آنها جاری است اگر چه به ظاهر هادی باشند زيرا که جميع اين مراتب از کفر و ايمان و هدايت و ضلالت و سعادت و شقاوت و نور و ظلمت منوط به تصديق آن شمس معنوی الهی است. بر هر نفسی از علماء حکم ايمان از مبدأ عرفان در يوم تغابن و احسان جاری شد حکم علم و رضا و نور و ايمان درباره او صادق است و الّا حکم جهل و نفی و کفر و ظلم در حقّ او جريان يابد
35
و اين بر هر ذی بصری مشهود است که همچنان که نور ستاره محو می شود نزد اشراق شمس ظاهره، همين قسم شمس علم و حکمت و عرفان ظاهره نزد طلوع شمس حقيقت و آفتاب معنوی محو و تاريک می شود.
مرجع كتب وآثار بهائی - کتاب ايقان٬ صفحه ١٥-٣٠

Now its English Translation, please:
(Continued in the next post #105)
 
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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
(Continued from post #104)
Now its English Translation, please:

31
And now, concerning His words—“The sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give light, and the stars shall fall from heaven.” By the terms “sun” and “moon,” mentioned in the writings of the Prophets of God, is not meant solely the sun and moon of the visible universe. Nay rather, manifold are the meanings they have intended for these terms. In every instance they have attached to them a particular significance. Thus, by the “sun” in one sense is meant those Suns of Truth Who rise from the dayspring of ancient glory, and fill the world with a liberal effusion of grace from on high. These Suns of Truth are the universal Manifestations of God in the worlds of His attributes and names. Even as the visible sun that assisteth, as decreed by God, the true One, the Adored, in the development of all earthly things, such as the trees, the fruits, and colors thereof, the minerals of the earth, and all that may be witnessed in the world of creation, so do the divine Luminaries, by their loving care and educative influence, cause the trees of divine unity, the fruits of His oneness, the leaves of detachment, the blossoms of knowledge and certitude, and the myrtles of wisdom and utterance, to exist and be made manifest. Thus it is that through the rise of these Luminaries of God the world is made new, the waters of everlasting life stream forth, the billows of loving-kindness surge, the clouds of grace are gathered, and the breeze of bounty bloweth upon all created things. It is the warmth that these Luminaries of God generate, and the undying fires they kindle, which cause the light of the love of God to burn fiercely in the heart of humanity. It is through the abundant grace of these Symbols of Detachment that the Spirit of life everlasting is breathed into the bodies of the dead. Assuredly the visible sun is but a sign of the splendor of that Daystar of Truth, that Sun Which can never have a peer, a likeness, or rival. Through Him all things live, move, and have their being. Through His grace they are made manifest, and unto Him they all return. From Him all things have sprung, and unto the treasuries of His revelation they all have repaired. From Him all created things did proceed, and to the depositories of His law they did revert.
32
That these divine Luminaries seem to be confined at times to specific designations and attributes, as you have observed and are now observing, is due solely to the imperfect and limited comprehension of certain minds. Otherwise, they have been at all times, and will through eternity continue to be, exalted above every praising name, and sanctified from every descriptive attribute. The quintessence of every name can hope for no access unto their court of holiness, and the highest and purest of all attributes can never approach their kingdom of glory. Immeasurably high are the Prophets of God exalted above the comprehension of men, who can never know them except by their own Selves. Far be it from His glory that His chosen Ones should be magnified by any other than their own persons. Glorified are they above the praise of men; exalted are they above human understanding!
33
The term “suns” hath many a time been applied in the writings of the “immaculate Souls” unto the Prophets of God, those luminous Emblems of Detachment. Among those writings are the following words recorded in the “Prayer of Nudbih”:23 “Whither are gone the resplendent Suns? Whereunto have departed those shining Moons and sparkling Stars?” Thus, it hath become evident that the terms “sun,” “moon,” and “stars” primarily signify the Prophets of God, the saints, and their companions, those Luminaries, the light of Whose knowledge hath shed illumination upon the worlds of the visible and the invisible.
34
In another sense, by these terms is intended the divines of the former Dispensation, who live in the days of the subsequent Revelations, and who hold the reins of religion in their grasp. If these divines be illumined by the light of the latter Revelation, they will be acceptable unto God, and will shine with a light everlasting. Otherwise, they will be declared as darkened, even though to outward seeming they be leaders of men, inasmuch as belief and unbelief, guidance and error, felicity and misery, light and darkness, are all dependent upon the sanction of Him Who is the Daystar of Truth. Whosoever among the divines of every age receiveth, in the Day of Reckoning, the testimony of faith from the Source of true knowledge, he verily becometh the recipient of learning, of divine favor, and of the light of true understanding. Otherwise, he is branded as guilty of folly, denial, blasphemy, and oppression.
35
It is evident and manifest unto every discerning observer that even as the light of the star fadeth before the effulgent splendor of the sun, so doth the luminary of earthly knowledge, of wisdom, and understanding vanish into nothingness when brought face to face with the resplendent glories of the Sun of Truth, the Daystar of divine enlightenment.

Baha'i Prayers & Writings App for Android, iPhone, iPad, macOS and Windows
23. “Lamentation” attributed to the Twelfth Imám. ↩
Baha'i Prayers & Writings App for Android, iPhone, iPad, macOS and Windows

Is there any natural word/s in the text of the above verses that indicates that these verses are a Direct Verse from/by G-d addressed to Bahaullah, please?
On the same lines that I have adopted for Quran in my post #281, please . Right, please?
If one is not easy with Farsi Iqan to highlight one could highlight in the English translation, no harm, please.

Anybody, please.

Regards
 
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oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Is it so, really.

Regards
Hello....
Well, of course.

A religion which hopes to become a World Order with civil and criminal legislation, Taxation, Government, Policies, an armed police force........ if that's not Political then I don't know what 'political' is.

Now that's Politics, yet Bahai insists it has nothing to do with politics ........ that's the standard for Bahai as I see it to be, misinformation in every claim, in my opinion.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Hello....
Well, of course.

A religion which hopes to become a World Order with civil and criminal legislation, Taxation, Government, Policies, an armed police force........ if that's not Political then I don't know what 'political' is.

Now that's Politics, yet Bahai insists it has nothing to do with politics ........ that's the standard for Bahai as I see it to be, misinformation in every claim, in my opinion.
Bahaism:"misinformation in every claim"

One must have had a lot of experience with the Bahaism people and their claims; with Bahaullah, who was not even a Bahai, and his claims.

Can one mention the claims and the misinformation they give about every claim.
It will be a good information for the RF fraternity. Will one, please?

This will also benefit the Bahaism people as it will afford them a valuable opportunity to prove that the claims are not misinformation at all. Right, please?

Regards
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Happy and content?
I don't believe you!
A religion that is happy and content with strong evidence of the dangers that it hides in the folds of its soft wings won't declare that the opinion is 'like Pharisees', Tony.

One of the most dangerous aspects of Bahai is that when it is confronted with objective reasons against it, that it 'clicks' in to an imprinted mindset that the source of such debate is 'devilish', or 'like Pharsees' etc etc. I've had both chucked my way on RF. I never did store the 'devilish' post for those occasions when I would be challenged but I'm sure going to save the source of your 'Pharisee' one. You see.... we learn.

Now get hear this clear, Tony...:- If a Party announced to the people that if put in power it would reserve many of its tenets for promotion at 'such time as the executive shall decide to disclose them'..... what do you think the voters would think about that?

That's what you've said in your answers, Tony!

And Bahai IS a political party...... it's a Theocracy in waiting, very political, Tony.

Now, to save and store those quotes......

Very happy and very content, I also need no one to believe that. :) In fact the whole world could come with knives, hell bent on taking pieces from me and I would be the most happy and most content that I could be. Such is what Baha'u'llah offers the Soul.

Now I see that people love finding conspiracy theories, many now thrive on them and life is dull for them without something to stew on.

But that is just it, it is theories of their own making.

Regards Tony
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Very happy and very content, I also need no one to believe that. :) In fact the whole world could come with knives, hell bent on taking pieces from me and I would be the most happy and most content that I could be. Such is what Baha'u'llah offers the Soul.

Now I see that people love finding conspiracy theories, many now thrive on them and life is dull for them without something to stew on.

But that is just it, it is theories of their own making.

Regards Tony

You know something. Someone could the exact same words you have used in your comment above right back at you with a replacement of a word like the name of your faith or your God.

Thats because all of these are preaching, and generic. Nothing specific, with evidence based scholarship of any kind.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You know something. Someone could the exact same words you have used in your comment above right back at you with a replacement of a word like the name of your faith or your God.

Thats because all of these are preaching, and generic. Nothing specific, with evidence based scholarship of any kind.

Not an issue for me. Please go for it who ever wishes to do so :)

God alone knows our heart and if what we state is true, or false.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You know something. Someone could the exact same words you have used in your comment above right back at you with a replacement of a word like the name of your faith or your God.

Thats because all of these are preaching, and generic. Nothing specific, with evidence based scholarship of any kind.

The whole thread and Faith in God is based on the call of the Heart. Most of the people that accept the Messengers did not do it as scholars, they had hearts that saw what knowledge can be blinded to. That the Kitab-i-iqan is of God, is as plain as any other Holy Book that God has given us. No one who can not see beyond the Name of Jesus will see Muhammad. No one that can see beyond the name of Muhammad and the Quran in the acceptance of God, will see the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

One of the greatest poofs of both the Bab and Baha'u'llah in this age, is the amount of very learned Muslim Scholars that did accept them. I am not one of them and I never will be, but I live by this promise;

"...The day is approaching when God will have raised up a people who will call to remembrance Our days, who will tell the tale of Our trials, who will demand the restitution of Our rights from them that, without a tittle of evidence, have treated Us with manifest injustice. God, assuredly, dominateth the lives of them that wronged Us, and is well aware of their doings. He will, most certainly, lay hold on them for their sins. He, verily, is the fiercest of avengers...."

As you know, peace be with you always.

Regards Tony
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Not an issue for me. Please go for it who ever wishes to do so :)

God alone knows our heart and if what we state is true, or false.

Regards Tony

No way. And you misrepresented what i said. If you didnt understand that simple comment brother, its a miracle.

I didn't state anything about true or false. Either intentionally, or via a miraculous misunderstanding, you misrepresented what i said.

Peace. :)
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
One of the greatest poofs of both the Bab and Baha'u'llah in this age, is the amount of very learned Muslim Scholars that did accept them. I am not one of them and I never will be, but I live by this promise;

No. thats not proof.

If you make a thesis with their reasoning with proper references from scripture and valid reasoning then thats proof.

Some one you call very learned converting happens everywhere, from and into every theology. Thats not evidence.

I seriously find it hard to believe that someone actually brought this as some kind of proof.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Some one you call very learned converting happens everywhere, from and into every theology. Thats not evidence.

List those of the learned, in the day that any past Messenger walked this Earth, from Muhammad back to Adam, East or West who accepted the Prophet in their day.

You may get a handful in a single revelation, but not hundreds.

Not only that, they were Muslims, that in itself shows it was not a message easily proved as false. To which it still can not be proved to be false. It's growth shows the Light that does shine.

Regards Tony
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
List those of the learned in the day that any past Messenger who walked this Earth, from Muhammad back to Adam, East or West accepted the Prophet in their day.

You may get a handful in a single revelation, but not hundreds.

Not only that, they were Muslims, that in itself shows it was no mean feat brought on only by a message easily proved as false.

Regards Tony

Cheers.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Bahaism:"misinformation in every claim"

One must have had a lot of experience with the Bahaism people and their claims; with Bahaullah, who was not even a Bahai, and his claims.

Can one mention the claims and the misinformation they give about every claim.
It will be a good information for the RF fraternity. Will one, please?

This will also benefit the Bahaism people as it will afford them a valuable opportunity to prove that the claims are not misinformation at all. Right, please?

Regards
This process has been continuing for a long time, paarsurrey. The report would have to cover books! :)
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Very happy and very content, I also need no one to believe that. :) In fact the whole world could come with knives, hell bent on taking pieces from me and I would be the most happy and most content that I could be. Such is what Baha'u'llah offers the Soul.

Now I see that people love finding conspiracy theories, many now thrive on them and life is dull for them without something to stew on.

But that is just it, it is theories of their own making.

Regards Tony
No Tony.

And your metaphor of people coming with knives is very strange. All folks need to do is challenge the Baha'i claims.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No Tony.

And your metaphor of people coming with knives is very strange. All folks need to do is challenge the Baha'i claims.

Again, please feel free to offer all that is not right about a Faith you have not embraced. That is most likely a better way to teach about it, more than I could ever do. Baha'u'llah has written that it is when people do this, that the Faith does spread as a result. Thus I have become very welcoming of your comments.

What another great day heading for another humid 40 Celsius today, been having 30 nights, wet season building. Birds are singing, the first rays of dawn showing on the horizon, much fruit on the trees.

Regards Tony
 
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