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Kitab-i-Iqan was not a Direct Converse from/by G-d. Was it?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by paarsurrey, Dec 4, 2019 at 4:47 PM.

  1. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I understand that Kitab-i-Iqan/"Book of Certitude" was not a Direct Converse from/by G-d with Bahaullah. Was it, please?
    Bahaullah did not claim in Kitab-i-Iqan that it was a Direct Converse from/by G-d with Bahaullah.
    Thread open to everybody whether a Bahai* in the Forum or a Non-Bahai. Right, please?

    Regards
    ________________
    *Friends @od19g6 , @InvestigateTruth ,@adrian009 ,@Tony Bristow-Stagg ,@shunyadragon ,@danieldemol ,@Trailblazer ,@loverofhumanity , @Jim ,@arthra, @Sen McGlinn all are welcome here.Did I miss any Bahai friend in the Forum, please.

    • +One may like to read my post #272 in another thread, please:"I understand that Kitab-i-Iqan was written by Bahaullah in 1862 (not revealed by G-d) and the Covenant (in the Garden) was taken by Bahaullah (without any direct Converse/Commandment of G-d, as I understand) in 1863. Therefore, if there had been any direct Converse from G-d Bahaullah would have mentioned it in Kitab-i-Iqan. In the Pre-Covenant period, Kitab-i-Iqan is the only core book of Bahaullah. Right, please?"
     
    #1 paarsurrey, Dec 4, 2019 at 4:47 PM
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019 at 7:27 AM
  2. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Are you asking a question or making a statement?
     
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  3. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Its first part "Kitab-i-Iqan was not a Direct Converse from/by G-d", is my understanding, please, and the other part is a question, please. Right, please?

    Regards
     
  4. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Baha'is consider Baha'u'llah's wrings including the Kitab-i-Iqan as Divine Revelation just as the Quran is both Divine Revelation and the Words Spoken by Muhammad. Obviously someone who rejects either Muhammad and/or Baha'u'llah as being a Prophet/Messenger of God will have a different opinion and see human origins only.

    Baha'u'llah's works need to be considered as a whole and in light of the authoritative interpretations and elaborations provided by Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. We also need to consider the Bab's Revelation and the authority of the Universal House of Justice to resolve and clarify difficulties. So it would be a mistake to read the Kitab-i-Iqan is isolation.

    We've had this conversation before.
     
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  5. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    Thanks for the question "paarsurrey"....

    The Kitab-I-Iqan was revealed in response to questions by an uncle of Siyyid Ali Muhammad the Bab while the said uncle was on pilgrimage to Karbala near Baghdad. You can read the full text of the Iqan online at

    The Kitáb-i-Íqán | Bahá’í Reference Library

    Shoghi Effendi wrote a foreword to his translation:

    "This is one more attempt to introduce to the West, in language however inadequate, this book of unsurpassed preeminence among the writings of the Author of the Bahá’í Revelation. The hope is that it may assist others in their efforts to approach what must always be regarded as the unattainable goal—a befitting rendering of Bahá’u’lláh’s matchless utterance. "

    —Shoghi

    The opening paragraph and the rest of the Iqan is believed by Baha'is to be the revealed Word of God:

    "No man shall attain the shores of the ocean of true understanding except he be detached from all that is in heaven and on earth. Sanctify your souls, O ye peoples of the world, that haply ye may attain that station which God hath destined for you and enter thus the tabernacle which, according to the dispensations of Providence, hath been raised in the firmament of the Bayán.

    The essence of these words is this: they that tread the path of faith, they that thirst for the wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly—their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth. …"

    At the time the Iqan was revealed Baha'u'llah was in exile in Baghdad.

    Christopher Buck in his introduction to the Iqan has written:

    "The Book of Certitude may be among the first texts by Baha'u'llah explicitly designated as "revelation," since the colophon at the end of the book refers to it as having been "revealed" (al-manzul [British Museum MS., BL Or. 3116, foll. 78-127] or in some MSS al-munzal [Browne's MS.]), by the "Ba' " and the "Ha' ", as Cambridge Orientalist Edward Granville Browne first pointed out (ET, 257). In Islamic thought use of such terminology is reserved for books written by prophets, and so it represents an early claim to such a theophanic status by Baha'u'llah."

    Baha'u'llah's Book of Certitude and the Sun of Iqan (Certainty)
     
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  6. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Thanks for one's input in the thread.
    Sorry sir, I am not interested in what Bahais or Bahaullah's followers or Bahaism people believe. I am interested in Kitab-i-Iqan by Bahaullah and the main text of it, for which I have read its Farsi/Persian original, its Arabic translation and its English translation. Its Urdu translation by the Bahai Publishing Trust is also with me.
    Its main text in original Farsi starts with the words "بسم ربّنا العليّ الاعلی" and ends with the words "فَسُبحانَ رَبِّنا الاَعلی.", sentence/verse # "290", and the page # "۱۷۰" and it is accessible @< مرجع كتب وآثار بهائی - کتاب ايقان٬ صفحه ۱۶۵-۱۷۰>.
    For any meaningful comments, I request my friends (Bahai or Non-Bahai) to remain focused on the main text of Iqan and quoting from it. Right, please?

    Regards
     
    #6 paarsurrey, Dec 5, 2019 at 8:22 AM
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019 at 12:11 PM
  7. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "Baha'is consider Baha'u'llah's wrings including the Kitab-i-Iqan as Divine Revelation"

    Sir,
    One may like to read my post
    #6 which mention my viewpoint. I have nothing against Bahaullah and the Bahais , they are free to believe in whatever they like. I am doing this research for my own personal benefit; comparative study of Quran and Iqan, as a free individual. I am just an ordinary man in the street and have no claim of any scholarship or piety, please.

    Regards
     
  8. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    In other words you're doing independent investigation. You have a definite advantage, knowing more languages.
     
  9. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

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    I think we understand where you are coming from and your underlying purpose. Right? Please.
     
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  10. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    That is commendable you are doing research for personal benefit. Having read many posts from you on this theme over the last one year it looks to me as if you have already decided long ago to follow the Teaching of Mirza Ghulam Ahmadi...

    Mirza Ghulam Ahmad - Wikipedia

    ...who made claims to be both Mahdi and the Return of Christ.

    List of Mahdi claimants - Wikipedia

    List of people claimed to be Jesus - Wikipedia

    As you should be aware by now, the Bab and forerunner to Baha'u'llah claimed to be the Mahdi. Baha'u'llah claimed to be the Return of Christ.

    So we have competing claims. The options are only one is correct or neither is correct. Both claims can not be correct. So what you are really investigating are the strongest arguments to disprove the claims of both the Bab and Baha'u'llah. I have no problem with that. However I'm just demonstrating the problem with your OP. Baha'u'llah had not openly declared Himself to be the recipient of a Divine Revelations when He wrote the Kitab-i-Iqan. The book was written to prior to His declaration to His followers in the Garden of Ridvan 21 April to 2 May 1863. Therefore the main purpose of the book was not to establish His own claims but to answer questions from one of the Uncles of the Bab.

    The uncle of the Báb, Ḥájí Mírzá Siyyid Muḥammad, had been perplexed to hear that the promised one of Islam was his own nephew. When he was told that this was the same objection voiced by the uncle of the prophet of Islam, he was shaken and decided to investigate the matter. In 1861 he traveled to Karbala, Iraq, to visit his brother, Ḥájí Mírzá Ḥasan-'Alí, and then went to Baghdad to meet Bahá'u'lláh. There he posed four questions about the signs of the appearance of the promised one in writing to Bahá'u'lláh. The 200 pages (in original languages) of the Kitáb-i-Íqán were written in the course of at most two days and two nights in reply about January 15, 1861

    Kitáb-i-Íqán - Wikipedia
     
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  11. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Welcome friend @RabbiO . Please keep on one's occasional appearance in the threads started by me, one is equally welcome to make them frequent if one likes. There is no harm in it. Right, please?

    Regards
     
    #11 paarsurrey, Dec 5, 2019 at 6:13 PM
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019 at 8:08 PM
  12. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Thanks for one's input, please. Right, please?

    Regards
     
  13. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Kitab-i-Iqan was not a Direct Converse from/by G-d. Was it?

    One may like to read my post #285 in another thread that is very pertinent here also, please.

    Regards
     
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