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Featured Kitab-i-Iqan was not a Direct Converse from/by G-d. Was it?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by paarsurrey, Dec 4, 2019.

  1. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I understand that Kitab-i-Iqan/"Book of Certitude" was not a Direct Converse from/by G-d with Bahaullah. Was it, please?
    Bahaullah did not claim in Kitab-i-Iqan that it was a Direct Converse from/by G-d with Bahaullah.
    Thread open to everybody whether a Bahai* in the Forum or a Non-Bahai. Right, please?

    Regards
    ________________
    *Friends @od19g6 , @InvestigateTruth ,@adrian009 ,@Tony Bristow-Stagg ,@shunyadragon ,@danieldemol ,@Trailblazer ,@loverofhumanity , @Jim ,@arthra, @Sen McGlinn all are welcome here.Did I miss any Bahai friend in the Forum, please.

    • +One may like to read my post #272 in another thread, please:"I understand that Kitab-i-Iqan was written by Bahaullah in 1862 (not revealed by G-d) and the Covenant (in the Garden) was taken by Bahaullah (without any direct Converse/Commandment of G-d, as I understand) in 1863. Therefore, if there had been any direct Converse from G-d Bahaullah would have mentioned it in Kitab-i-Iqan. In the Pre-Covenant period, Kitab-i-Iqan is the only core book of Bahaullah. Right, please?"
     
    #1 paarsurrey, Dec 4, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
  2. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Are you asking a question or making a statement?
     
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  3. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Its first part "Kitab-i-Iqan was not a Direct Converse from/by G-d", is my understanding, please, and the other part is a question, please. Right, please?

    Regards
     
  4. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Baha'is consider Baha'u'llah's wrings including the Kitab-i-Iqan as Divine Revelation just as the Quran is both Divine Revelation and the Words Spoken by Muhammad. Obviously someone who rejects either Muhammad and/or Baha'u'llah as being a Prophet/Messenger of God will have a different opinion and see human origins only.

    Baha'u'llah's works need to be considered as a whole and in light of the authoritative interpretations and elaborations provided by Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. We also need to consider the Bab's Revelation and the authority of the Universal House of Justice to resolve and clarify difficulties. So it would be a mistake to read the Kitab-i-Iqan is isolation.

    We've had this conversation before.
     
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  5. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    Thanks for the question "paarsurrey"....

    The Kitab-I-Iqan was revealed in response to questions by an uncle of Siyyid Ali Muhammad the Bab while the said uncle was on pilgrimage to Karbala near Baghdad. You can read the full text of the Iqan online at

    The Kitáb-i-Íqán | Bahá’í Reference Library

    Shoghi Effendi wrote a foreword to his translation:

    "This is one more attempt to introduce to the West, in language however inadequate, this book of unsurpassed preeminence among the writings of the Author of the Bahá’í Revelation. The hope is that it may assist others in their efforts to approach what must always be regarded as the unattainable goal—a befitting rendering of Bahá’u’lláh’s matchless utterance. "

    —Shoghi

    The opening paragraph and the rest of the Iqan is believed by Baha'is to be the revealed Word of God:

    "No man shall attain the shores of the ocean of true understanding except he be detached from all that is in heaven and on earth. Sanctify your souls, O ye peoples of the world, that haply ye may attain that station which God hath destined for you and enter thus the tabernacle which, according to the dispensations of Providence, hath been raised in the firmament of the Bayán.

    The essence of these words is this: they that tread the path of faith, they that thirst for the wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly—their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth. …"

    At the time the Iqan was revealed Baha'u'llah was in exile in Baghdad.

    Christopher Buck in his introduction to the Iqan has written:

    "The Book of Certitude may be among the first texts by Baha'u'llah explicitly designated as "revelation," since the colophon at the end of the book refers to it as having been "revealed" (al-manzul [British Museum MS., BL Or. 3116, foll. 78-127] or in some MSS al-munzal [Browne's MS.]), by the "Ba' " and the "Ha' ", as Cambridge Orientalist Edward Granville Browne first pointed out (ET, 257). In Islamic thought use of such terminology is reserved for books written by prophets, and so it represents an early claim to such a theophanic status by Baha'u'llah."

    Baha'u'llah's Book of Certitude and the Sun of Iqan (Certainty)
     
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  6. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Thanks for one's input in the thread.
    Sorry sir, I am not interested in what Bahais or Bahaullah's followers or Bahaism people believe. I am interested in Kitab-i-Iqan by Bahaullah and the main text of it, for which I have read its Farsi/Persian original, its Arabic translation and its English translation. Its Urdu translation by the Bahai Publishing Trust is also with me.
    Its main text in original Farsi starts with the words "بسم ربّنا العليّ الاعلی" and ends with the words "فَسُبحانَ رَبِّنا الاَعلی.", sentence/verse # "290", and the page # "۱۷۰" and it is accessible @< مرجع كتب وآثار بهائی - کتاب ايقان٬ صفحه ۱۶۵-۱۷۰>.
    For any meaningful comments, I request my friends (Bahai or Non-Bahai) to remain focused on the main text of Iqan and quoting from it. Right, please?

    Regards
     
    #6 paarsurrey, Dec 5, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
  7. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "Baha'is consider Baha'u'llah's wrings including the Kitab-i-Iqan as Divine Revelation"

    Sir,
    One may like to read my post
    #6 which mention my viewpoint. I have nothing against Bahaullah and the Bahais , they are free to believe in whatever they like. I am doing this research for my own personal benefit; comparative study of Quran and Iqan, as a free individual. I am just an ordinary man in the street and have no claim of any scholarship or piety, please.

    Regards
     
  8. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    In other words you're doing independent investigation. You have a definite advantage, knowing more languages.
     
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  9. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

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    I think we understand where you are coming from and your underlying purpose. Right? Please.
     
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  10. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    That is commendable you are doing research for personal benefit. Having read many posts from you on this theme over the last one year it looks to me as if you have already decided long ago to follow the Teaching of Mirza Ghulam Ahmadi...

    Mirza Ghulam Ahmad - Wikipedia

    ...who made claims to be both Mahdi and the Return of Christ.

    List of Mahdi claimants - Wikipedia

    List of people claimed to be Jesus - Wikipedia

    As you should be aware by now, the Bab and forerunner to Baha'u'llah claimed to be the Mahdi. Baha'u'llah claimed to be the Return of Christ.

    So we have competing claims. The options are only one is correct or neither is correct. Both claims can not be correct. So what you are really investigating are the strongest arguments to disprove the claims of both the Bab and Baha'u'llah. I have no problem with that. However I'm just demonstrating the problem with your OP. Baha'u'llah had not openly declared Himself to be the recipient of a Divine Revelations when He wrote the Kitab-i-Iqan. The book was written to prior to His declaration to His followers in the Garden of Ridvan 21 April to 2 May 1863. Therefore the main purpose of the book was not to establish His own claims but to answer questions from one of the Uncles of the Bab.

    The uncle of the Báb, Ḥájí Mírzá Siyyid Muḥammad, had been perplexed to hear that the promised one of Islam was his own nephew. When he was told that this was the same objection voiced by the uncle of the prophet of Islam, he was shaken and decided to investigate the matter. In 1861 he traveled to Karbala, Iraq, to visit his brother, Ḥájí Mírzá Ḥasan-'Alí, and then went to Baghdad to meet Bahá'u'lláh. There he posed four questions about the signs of the appearance of the promised one in writing to Bahá'u'lláh. The 200 pages (in original languages) of the Kitáb-i-Íqán were written in the course of at most two days and two nights in reply about January 15, 1861

    Kitáb-i-Íqán - Wikipedia
     
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  11. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Welcome friend @RabbiO . Please keep on one's occasional appearance in the threads started by me, one is equally welcome to make them frequent if one likes. There is no harm in it. Right, please?

    Regards
     
    #11 paarsurrey, Dec 5, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
  12. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Thanks for one's input, please. Right, please?

    Regards
     
  13. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Kitab-i-Iqan was not a Direct Converse from/by G-d. Was it?

    "Every Writing by the Bab and Baha'u'llah were revealed from God"
    Post #283 of our friend @Tony Bristow-Stagg and my post #285 in another thread repeated here for very much relevance here:

    "Friend! I know that is one's belief, but now one has to prove it to help us understand one's belief with reason. Right, please?

    We take first five verses of Iqan :
    بسم ربّنا العليّ الاعلی
    1 الباب المَذکُورُ فی بَيانِ اَنَّ العباد لَن يَصِلُوا إلی شاطِئِ بَحرِ العِرفانِ إلّا بِالانقِطاعِ الصِّرفِ عَن کُلِّ مَن فِی السَّمواتِ و الاَرضِ. قَدِّسُوا اَنفُسَکُم يا اَهلَ الاَرضِ لَعَلَّ تَصِلُنَّ إلی المقامِ الَّذی قَدَّر اللّهُ لَکُم و تَدخُلُنَّ فی سُرادقٍ جَعَلهُ اللّهُ فی سَماء البَيانِ مَرفوعاً.
    2 جوهر اين باب آنکه سالکين سبيل ايمان و طالبين کؤوس ايقان بايد نفوس خود را از جميع شئونات عرضيّه پاک و مقدّس نمايند، يعنی گوش را از استماع اقوال و قلب را از ظنونات متعلّقه به سُبُحات جلال و روح را از تعلّق به اسباب ظاهره و چشم را از ملاحظه کلمات فانيه و متوکّلين علی اللّه و متوسّلين اليه سالک شوند تا آنکه قابل تجلّيات ۲ اشراقات شموس علم و عرفان الهی و محلّ ظهورات فيوضات غيب نامتناهی گردند . زيرا اگر عبد بخواهد اقوال و اعمال و افعال عباد را از عالِم و جاهل ميزان معرفت حقّ و اوليای او قرار دهد هرگز به رضوان معرفت ربّ العزّه داخل نشود و به سر منزل بقا نرسد و از جام قُرب و رضا مرزوق نگردد.
    3ناظر به ايّام قبل شويد که چقدر مردم از اعالی و ادانی هميشه منتظر ظهورات احديّه در هياکل قدسيّه بوده‏اند به قسمی که در جميع اوقات و اوان مترصّد و منتظر بودند و دعاها و تضرّع ها می نمودند که شايد نسيم رحمت الهيّه به وزيدن آيد و جمال موعود از سرادق غيب به عرصه ظهور قدم گذارد. و چون ابواب عنايت مفتوح می گرديد و غمام مکرمت مرتفع و شمس غيب از افق قدرت ظاهر می شد جميع تکذيب می نمودند و از لقاء او که عين لقاءاللّه است احتراز می جستند چنانچه تفصيل آن در جميع کتب سماويّه مذکور و مسطور است.
    4 حال قدری تأمّل نمائيد که سبب اعتراض ناس بعد از طلب و آمال ايشان چه بود. و به قسمی هم اعتراض می نمودند که زبان و بيان و تقرير و تحرير همه از ذکر آن عاجز و قاصر است. و احدی از مظاهر قدسيّه و مطالع احديّه ظاهر نشد مگر آنکه به اعتراض و انکار و احتجاج ناس مبتلا گشت.٣ چنانچه می فرمايد: "يا حَسرَةً عَلَی العِبادِ ما يأتيهِمْ مِن رَسُولٍ إلّا کَانُوا بِهِ يَستَهزِؤونَ
    ۱ و در مقام ديگر می فرمايد: "وَ هَمَّتْ کلُّ اُمّةٍ بِرَسولِهِم لِيَأخُذوهُ وَ جادَلُوا بِالباطل لِيُدحِضوا بِهِ الحَقّ." ۲
    5 و همچنين کلمات منزله که از غمام قدرت صمدانيّه و سماء عزّت ربّانيّه نازل شده زياده از حدّ احصاء و احاطه عباد است و اولوا الأفئده و صاحبان بصر را سوره هود کفايت می کند. قدری در آن سوره مبارکه تأمّل فرمائيد و به فطرت اصليّه تدبّر نمائيد تا قدری بر بدائع امور انبياء و ردّ و تکذيب کلمات نفی اطّلاع يابيد، شايد ناس را از موطن غفلت نفسانيّه به آشيان وحدت و معرفت الهيّه پرواز دهيد و از زلال حکمت لايزال و اثمار شجره علم ذی الجلال بياشاميد و مرزوق گرديد. اين است نصيب انفس مجرّده از مائده منزله قدسيّه باقيه.
    ۱
    [[​IMG] بازگشت به مرجع][ سوره يس، آيهء ٣٠ ]

    ۲
    [[​IMG] بازگشت به مرجع][ سوره غافر (مؤمن)، آيه ۵ ]
    مرجع كتب وآثار بهائی - کتاب ايقان٬ صفحه ١-١٥
    Now its English Translation, please:
    1 IN THE NAME OF OUR LORD, THE EXALTED, THE MOST HIGH.
    No man shall attain the shores of the ocean of true understanding except he be detached from all that is in heaven and on earth. Sanctify your souls, O ye peoples of the world, that haply ye may attain that station which God hath destined for you and enter thus the tabernacle which, according to the dispensations of Providence, hath been raised in the firmament of the Bayán.
    2 The essence of these words is this: they that tread the path of faith, they that thirst for the wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly—their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth. They should put their trust in God, and, holding fast unto Him, follow in His way. Then will they be made worthy of the effulgent glories of the sun of divine knowledge and understanding, and become the recipients of a grace that is infinite and unseen, inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge 4 and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets.
    3 Consider the past. How many, both high and low, have, at all times, yearningly awaited the advent of the Manifestations of God in the sanctified persons of His chosen Ones. How often have they expected His coming, how frequently have they prayed that the breeze of divine mercy might blow, and the promised Beauty step forth from behind the veil of concealment, and be made manifest to all the world. And whensoever the portals of grace did open, and the clouds of divine bounty did rain upon mankind, and the light of the Unseen did shine above the horizon of celestial might, they all denied Him, and turned away from His face—the face of God Himself. Refer ye, to verify this truth, to that which hath been recorded in every sacred Book.
    4 Ponder for a moment, and reflect upon that which hath been the cause of such denial on the 1 Again He saith: “Each nation hath plotted darkly against their Messenger to lay violent hold on Him, and disputed with vain words to invalidate the truth.”
    5 In like manner, those words that have streamed forth from the source of power and descended from the heaven of glory are innumerable and beyond the ordinary comprehension of man. To them that are possessed of true understanding and insight the Súrah of Húd surely sufficeth. Ponder a while those holy words in your heart, and, with utter detachment, strive to grasp their meaning. Examine the wondrous behaviour of the Prophets, and recall the defamations and denials uttered by 6 the children of negation and falsehood, perchance you may cause the bird of the human heart to wing its flight away from the abodes of heedlessness and doubt unto the nest of faith and certainty, and drink deep from the pure waters of ancient wisdom, and partake of the fruit of the tree of divine knowledge. Such is the share of the pure in heart of the bread that hath descended from the realms of eternity and holiness.
    Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 3-41

    Is there any natural word/s in the text of the above verses that indicates that these verses are a Direct Verse from/by G-d addressed to Bahaullah, please?
    On the same lines that I have adopted for Quran in my post #281, please . Right, please?
    If one is not easy with Farsi Iqan to highlight one could highlight in the English translation, no harm, please.
    Anybody, please"

    Regards
     
    #13 paarsurrey, Dec 6, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019
  14. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
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    Dear friend, I can not make it any clearer, just highlight all that Baha'u'llah has said and is recorded or written by Baha'u'llah himself and you have what is given by God.

    This quote may help, it is a note from a talk, but explains the concept well.

    “Now all people worship an imagination, for they have created a God in the realm of imagination and him they worship. If you ask a soul, when he is praying, who art thou worshiping? He will say, God. Which God? The God of my conception. When, in truth, what he imagines is not God. Hence, all people are worshippers of imaginations and ideals. Consequently, there is no pathway or escape for man except the Holy Manifestations, for, as we said the Essence of Divinity is pure, is holy and cannot be brought into the world of ideas. That which can be brought to ideation are the Holy and Divine Manifestations. Further than this, man has no other point for concentration. If he exceed that bound, it will be an imagination.

    Therefore, the purpose of the word "He is God" is this: That visible Majesty (the prophet) is the Promised Beauty of the Sun of Reality, the Manifestation of the mysteries of Divinity and Deity, the Revealer of the mysteries of the Merciful, the Origin of the signs of singleness. And I begin with His Blessed Name.” (‘Abdu’l-Baha, excerpts from a table talk in Akka in 1907, notes taken by Corine True; ‘Notes Taken at Acca’, booklet published by Baha’i Publishing Society, Chicago 1907

    So if we accept Muhammad as a Messenger, then we accept all that is the Quran, is of God, but we can not define God by that Word, we difine God by who Muhammad was, the way Muhammad lived His life and by the Word he recited to us.

    That is all God's Messengers

    Regards Tony
     
    #14 Tony Bristow-Stagg, Dec 6, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019
  15. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "Abdu’l-Baha"

    Isn't the excerpt one gave from the speech of Abdul Baha and not from Bahaullah and definitely not from the Converse of/from G-d to Bahaullah, please?

    Regards
     
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  16. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
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    Please paarsurrey, Abdul'baha is from Baha'u'llah, in both body and spirit. The servant of Baha, is also the Mystery of God.

    God bless all the Women that are essential to give us what is from God.

    Regards Tony
     
  17. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
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    It is recorded that Baha'u'llah received His mission in 1853 while in the 'Black Pit' but it was 1963 before Baha'u'llah made that public in the Garden of Ridvan.

    In the Bayan it is recorded:

    " In the year nine ye will attain unto all good"

    This comes from the summary of the 15th Bab of the 6th Wahid, Arabic Bayan, you may be able to read the original.

    Interestingly The Bab asked for a 19 year dispensation and it was granted 1844 to 1863.

    19 has much significance, there were 19 Letters of the Living and in the Bayan it is said;

    "God hath ordained the Creation of all things according to the "Number of All Things" (361, or 19 X 19), and accordingly the Chapters of the Religion of the Bayan have been arranged according to the Number of All Things... "

    Regards Tony
     
  18. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    The Bahais/Bahaism people! Please continue believing what all of you have been given to understand about Bab, Abdul Baha, Shoghí Effendí and UHJ . I have no objection to it. Yet, their writings/speeches add no value to us, please.Right, please?
    Kindly restrict to Iqan, please.

    Regards
     
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  19. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "where you are coming from"

    It is an open secret that I belong to Ahmadiyya peaceful Islam. Is that what one means, please?

    Regards
     
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  20. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "as if you have already decided long ago"

    That doesn't restrict me from a sincere search/research for the truth and to accept Truth where-ever I find it with reasons and argument through a peaceful dialogue. In fact that would mean that the prayer as mentioned in the OP and I repeat:

    [1:1]بِسۡمِ اللّٰہِ الرَّحۡمٰنِ الرَّحِیۡمِ﴿۱﴾
    In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
    [1:2]اَلۡحَمۡدُ لِلّٰہِ رَبِّ الۡعٰلَمِیۡنَ ۙ﴿۲﴾
    All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of all the worlds,
    [1:3]الرَّحۡمٰنِ الرَّحِیۡمِ ۙ﴿۳﴾
    The Gracious, the Merciful,
    [1:4]مٰلِکِ یَوۡمِ الدِّیۡنِ ؕ﴿۴﴾
    Master of the Day of Judgment.
    [1:5]اِیَّاکَ نَعۡبُدُ وَ اِیَّاکَ نَسۡتَعِیۡنُ ؕ﴿۵﴾
    Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help.
    [1:6]اِہۡدِ نَا الصِّرَاطَ الۡمُسۡتَقِیۡمَ ۙ﴿۶﴾
    Guide us in the right path —
    [1:7]صِرَاطَ الَّذِیۡنَ اَنۡعَمۡتَ عَلَیۡہِمۡ ۬ۙ غَیۡرِ الۡمَغۡضُوۡبِ عَلَیۡہِمۡ وَ لَا الضَّآلِّیۡنَ ٪﴿۷﴾
    The path of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings, those who have not incurred Thy displeasure, and those who have not gone astray.
    The Holy Quran - Chapter: 1: Al-Fatihah
    Right, please/

    Regards
     
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