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KingNoah2020

Discussion in 'Latter-day Saints DIR' started by SoyLeche, Jan 11, 2020.

  1. Orontes

    Orontes Master of the Horse

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    Is this intended to be a serious position?
     
  2. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    Absolutely
     
  3. Orontes

    Orontes Master of the Horse

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    Fascinating. If this is to be taken seriously, what is it in Mosiah 11 that leads to: Trump is King Noah?
     
  4. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    Post #7 covers most of it.
     
  5. Orontes

    Orontes Master of the Horse

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    I read Post 7. The points made either don't seem particularly compelling or the comparison(s) seems tortured. I can detail these if you like.

    If the larger point is: men with power, that aren't bound by any religious/ethical tie, may take license, and his could be regarding: sex, vanity or the pursuit of even more power. I think that might work as an argument, but that would be a position that applies beyond two individuals.
     
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  6. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    Feel free to. I've made my thesis and presented my evidence. I've also said that the comparison of other leaders to Noah is also appropriate. The comparison to Trump seems particularly compelling to me though.
     
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  7. Orontes

    Orontes Master of the Horse

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    OK. I will list your points and number them to make it easier to distinguish. After each I will add a reply.

    1) For behold, he did not keep the commandments of God, but he did walk after the desires of his own heart.

    King Noah was of the House of Israel and under the covenant found in the Torah for the Law of Moses. This also tied to claims on the Promised Land and a Land of Inheritance that link directly to his father's attempt to retake and hold territory in the Land of Lehi. Trump isn't an Israelite, or bound to follow the Law of Moses or any of their covenant considerations. From a Book of Mormon perspective Trump is a gentile, that means other and outside their covenant oaths. This undercuts the comparison.

    The only way to try and make a tie would be through an ethical argument: King Noah was a bad guy and Trump is a bad guy. This doesn't work as ethical precepts are not commandments of God. Therefore, the Mosiah 11 citation isn't relevant and the indictment appears emotive.


    2)And he had many wives and concubines

    King Noah was a polygamist. Trump is not. This undercuts the comparison.

    One might claim that Trump is a serial monogamist, or simply a lech, but that's not the claim against King Noah. Polygamy was allowed in ancient Jewry. However, from the time of the prophet Jacob the Nephites were forbidden to take more than one wife. This is why the indictment against King Noah has force.*


    *I think the crux of the anti-polygamy stance may not be simply about multiple sex partners, but where these others are coming from. Like with King Solomon, I think the text suggests these are non-Israelite women being brought in from surrounding peoples. This is why there is the additional charge about idolatry in the same chapter.


    3) For he put down all the priests that had been consecrated by his father, and consecrated new ones in their stead, such as were lifted up in the pride of their hearts (this one is basically about surrounding himself with a bunch of yes-men)

    Consecrating priests is setting up an ecclesiastical order. Trump has not ordained any religious leaders. This undercuts the comparison.

    You qualify this claim by stating it's about surrounding oneself with yes-men. It's not clear how this would coherently apply against Trump. The President is the Head of the Executive Branch. All Department Heads and Cabinet Positions in the Executive Branch are appointed by the President and serve at the President's sole discretion. Their role is to execute the will of the President. It's not clear how the claim about yes-men works. The only way to escape the charge is to appoint men opposed to the will of the President? Regardless, the core assertion against King Noah is ecclesiastical, so moving away from that component undercuts the comparison.



    4) Built many elegant and spacious buildings (doesn't really bother me much, but it is a parallel)

    King Noah built using monies of the kingdom. The sense is this was from increased taxes and so an abuse of power. Trump's activities are as a private citizen: using his own funds or securing loans that all remain in the private sector with the intent to get a return on the investment. They are different kinds of activities. This undercuts the comparison. If the argument is both men simply built stuff, that doesn't really have any force, as literally millions of people all over the world have done the same.


    5) He placed his heart upon his riches

    The claim is about the intents of King Noah. There is no prophetic insight into Trump, so there is an assumption at work. If we assume Trump is the same, the issue then, is it doesn't really cover Trump's political life. Trump doesn't accept any salary as president and isn't involved in his various businesses while president. So, his heart would seem to be upon something else. One might claim Trump is pursuing power, but power and wealth are not necessarily the same. One might argue, through the accruement of power, he is looking to increase his wealth, but there isn't any direct linkage at the moment, so the claim begs the question.


    6) A bunch of border stuff - although I would say Noah had better reasons for that.

    King Noah's border actions were military in focus and dealing with armed forces of other peoples. I assume the border stuff you are thinking of for Trump are his anti illegal immigration policies. They are different categories.

    7) They did boast in their own strength

    In the text, this citation appears to be the successful armies of King Noah after beating the Lamanites. If we assume this also applied to King Noah, the comparison is pride in one's military? If so, it isn't really a strong comparison as all leaders, of all nations do that same.
     
    #47 Orontes, Mar 16, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2020
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