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KingNoah2020

Discussion in 'Latter-day Saints DIR' started by SoyLeche, Jan 11, 2020.

  1. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    That's certainly a way to look at it, but I would say that puts an unnessessary limit on the scriptures.

    Having positive and negative examples to compare potential leaders to is ESPECIALLY important in a system where we choose our representatives, and even moreso in an election year where we are preparing to make that choice. Actively supporting a person who acts like the quintessential example of a poor ruler just because he has the right letter after his name is makes no sense to me.

    And I am much more concerned at the idea that one shouldn't be able to cast stones at elected leaders than I am that such actions would lead to "mob action" - mostly because I don't really see the connection between them.
     
    #21 SoyLeche, Jan 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
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  2. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    OK, I'll be blunt.

    I would oppose this comparison to Obama or to Clinton, even though my opinion of THEM is very low. I'm very conservative.

    I would be just as adamant that this is a very dumb thing to do (comparing the scriptural King Noah to them) EVEN THOUGH I DON'T LIKE THEM and think that as presidents, they were pretty bad. Well, Clinton was more personally horrific than professionally so, and Obama was more professionally bad than personally so, but the point is, I didn't like them as presidents and I would object strenuously to comparing either one of 'em to King Noah.

    I'm not going to hold back on my criticism of you doing that comparison with Trump just because I approve of his job as president...and I do, very much. Personally? I don't like him a whole lot, though he is amusing. What he IS, is effective as POTUS.

    My opinion of what you are doing is that you aren't comparing him to King Noah because you see the similarity between them. I think you are comparing them because you are liberal, don't like Trump, and like most of the liberals out there, you will attach any negative thing you can to Trump whether it's true or not...like those who call him 'anti-Semite" or "racist" or all the other politically correct insults they can come up with. You have just added one the others don't know about.

    In fact, just as I would not equate Obama, Carter, Johnson or Clinton with King Noah...even though I didn't like ANY of them,

    And the only comparison you can possibly make between King Noah and Trump is that Trump built very high hotels and called them "Trump towers?" You certainly can't call him 'lazy.' You can't accuse him of taxing everybody to death, and you absolutely can't claim that he is ruining the economy of the nation. He used HIS OWN money to build stuff, as well. Nor has HE burned anybody at the stake.

    As for wives and concubines, er....Clinton, anybody? In the OVAL OFFICE????

    And even so, I don't compare him to King Noah, though he does come somewhat closer to the mark, as President.

    No sir. The only reason you are making this comparison is because you don't like Trump, you are buying into the left wing spin about him, and want to find the nastiest insult you can, true or not, to use against him.

    You know....like your compatriots seem to like to call him "Hitler" and "Racist" and "homophobe" and "anti-semite."

    And it DOES NOT BELONG in a discussion of scripture in the Mormonism forum, any more than the same comparison to Democratic leaders, or foreign leaders, does. Political discussions belong elsewhere, in my opinion.
     
  3. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    For the record - I am not a liberal. If anything, I am a libertarian.

    That is completely irrelevant, though, as ad hominem arguments tend to be. If you don't want to discuss the argument on its own merits that is on you. I made my argument and presented my evidence.

    I stand by the comparison and think the discussion could be productive and is absolutely appropriate, as would a discussion about Clinton being a type of Noah, or of Bush being in a similar situation as Lachoneus, although I would argue that Bush was missing a Gidgiddoni and ended up making several errors that Lachoneus avoided (FTR - I was making that comparison to friends in the fall of 2001 while in college. They tended to disagree with me, and that was fine).
     
  4. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I just barely got through listening to a 51-minute podcast that both of you would probably enjoy if you were to take the time to listen to it. It's called The Politics of Mormonism.
     
  5. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    I’ve met Teryl Givens. He was the Bishop of a ward I lived in, but before I moved there he moved out - but was still in our stake. Before that, in a different town, His Brother was in my ward and I even went to a YSA party at his house.
     
  6. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I'd love like crazy to meet him. I could pick his brain for days at a time.
     
  7. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    I’ve read a couple of his books and really enjoyed them. “By the Hand of Mormon” is a must-read in my opinion.

    I listened to the podcast, and it was interesting. I don’t think they really accomplished what they set out to do, but I think I got some good insights out of it. The political aspect was definitely taken from a left-leaning perspective.

    I liked the description of Mormon theology being more about healing than saving. I think that perspective might help me out in some things I’m trying to work through.
     
  8. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    I’ve been to the book store he mentions in the interview. It’s a really nice little store with great customer service.
     
  9. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I never find his books easy to read. I guess he's just too smart for me. ;) But I always manage to get something worthwhile out of them.

    That was the best part of the podcast, in my opinion. I heard Michael Wilcox (another BYU professor) imply something similar this summer when I was on a tour he was the guest lecturer for. It struck me as so powerful and "true" that when I heard Terryl Givens say what he did in the podcast, I really latched onto it. It's just something that really resonated with me.
     
  10. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    Just was pointed to Doctrine & Covenants 98:9-10 and thought I'd share:

     
    #30 SoyLeche, Feb 13, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2020
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  11. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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  12. Watchmen

    Watchmen Well-Known Member
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    King Noah burned people at the stake. Trump never has.

    King Noah censored religious speech. Trump never has.

    King Noah taxed his people heavily. Trump’s plan gave tax breaks to most and he’s considering further cuts.

    I could go on and on.
     
  13. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    yet ;). (the king noah of Mosiah 11 hadn't yet either...as far as we know)
    yet ;)
    Our taxes are already quite a bit higher than any I've seen in the BoM
    Please do!
     
  14. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    I'm not sure King Noah even would have considered it "censoring religious speech". At least not in Mosiah 11. It was the people kicking Abinadi out. Mostly it was "fake news".
     
  15. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    Don’t forget to read the entirety of the opening post:

     
  16. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Trump hasn't done a lot of things simply because he knows that even he couldn't get away with it. I honestly believe that if he would do some of the very same things Hitler did if he thought he could.

    You surprise me, @Watchmen. I would have never guessed you to be a Trump supporter.
     
  17. Watchmen

    Watchmen Well-Known Member
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    Another Hitler comparison? Sorry, Katz, but people who compare Trump to Hitler have no credibility to me. They’ve drunk the kool-aid from the Left and suffer from TDS. There’s so much good he’s done that many won’t acknowledge just because he’s Trump.
     
  18. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    By all appearances King Noah did quite a bit of good too...
     
  19. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    If we want to keep going with Godwin: early on, Hitler did a lot of good too.
     
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  20. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Point taken. And dismissed. ;)
     
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