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KingNoah2020

Discussion in 'Latter-day Saints DIR' started by SoyLeche, Jan 11, 2020.

  1. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    I haven't posted in here for several years, and probably won't start posting regularly again, but...

    Help me out with something:

    I had an epiphany a while back that Trump is basically King Noah. I'd like to explore that a bit with you. I'm not talking about the whole Abinadi affair - our system of government probably wouldn't allow things to get that far (I hope). I'm talking about the king described in Mosiah 11.

    Obviously the comparison isn't perfect - for example, Trump is definitely not a wine bibber (although he may be addicted to Adderol...). But I think that the man described in that chapter would look a lot like Trump if he lived in 2020, and that Trump would look a lot like King Noah if he lived in 150BC.

    Thoughts?

    kingtrump.jpg
     
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  2. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    I think that you are allowing your partisan politics to interfere with your religious beliefs. Yes, I do understand that Utah LDS, though mostly conservative, aren't all that fond of Trump. Yes, I do understand that there are liberal Mormons, and liberal LDS...and I also understand that right now, most LDS are not US citizens, and really couldn't care less about Trump.

    But what I mostly understand is that the separation of church and state is IMPORTANT, and that we even encode freedom of religion (and thus the separation of church and state) in the Eleventh Article of Faith.

    I will not discuss, nor will I support a discussion, about modern political figures (that we can vote for, actually) comparing them to BoM villains OR heroes.
     
  3. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    We are encouraged to "liken the scriptures unto us", so I don't see any problem with doing so.
     
    #3 SoyLeche, Jan 11, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  4. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    And, actually - your second paragraph is completely irrelevant to the discussion anyway.
     
  5. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Which is truly a shame. I've genuinely missed your comments these past few years and hope you're doing well!

    My thoughts are that you nailed it.
     
    #5 Katzpur, Jan 11, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  6. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Since we claim to believe... "in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul." And if we seek after "anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy," we need to look for these things in someone other than in the leader of the free world. I see none of these qualities in Donald Trump. Not a single one. In my opinion, he is the absolute antithesis of what we claim to seek after. King Noah... yup.
     
  7. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    To back up the comparison:

    For behold, he did not keep the commandments of God, but he did walk after the desires of his own heart.

    And he had many wives and concubines

    For he put down all the priests that had been consecrated by his father, and consecrated new ones in their stead, such as were lifted up in the pride of their hearts (this one is basically about surrounding himself with a bunch of yes-men)

    built many elegant and spacious buildings (doesn't really bother me much, but it is a parrallel)

    he placed his heart upon his riches

    A bunch of border stuff - although I would say Noah had better reasons for that.

    they did boast in their own strength


    Those are the ones that stick out. There are also some inferences:

    It doesn't appear that he was all that unpopular with his subjects - no info about the partisan-ness of that, but until he crossed the line I don't see much indication that they were unhappy.

    By all appearances their economy was pretty good - big infrastructure projects probably kept unemployment low.
     
  8. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    The more I think about it, the less impressed I am with your take. I think you have it completely wrong.

    Your first 2 paragraphs are pretty meaningless, so we'll skip those. The attitude you show in the last paragraph is antithetical to the entire purpose of scripture. Those stories are put in there for us to learn from - not just spiritual insights, but practical ones as well. If we see ourselves entering a situation like that in the first couple chapters of Helaman or that in the beginning of 3 Nephi, we need to be able to recognize it and actively work to get out of it. And it appears to me that we are heading that direction.

    We probably don't need to worry too much about having an Amalekiah yet - I don't think that is too likely in the next couple of election cycles, but I would like to actively avoid Noahs, Amulons, Shiz's, Paanchis, and the whole situation in 3 Nephi 7 - while actively promoting Benjamins, Mosiahs, Pahorans, Zenifs, and various righteous Jaradite kings that I can't remember the names of.

    Although, in our current situation the best we can probably hope for is a pre-Ammon Lamoni or a Limhi. Maybe a Paccumeni, which wouldn't be too bad...

    Sticking our heads in the sand isn't the best way to approach picking leaders.
     
  9. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    ...and buying into the liberal propaganda spin about politics isn't the best way to interpret scripture.
     
  10. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    Then show me a better way. Why is the comparison bad?
     
    #10 SoyLeche, Jan 14, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  11. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    Because you are using political spin...what the liberals tell you about Trump...to interpret scripture. you are not being even a little bit fairminded or objective, and frankly, your comparison is CNN, MSNBC, the Washington Post and the Huffington Post personified, with no attempt to get a different POV.

    .....and I do not think it belongs in any discussion of scripture.
     
  12. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    And why is the right-wing, conservative propaganda spin any better? Please don't tell me it's not every bit as biased.
     
  13. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    Of course it is, and I would object just as strongly to that...for PRECISELY the same reasons.
     
  14. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    Actually, I sorta came here TO get a different POV. You’re the one that seems to want to avoid different ideas than you are comfortable with.
     
  15. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    Actually, I simply want to avoid equating modern, temporary, politics with scripture.

    And I would do that no matter what the political ideology might be.
     
  16. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    And I think your position in that is wrong and very short sighted.

    In your opinion, why was Mosiah 11:1-19 included in such detail if not as a set of warning signs to look for. You don’t even have to agree that Trump fits the warning to accept that as a purpose.
     
  17. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    Indeed it is a warning.

    But to decide that it is a warning about TRUMP (or Pelosi or Clinton or Obama or Bush...) is to do the absolutely wrong thing.
     
  18. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    Again - wrong and short sighted. If it’s not to be a warning about real individual's attributes it’s of little use.

    “We should look out for wicked leaders like King Noah. But we shouldn't judge this person who acts a lot like King Noah, because...", because what?
     
  19. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    Oh, and it may be a warning about Trump AND Clinton AND Obama, etc. Go ahead and make a case if you feel the need. On another forum I frequent someone made a reasonable comparison of King Noah to Bill Clinton (mostly the "normalizing immorality" aspect), which I found appropriate.
     
    #19 SoyLeche, Jan 14, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  20. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    I think it is a warning that WE should not be like King Noah, not that we should set up a duly elected political leader so that we can throw stones. That's the beginning of mob action, and frankly, that scares me.
     
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