Killing the apostate! Islamic?? Whats the source? Whats there to consider?

[firedragon]

It is very well known in the Islamic circles who are considered extremist or fanatical that there is nothing about apostasy laws in the Qur'an. Anyone who studies a little bit of Islamic Jurisprudence knows this very well. Of course there are some non-muslim apologists who propagate otherwise through some websites.

Nevertheless, I wish to discuss with those who propagate apostasy laws, be it muslim or non-muslim, what their sources are and what the justifications are based on the Islamic literature.

To reiterate, there are no killing apostates in the Qur'an. None.

 

[Shakeel]

Sahih al-Bukhari 6922 - Apostates - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)
Narrated `Ikrima: Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to `Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn `Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Apostates - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)
Narrated Abu Burda: Abu Musa said, "I came to the Prophet (ﷺ) along with two men (from the tribe) of Ash`ariyin, one on my right and the other on my left, while Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was brushing his teeth (with a Siwak), and both men asked him for some employment. The Prophet (ﷺ) said, 'O Abu Musa (O `Abdullah bin Qais!).' I said, 'By Him Who sent you with the Truth, these two men did not tell me what was in their hearts and I did not feel (realize) that they were seeking employment.' As if I were looking now at his Siwak being drawn to a corner under his lips, and he said, 'We never (or, we do not) appoint for our affairs anyone who seeks to be employed. But O Abu Musa! (or `Abdullah bin Qais!) Go to Yemen.'" The Prophet then sent Mu`adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu`adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu`adh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Muisa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Muisa requested Mu`adh to sit down but Mu`adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, 'I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.'"

Narrated `Ali: Whenever I tell you a narration from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), by Allah, I would rather fall down from the sky than ascribe a false statement to him, but if I tell you something between me and you (not a Hadith) then it was indeed a trick (i.e., I may say things just to cheat my enemy). No doubt I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, where-ever you find them, kill them, for who-ever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection."

Sunan an-Nasa'i 4062 - The Book of Fighting [The Prohibition of Bloodshed] - كتاب تحريم الدم - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)
It was narrated that Ibn 'Abbas said:
"The Messenger of Allah [SAW] said: 'Whoever changes his religion, kill him.'"

 

[firedragon]

Since the ahadith you had shared were within quotes, I will cut and paste them here just for a simple analysis.

Sahih al-Bukhari 6922 - Apostates - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)
Narrated `Ikrima: Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to `Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn `Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"
Apostates - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)
Narrated Abu Burda: Abu Musa said, "I came to the Prophet (ﷺ) along with two men (from the tribe) of Ash`ariyin, one on my right and the other on my left, while Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was brushing his teeth (with a Siwak), and both men asked him for some employment. The Prophet (ﷺ) said, 'O Abu Musa (O `Abdullah bin Qais!).' I said, 'By Him Who sent you with the Truth, these two men did not tell me what was in their hearts and I did not feel (realize) that they were seeking employment.' As if I were looking now at his Siwak being drawn to a corner under his lips, and he said, 'We never (or, we do not) appoint for our affairs anyone who seeks to be employed. But O Abu Musa! (or `Abdullah bin Qais!) Go to Yemen.'" The Prophet then sent Mu`adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu`adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu`adh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Muisa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Muisa requested Mu`adh to sit down but Mu`adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, 'I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.'"

Narrated `Ali: Whenever I tell you a narration from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), by Allah, I would rather fall down from the sky than ascribe a false statement to him, but if I tell you something between me and you (not a Hadith) then it was indeed a trick (i.e., I may say things just to cheat my enemy). No doubt I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, where-ever you find them, kill them, for who-ever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection."
Click to expand...

Sunan an-Nasa'i 4062 - The Book of Fighting [The Prohibition of Bloodshed] - كتاب تحريم الدم - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)
It was narrated that Ibn 'Abbas said:
"The Messenger of Allah [SAW] said: 'Whoever changes his religion, kill him.'"

Brother. Tell me, who is Ikrima? He is supposed to be the narrator of the first hadith about something Ali had done to Zindeeks. Could you please elaborate? Who is Ikrima?

 

[icehorse]

To reiterate, there are no killing apostates in the Qur'an

Taking that to the next logical step...

Therefore - for the last 1400 years or so - multitudes of Muslims have been in error. That doesn't lend much credence to the idea that the Quran is perfect and easy to understand.

 

[firedragon]

Taking that to the next logical step...

Therefore - for the last 1400 years or so - multitudes of Muslims have been in error. That doesn't lend much credence to the idea that the Quran is perfect and easy to understand.

I thought you said you are well read in the Quran and have studied it. So you can address the post. At least be clear in explaining who, and how they understood the Quran specifically.

 

[stvdv]

It is very well known in the Islamic circles who are considered extremist or fanatical that there is nothing about apostasy laws in the Qur'an. Anyone who studies a little bit of Islamic Jurisprudence knows this very well.

I am surprised to read this

So, just using my common sense:
1) Most Muslims live in Middle East (and Pakistan, Indonesia etc)
2) Where the most Muslims live there the most Imams live with a lot of Islamic Jurisprudence
3) Even I know, from reading Koran, that Allah is not happy if you go against His Law, and unlawfull killing human is not advised to say the least

So, from the above, we can conclude that apostates are not being killed (not in the past, nor in the present?) in Muslim countries? Because in those countries live the smartest Imaams, so they know everything about Koran and Islamic Law. I do remember having seen even on RF posts about apostates being in trouble, in countries where Islam Law rules. Were these all fake news?

Note: IF killing apostates is against Allahs Will THEN the leaders in Muslim countries are responsible if they "mark" someone as apostate, and not kill him themselves, but instead "have" him killed indirectly by a bunch of fanatical Islamists, that won't give them a free ticket to Heaven I suppose.

 

[icehorse]

I thought you said you are well read in the Quran and have studied it. So you can address the post. At least be clear in explaining who, and how they understood the Quran specifically.

As @stvdv also indicated, the evidence in the world is and has been, that many Muslims believe that apostasy is a crime, and in many cases a capital crime. So many, many Muslims think that that is a message of Islam. So, for the sake of discussion, if we take your claim as true, then it must be that there is some other durable mechanism in Islam that has allowed the "apostasy is a crime" idea to perpetuate itself across many generations.

What I would say is that even if the Quran doesn't mention the idea specifically, it certain sets the tone that such an idea would be acceptable.

 

[ecco]

Slightly off-topic but ...

Batley school protests: The issue of depicting the Prophet Muhammad.

There is no specific, or explicit ban in the Koran, the holy book of Islam, on images of Allah or the Prophet Muhammad - be they carved, painted or drawn.

However, chapter 42, verse 11 of the Koran does say: "[Allah is] the originator of the heavens and the earth... [there is] nothing like a likeness of Him."

This is taken by Muslims to mean that Allah cannot be captured in an image by human hand, such is his beauty and grandeur. To attempt such a thing is seen as an insult to Allah.
​

Nevertheless, we have seen what Muslims do when cartoons are published - a death sentence.

One could ask where does the concept of killing offenders (apostates, cartoonists) come from?

A more important question is why the concepts are still prevalent? Why have Islamic leaders, for the past 1400 years, not vociferously spoken out about it and changed the erroneous(?) perceptions?

 

[Shakeel]

Brother. Tell me, who is Ikrima? He is supposed to be the narrator of the first hadith about something Ali had done to Zindeeks. Could you please elaborate? Who is Ikrima?

You call that an analysis? Who Ikrima is is not relevant to us. What is relevant is that the hadith is Sahih.

 

[firedragon]

I am surprised to read this

So, just using my common sense:
1) Most Muslims live in Middle East (and Pakistan, Indonesia etc)
2) Where the most Muslims live there the most Imams live with a lot of Islamic Jurisprudence
3) Even I know, from reading Koran, that Allah is not happy if you go against His Law, and unlawfull killing human is not advised to say the least

So, from the above, we can conclude that apostates are not being killed (not in the past, nor in the present?) in Muslim countries? Because in those countries live the smartest Imaams, so they know everything about Koran and Islamic Law. I do remember having seen even on RF posts about apostates being in trouble, in countries where Islam Law rules. Were these all fake news?

Note: IF killing apostates is against Allahs Will THEN the leaders in Muslim countries are responsible if they "mark" someone as apostate, and not kill him themselves, but instead "have" him killed indirectly by a bunch of fanatical Islamists, that won't give them a free ticket to Heaven I suppose.

Quran.

 

[firedragon]

You call that an analysis? Who Ikrima is is not relevant to us. What is relevant is that the hadith is Sahih.

Lol. That was not an analysis. I said "for an analysis".

You said "who is Ikrima is not relevant"? Really?

So what is your standard of ahadith? Mathn or Sanad? Since you said it doesnt matter who, Im sure you dump Sanad so then is it Mathn you take as standard? Elaborate please.

 

[firedragon]

As @stvdv also indicated, the evidence in the world is and has been, that many Muslims believe that apostasy is a crime, and in many cases a capital crime. So many, many Muslims think that that is a message of Islam. So, for the sake of discussion, if we take your claim as true, then it must be that there is some other durable mechanism in Islam that has allowed the "apostasy is a crime" idea to perpetuate itself across many generations.

What I would say is that even if the Quran doesn't mention the idea specifically, it certain sets the tone that such an idea would be acceptable.

Where?

 

[epronovost]

Sunan an-Nasa'i 4062 - The Book of Fighting [The Prohibition of Bloodshed] - كتاب تحريم الدم - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)
It was narrated that Ibn 'Abbas said:
"The Messenger of Allah [SAW] said: 'Whoever changes his religion, kill him.'"

Isn't this a black and white, crystal clear instruction to kill apostates? If not what is it?

 

[icehorse]

Where?

Where what? Where in the Quran is such an "apostasy is a crime" tone set?

Or where in Islam is this idea codified?

Or where if the proof that many Muslims believe apostasy is a crime?

Or... ?

 

[firedragon]

Isn't this a black and white, crystal clear instruction to kill apostates? If not what is it?

Yes of course it is, but that's just on the surface of things. Thats not how things work, or has ever worked, even with some of the most fanatical Muslims.

1. You must though explain why you would take this above the Quran. Whats the analysis?
2. Also you must explain the Sanad or the chain of narration of the story you are quoting, and why you trust that chain so much.
3. Also you must explain the mathn or the narration itself, and why you would take it above the Furqan or what is called the yardstick of the Fikh, vis a vis, the Qur'an.

This is according to the methodology of these usul ul hadith scholars. So its not so black and white.

Do you understand?

 

[firedragon]

Where what? Where in the Quran is such an "apostasy is a crime" tone set?

Okay. So show that please.

Where in the Quran does it make a "tone" that apostasy is such a crime that it should be punishable by death?

 

[firedragon]

Slightly off-topic but ...

Batley school protests: The issue of depicting the Prophet Muhammad.

There is no specific, or explicit ban in the Koran, the holy book of Islam, on images of Allah or the Prophet Muhammad - be they carved, painted or drawn.

However, chapter 42, verse 11 of the Koran does say: "[Allah is] the originator of the heavens and the earth... [there is] nothing like a likeness of Him."

This is taken by Muslims to mean that Allah cannot be captured in an image by human hand, such is his beauty and grandeur. To attempt such a thing is seen as an insult to Allah.
​

Nevertheless, we have seen what Muslims do when cartoons are published - a death sentence.

One could ask where does the concept of killing offenders (apostates, cartoonists) come from?

A more important question is why the concepts are still prevalent? Why have Islamic leaders, for the past 1400 years, not vociferously spoken out about it and changed the erroneous(?) perceptions?

Yes. It is off topic.

 

[Shakeel]

Lol. That was not an analysis. I said "for an analysis".

You said "who is Ikrima is not relevant"? Really?

So what is your standard of ahadith? Mathn or Sanad? Since you said it doesnt matter who, Im sure you dump Sanad so then is it Mathn you take as standard? Elaborate please.

Well then I'm waiting for the analysis, in case it arrives one day.

My standard? I'm a Muslim. I have to accept all Sahih hadiths. Since you're the one against that, why not just state in which deviant group you belong to and stop pretending the sharing of your own personal intellectual analysis is necessary for Muslims to know the Islamic law?

 

[firedragon]

Well then I'm waiting for the analysis, in case it arrives one day.

As soon as you become a little humble and engage in a conversation rather than awaiting to pounce on someone.

I asked you who is Ikrima. He is the narrator of the hadith. If that is not important, and that's your answer, you are not here to engage in a conversation.

Of course seeing your other comments I do actually expect you to just come back with some rude remark just like you did above. So try and engage decently.

Who is Ikrima? Why do you trust his narration so much? This is the most basic thing to understand.

At least answer these two questions.

 

[Shakeel]

As soon as you become a little humble and engage in a conversation rather than awaiting to pounce on someone.

I asked you who is Ikrima. He is the narrator of the hadith. If that is not important, and that's your answer, you are not here to engage in a conversation.

Of course seeing your other comments I do actually expect you to just come back with some rude remark just like you did above. So try and engage decently.

Who is Ikrima? Why do you trust his narration so much? This is the most basic thing to understand.

At least answer these two questions.

If you had any actual argument to make you would already have made it. You simply can't dispute a Sahih hadith. The only reason you would is because you disbelieve in it, and that is an act of kufr.

It isn't important and you know that as well. If it was, you would already have explained how it is important and why. You only want to deflect from the fact that it is a Sahih hadith and rejecting it is an act of kufr. You aren't willing to face that so you'd rather pretend to have the qualifications of a scholar greater than the ones who decided on the authenticity of the ahadith. Did you mention something about being humble?

The most basic thing is that it is a Sahih hadith and no matter who Ikrima is and why you would disregard his words, it remains a sahih hadith and rejecting it is an act of kufr.