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Kill, Or Be Killed?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Sleeppy, Jan 25, 2015.

?
  1. Kill

  2. Be Killed

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    Under threat of torture?
    Threat of death?
    Threat towards friends or family?
    Threat towards pets?
    Threat towards ideology?

    Where are your boundaries?
     
  2. Levite

    Levite Higher and Higher

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    My hope is that I would refuse to kill, and accept death if need be. But the truth is that if my family were being threatened, I don't know what I would do. I would hope I could still refuse to do evil, even knowing the consequences. But the human heart is a frail thing. We can never truly know until the moment of crisis what we will do. I hope I never have to find out.
     
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  3. Sees

    Sees Dragonslayer

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    I choose kill because I would take at least a few with me during my rebellion. Technically that's on behalf of the dictator.
     
  4. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    I believe peace is an item guarded.
     
  5. Sees

    Sees Dragonslayer

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    If I ever open a fortune cookie business, I'm definitely offering you a position.
     
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  6. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen Veteran Member

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    Could I agree to kill to avoid death, but then go awol and defect before actually killing anyone?
     
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  7. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    I think minus the circumstances the questions are not really so simple... but for Baha'is in Iran there have already been threats of execution and torture... The threats are also affecting the family of the people involved. The threats of imprisonment are included in the threat to our Faith... Simply being a Baha'i is enough for someone to threaten you.

    See:

    Persecution of Bahá'ís - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    and

    Current situation of Baha'is in Iran | Baha'i International Community - United Nations Office

    Baha'is will not resort to Holy War as Jihad as it has been abrogated by Baha'u'llah..

    "the law of holy war hath been blotted out from the Book".

    Baha'u'llah also said:

    "it is better to be killed than kill.

    The only resource Baha'is have turned to aside from God Almighty are international bodies that have investigated the persecutions of the Baha'is and shared findings and maderecommendations.
     
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  8. Baladas

    Baladas An Págánach

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    I have no idea. I would most likely kill to protect my family...Honestly, it's hard to know having never been in a situation like this.
     
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  9. Thana

    Thana Lady

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    Idealistically, I'm a pacifist. So most likely I'd accept death, And I definitely wouldn't kill even if self defence.
    But that survival instinct is a powerful thing, So you never really know if your ideals will overcome your instincts.
     
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  10. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    I couldn't choose 'Yes' or 'No'.
    In such situations my first objective would be to stop a murderer, torturer, attacker...... which would lead to defence, and probably violent defence.

    And so Death could be the outcome of any conflict, but it would be a heated situation of defence, not a cold-blooded resolution to kill.

    If a big nasty dog attacked our little daxie hound, (weighs 12 lbs) I would definitely kick and hit the attacker with any rock to hand..,..... again, I wouldn't be seeking a kill, more of a defence.
     
  11. Laika

    Laika Well-Known Member
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    This took me a while but...

    Be killed. People are natural born cowards with an in-built desire for self-preservation but it's an illusion of choice. we're going to die anyway- so better to die free and on our own terms with a conception of "self" worth preserving.
     
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  12. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    If someone is killing you.....that would not be your terms.
    If someone is killing your family.....that would not be your terms.

    It may seem commendable to die and not having raised your hand to resist....but....
    that is what I regard as having no sense of self.....at all.

    so you really think you're not worth saving?

    Maybe I don't get your sense of 'self worth'.......
     
  13. Laika

    Laika Well-Known Member
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    I mean "be killed" whilst fighting back. I'm a pacifist at heart and hate violence, but I'm much rather have a gun to be sure. my sense of self is worth defending but chances of survival are slim. Death is a question of "when" not "if". That's where the self-worth kicks in- I choose how I leave this world. screw the odds; my freedom is worth fighting for.;)
     
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  14. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    oh!....yes of course.

    I've never had to defend my freedom.
    I have defended against bodily harm.
    There are people who will (and it happened more than once)....
    walk right up to you and slam a fist in your eye socket just to see if you drop!

    There was a sick kind of game going on.....blind siding people as they pass by.
    Several people died because of one hit events.

    Getting to where......situation awareness is a must for all.......at all times.
     
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  15. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    A lot of honesty, here..


    I'm a Pacifist.. I'm willing to die-- but self-preservation is definitely there. I'd be accepting, but fearful. I'm also concerned with defense of family, and pain.

    I don't know how much torture I can take.

    I'd rather my family and friends were pacifists, but I'd kill on their behalf, except in situations where other innocent people are the target.

    I won't ever kill for pets or ideology.
     
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  16. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    What are your boundaries and how do you know?
     
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  17. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    I have no idea.
    I have not been in any of the above situations.

    I do know that I have no problem killing in defense of myself, my family, my friends...
    Not so sure about my dog, never having been in the situation, I do not know.

    As for being an assassin...
    I would like to say I would decline.
    However, I can think of a situation or two that I would.
     
  18. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    And this was exactly my point in the other thread. Hitler, and other genocidal maniacs depended on people like you. He couldn't depend on pacifists, who would rather die than enslave themselves to him. These maniacs depended on the threat of violence to encourage violence. Islamic extremists are doing the very same thing today.
     
  19. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    Any one who says do this or you or your family dies, will most likely kill you and them anyway.
    If they put a gun in your hand and say shoot that man... You have a somewhat better chance if you attempt to shoot them instead.
     
  20. Caligula

    Caligula Member

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    I voted for killing but that's because I didn't get the question at first. I thought we are talking about self defense, in the sense that the same person that I have to kill would kill me instead.

    Now, in the new light, I would beg to differ and give, what I consider to be, an obvious response: it depends. In this extreme case I would be forced to rationalize, as much as possible, killing and my own death. Do I have lung cancer? How old am I? What would those close to me have to lose by my death and how does that compare to what I perceive to be the average? Who exactly am I to kill and how many? How would my death occur? Am I to be skinned alive and have spikes inserted in my anus? What's my mood right now (non-rational but with major influence)? How would my sacrifice contribute to the mentality of the rest? Will it be futile or worthy? What are my chances of escape without any of the mentioned consequences? Wow, there are so many questions and things I would have to consider! There will be an amalgam of decisions that could change from any second, as soon as another question pops into my head. The thing I do know now is that instinctively I will be inclined to be biased towards my self preservation and have only the illusion that I rationalize. But that ain't nothing to be ashamed of as that primary, survival instinct, is the one from which any moral standard derived. I do believe that even self-sacrifice is a complex result of our survival instinct, as weird as that may sound; ...but I'm not going into that right now.

    Whatever the decision, it would be a fragile one. The same person that decided to kill today may one hour later change his mind and decide differently. That doesn't happen too often only because people refuse to intellectually torment themselves and go along with the decision they already took, reconsidering to analyze only if major new info becomes available. But, in theory, in extreme circumstances and major moral dilemmas, the same data could suffice to take a different decision. That is easy to explain in the context of immense pressure. It wouldn't surprise me if there will be people that will flip a coin to make such a decision, only not to torment themselves any longer.

    Put people in the same extreme situation one day later and you may be surprised. And when I say to put them in the same situation I don't mean it theoretically. We may all agree NOW, while comfortably typing, that it would be morally good to accept your own death rather than unjustifiable kill but that means nothing at all.

    If allowed, I would advise you not to judge those that say they would kill instead of being killed because the question wasn't "what do you think is morally superior?" but "what do you think you would do in such an extreme circumstance?". In the scenario you just offered morality is obliterated and instincts (which include both self preservation and self sacrifice) kick into action.
     
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