Karma

[sayak83]

Humans justifying their actions by lies, by agendas of power, by wickedness - will never stop.

If you have an entity that can create the earth with its varied life, can destroy said earth - one can only hope that this entity acts in non-wicked fashion with his creation. If it doesn't there is bloody nothing to do about it, except to try to avoid making that entity mad enough to focus on yourself.

Hindus and Buddhists don't have to worry about such things. The laws of Karma ensure that entities with violence and anger in their heart against other beings rapidly lose their power and descend into relative powerlessness. Only beings who are selflessly loving, free of all anger and expectations and have no intention to impose their wills on other beings, gain the greatest power. If you have read Lord of the Rings, Tom Bombadil is the personified aspect of Brahman (i.e. God) in every age.
So we don't have to worry about what God wants from me or whether he is mad... since He does not want anything and does not get mad.

For Buddhists.. the beings of relevance will be the Bodhisattva-s. Same idea in general.

 

[Grandliseur]

The laws of Karma ensure that entities with violence and anger in their heart against other beings rapidly lose their power and descend into relative powerlessness.

I know you have demons in your dogma, but who is responsible for creating all things? Is that being not beyond the control of this karma you seem to indicate controls all things in a balancing manner?

 

[sayak83]

I know you have demons in your dogma, but who is responsible for creating all things? Is that being not beyond the control of this karma you seem to indicate controls all things in a balancing manner?

All actions of any and all entities that act out of motives and desires and attachment to goals are in control of the laws of karma, thus creating a fundamental self-regulating limit on powers and consequences such beings can achieve. In theistic Hinduism God (and other enlightened beings) are free of these laws since they always act selflessly, without expectations from others or for goals and desires. In that sense they are beyond the reach of the laws of Karma. But since they have expunged all desires, motivations, feelings of "me, mine ownership" and negative emotions from their character... it necessarily follows that one does not have worry about those things when interacting with God and other such enlightened beings. Theistic Hinduism believes such is God and he/she created all this out of a pure creative impulse stemming from joy and bliss... like "art for arts sake".

And no.. laws of Karma cannot be altered. It's an inalienable feature of the ultimate reality i.e. Brahman which makes existence of all beings including Being itself possible.

 

[Grandliseur]

All actions of any and all entities that act out of motives and desires and attachment to goals are in control of the laws of karma, thus creating a fundamental self-regulating limit on powers and consequences such beings can achieve. In theistic Hinduism God (and other enlightened beings) are free of these laws since they always act selflessly, without expectations from others or for goals and desires. In that sense they are beyond the reach of the laws of Karma. But since they have expunged all desires, motivations, feelings of "me, mine ownership" and negative emotions from their character... it necessarily follows that one does not have worry about those things when interacting with God and other such enlightened beings. Theistic Hinduism believes such is God and he/she created all this out of a pure creative impulse stemming from joy and bliss... like "art for arts sake".

Thank you. You seem to be well informed in this belief system. If you have questions about the Bible, I am well informed in that direction. However, you will find that many church teachings are not part of the Biblical teachings.

 

[sayak83]

Thank you. You seem to be well informed in this belief system. If you have questions about the Bible, I am well informed in that direction. However, you will find that many church teachings are not part of the Biblical teachings.

OK. Not the topic of this thread. But will keep it in mind.

 

[sayak83]

Thank you. You seem to be well informed in this belief system. If you have questions about the Bible, I am well informed in that direction. However, you will find that many church teachings are not part of the Biblical teachings.

If you are interested, maybe we can revive this old thread where I compared Buddha and Jesus.
Comparing the words of Buddha vs Christ:- Core Teachings

 

[Stormcry]

Cause and effect. It's no more difficult to understand than that.

It's more than that. Cause is the effect as well, and effect is the cause as well. A lot of westerners don't get it.

 

[Stormcry]

Does karma adequately "explain" why some people are luckier than others?

Every single living being in this world has millions of bad Karma and millions of good Karma. Because Never was there a time when we did not exist, nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.

It all depends upon how Karma is executed in each phase of eternal life without beginning.

 

[Grandliseur]

If you are interested, maybe we can revive this old thread where I compared Buddha and Jesus.
Comparing the words of Buddha vs Christ:- Core Teachings

If I miss it, perhaps you can ping me.

 

[Lester Tryon]

It seems to me, regardless of an underlying theme system, or guiding hand, that our actions have consequences. The full extent of which are not neccessarily seen, either by the actor or even with any correllation by the larger whole, as sometimes the result is subtle. As an example here, let us suppose that a person does a good deed, random act of kindness, for someone who is having a bad day. The immediate observable effect is usually a "Thank you", and no more thought is given to it. Yet, this single act may have altered the negative mindset of the recipient, if only minutely, enough that in another encounter later, what might have become a violent altercation, instead is just minor spat. Somewhat like the straw that broke the camel's back in reverse. The single good deed, perhaps removed a straw. Or, perhaps the person paid it forward and brightened someone else's day.
The net result is reflected in the fact that good acts, performed by individuals, add to the sum total of good affecting society as a whole. Unfortunately, the inverse is true also. So, if you are a believer or not, is irrelevant, a person's actions are like ripples in the pond and, in the end affect everyone. Lucky sperm club included.

 

[Ponder This]

If you do, how would you explain it in simple terms?

It is impossible to be more or less important than every thing else.
All perceptions of advantage or disadvantage are illusory.

 

[YmirGF]

Gee, 3 pages and not a single compelling argument to be found. Fascinating.

 

[Lester Tryon]

It is impossible to be more or less important than every thing else.
All perceptions of advantage or disadvantage are illusory.

 

[Lester Tryon]

Than every thing else? I'm not the one who would, but some true believers would argue that God is.
However, considering the predilection toward self preservation, one could argue that they are more important than the stone in the field. The stone, if a stone had a conciousness, might but that's a bit far fetched for me.
If everything is an illusion, then nothing has any importance, nor meaning, nor purpose, so why even bother. Perhaps, if there are a given set of parameters within to guage it, that arguement might have a semblance of something that could be argued.
To the illusion of water on the highway ahead in the desert, the heat rising, definitely has more importance than the rock lying on the side of the road. As does, the viewer of the illusion, as how there be illusion without experience?

 

[Rinchen]

Do you believe in karma?

If you do, how would you explain it in simple terms?

Is it different from the Golden Rule?

Does it work even if you refuse to belive in it?

Enjoy!

Karma is how the mind creates the world, it is intention. All worlds exist dependently upon the karma of beings.

It is very different from the golden rule (i think that rule is bs). The golden rule is in error because others dont necessarily want to be treated the way I do. The golden rule is centered around oneself being the highest reference point on how to treat others. Its flawed in terms of what its trying to achieve.

Does it work if you refuse to believe in it? Yes. However, if you see through it, it doesnt work anymore.

This, of course, is my basic understanding.

 

[Ponder This]

Than every thing else? I'm not the one who would, but some true believers would argue that God is.
However, considering the predilection toward self preservation, one could argue that they are more important than the stone in the field. The stone, if a stone had a conciousness, might but that's a bit far fetched for me.
If everything is an illusion, then nothing has any importance, nor meaning, nor purpose, so why even bother. Perhaps, if there are a given set of parameters within to guage it, that arguement might have a semblance of something that could be argued.
To the illusion of water on the highway ahead in the desert, the heat rising, definitely has more importance than the rock lying on the side of the road. As does, the viewer of the illusion, as how there be illusion without experience?

Yes, than everything else. It is the notion of separation that leads to the perception of gain and loss.
When you die, you lose those things of the world that you have acquired for yourself. Thus, our perceptions of gain are ... illusory. What meaning was there in acquiring those things? The greater the perceived gain, the greater the perceived loss. Have you gained a stone? Then you shall lose a stone. Let's call it Karma.

 

[Lester Tryon]

Yes, than everything else. It is the notion of separation that leads to the perception of gain and loss.
When you die, you lose those things of the world that you have acquired for yourself. Thus, our perceptions of gain are ... illusory. What meaning was there in acquiring those things? The greater the perceived gain, the greater the perceived loss. Have you gained a stone? Then you shall lose a stone. Let's call it Karma.

I see, then the entire concept, as you are stating it, is based on what may or may not occur after a person dies? My statement was regarding, how it relates to the reality, we currently occupy.

 

[Valjean]

I see, then the entire concept, as you are stating it, is based on what may or may not occur after a person dies? My statement was regarding, how it relates to the reality, we currently occupy.

The here and now was not the original context of the term.

 

[Ponder This]

I see, then the entire concept, as you are stating it, is based on what may or may not occur after a person dies? My statement was regarding, how it relates to the reality, we currently occupy.

No. I referred to everything up to and including death (although karma is not limited to what happens in a single lifetime).
Karma is about the future: the results of deeds. But to try and separate the now from the future is problematic. "the reality we currently occupy" is not sufficient to understand karma. Karma relates to the whole, the entirety.

 

[Lester Tryon]

No. I referred to everything up to and including death (although karma is not limited to what happens in a single lifetime).
Karma is about the future: the results of deeds. But to try and separate the now from the future is problematic. "the reality we currently occupy" is not sufficient to understand karma. Karma relates to the whole, the entirety.

Well then, I guess as a random, intellectual exercise in futility, one that doesn't make sense If there is no start, no end, (i.e., no boundaries) then how could there be a whole? The entirety of the concept relies on one being willing to suspend belief in all tangible evidence of the world.
I would be willing to accept the concept that no one is necessarily more important/has more meaning intrinsically than anyone else, at least as a whole. In some given circumstances, someone's importance could outweigh some other's (e.g. the surgeon in the operating room).
However, it comes back to perspective. If there is no beginning, no end, no consequence or importance to anything, then there is also no reason to do anything other than fulfill biological imperatives. It also suggests no reason not to act on impulse, to simply go after whatever one desires, regardless of how it may affect others. Since there is no end game, no goal, no actual purpose, it could not be else-wise.
You said, "Karma is about the future: the results of deeds." This statement implies cause and effect. Yet if it is both,(cause and effect) then it is neither as well. If it is all, and it is nothing, then the point, is pointless. (I'm truly not meaning to come across as glib here.)
I'm not saying that how you are expressing what the idea of Karma represents is wrong (as in definition of the word, I'm sure you are far more informed than I am), what I'm saying is that, if it is how you are stating it (we have no importance, we have no beginning or end which implies infinity/eternity to alter choices, which would be hard to do as we take "nothing" (broad meaning word) including experience, learning, etc.) with us into some possible next life, then individual lives have no value, the "current reality", the one as experienced by the body and brain we inhabit while we have this conversation, is pointless. And since, even the "God" referenced in an earlier post in the thread, other than having "created" everything on a whim, has no interest in it either, why bother?
The basic idea, which as a westerner, and I know is not a correct or at least complete analogy, is that Karma is like, "what goes around, comes around". I think that people having heard that, is what prompted the comparison to the "Golden Rule". Those two ideas, at least have some bearing on the "here and now". If Karma, does not, what does it have to do with?
This has been incredibly long winded and I apologize to everyone for my inane prattling while trying to come to grips with this.