Karma vs. intervention by the god/desses

[Jainarayan]

I think two things are pretty much a given for Hindus:

1. Belief in the law(s) of karma.
2. We pray to the gods and goddesses, usually for some benefits and/or blessings.

In thinking about this, how do we reconcile the (in my understanding) immutable laws of karma with the god/desses intervening and giving blessings? For example, if you're Vaishnava you know that Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita that if we remember him at the time we leave our bodies (probably a quite difficult thing to do with a 55,000 lb tractor-trailer barreling down the highway with my name on its front-end ), we will go to him without a doubt. I know Shaivas and Shaktas have that all figured out by not believing that. Smartie-pantses!

Let's face it, we all pray.

• I prayed to Lord Hanuman, following some internet advice (my first mistake, which I'll go into in a moment) last summer that I keep my job. Well, against all odds, I kept my job. Unfortunately, I really should not have asked for that... be careful what you wish (pray) for, you may get it.
• I'm currently in a promise to Maa Lakshmi to chant her gayatri mantra 108 times for 40 days, but I won't say why.
• I would do the same with the Mahamrtyunjaya Mantra for someone who is ill.
• A lady at temple made a promise to do 51 circumambulations (don't ask me why 51) so her son would pass his exams.
• We pray to Lord Ganesha when we set out on the road (I do... I live in NJ ).

The list of things we pray for goes on. Now, did the gods all intervene in these things, or was it my karma to keep this job; or for the lady's son to pass his exams (he was entering med school), and the gods had nothing to do with it? If the gods had nothing to do with it, that raises a disturbing question... why pray?

Personally I'd rather err on the side of caution and pray. What think you, what say you?

 

[Fireside_Hindu]

I think our prayers to the Gods/Goddesses serve as a way to re-frame how we are experiencing any given thing we are going through. Prayer and meditation force us to pause, allowing us to adjust our emotions, think more clearly and perhaps reduce our suffering or increase our joy as our perspective changes.

It's hard for me sometimes not to think that Lakshmi maa has intervened in some way when I look at a line of coincidences going back several years, but maybe rather than intervention, praying to her allowed me to take the time to see the positive in each transition or difficult circumstance, so that things worked out well because I challenged my perspective. What has and will happen will still happen, but how we experience them can be drastically different based on how we train our minds to perceive those events.

 

[SomeRandom]

It's very easy to frame our good fortune as God/s intervening on our behalf because of prayer/devotion. It's just as easy to blame misfortune on our bad karma.
But when you really get down to it, it's all mundane little things. Little miracles if you will. Is it all down to karma, down to fate. good/bad luck or do we make our own way? Does God/s micromanage our lives in such a way, or do we automatically attribute this to God/s because it's just easier?

I struggle to reconcile this as well. Because there's a part of my brain that just says, this is all illogical. Because more often than not, this is all first world problems. Well, speaking as a spoilt brat Westerner anyway.
What do we pray for? I mean really?
I pray that I don't do something stupid that would cost me my job.
In this economy? It's a goddamned miracle I have one in the first place, really I should be thankful I have an income.
Have enough money to pay the bills this week? Again, at least I have a paycheck. Perhaps instead I should ask my boss for more shifts not God to shower me with extra money just coz.
I pray for conveniences, for extra material wealth, I haven't had to pray for god to save me from hunger, from the cold, from predators, from an early death etc.

Maybe it's just one of those things you have to decide for yourself. I dunno. But maybe we should instead look at exactly what we are praying for (and receiving) and try to put it into perspective.
Are we praying to not die from the elements or for God to save us from someone abusing us?
Perhaps we should be always grateful for how well off we are and just accept little drawbacks and winnings as all good karma, for we are blessed to be living so well off that we don't have to worry about surviving till tomorrow.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

"Jainarayan,"

Namaste,

I always go back to the Gita to get more incites into things like Karma and Kripa (grace), to me Krishna is not really talking about his Krishna Form" (Rupam) when he advises to think of him, he establishes who he is and who we all are in the first 3 or 4 chapters of the Gita and establishes what Karma is in the next few chapters, and it is also left up to us the Arjun's of this Krukshetra to decide if we are going to take Krishna's advise or not, so in the great Yogi's words "Perform Karm, thinking of Me (The Atman in all), giving up the fruits of your Karma as that is out of our grasp".

As for the Kripa, the only thing i get from the Gita is that Shruddha in the Atman/Brahman/Guru/Devi ect purifies our Karma in order for us to have the best results, but even if we don't get what we pray for the advise is still to perform your Karma as even the maintenance (breathing, eating, sleeping, exercise ect) of this body is Karma.

So in short if a person is Dharmic and has Shruddha, his/her Karma will reflect the persons inner being, and the Deva/Devi will keep guiding one to the path of Dharmah.

 

[Jainarayan]

I think our prayers to the Gods/Goddesses serve as a way to re-frame how we are experiencing any given thing we are going through. Prayer and meditation force us to pause, allowing us to adjust our emotions, think more clearly and perhaps reduce our suffering or increase our joy as our perspective changes.

It's hard for me sometimes not to think that Lakshmi maa has intervened in some way when I look at a line of coincidences going back several years, but maybe rather than intervention, praying to her allowed me to take the time to see the positive in each transition or difficult circumstance, so that things worked out well because I challenged my perspective. What has and will happen will still happen, but how we experience them can be drastically different based on how we train our minds to perceive those events.

I'm also finding it to be the case that when praying, meditating on a god/dess or chanting a mantra or slokas (I'm not a good conversationalist "pray-er" but I think chanting sets up an energy conduit) I'm becoming more aware of why I'm doing it and what I really should be asking for. Hard to explain, but sort of like a positive feedback loop. So I think I know what you mean.

For example. one of my causes is abused and abandoned animals. I can't watch ASPCA tv ads without crying (a 220 lb bearded bear who's crying is not something you want to see ). So why not chant rounds of the Pashupati (Shiva, Lord and Protector of Animals) gayatri, asking him for wisdom and enlightenment to help animals. If I do that maybe it will help me move towards vegetarian, lest I be a hypocrite.

 

[Jainarayan]

It's very easy to frame our good fortune as God/s intervening on our behalf because of prayer/devotion. It's just as easy to blame misfortune on our bad karma.
But when you really get down to it, it's all mundane little things. Little miracles if you will. Is it all down to karma, down to fate. good/bad luck or do we make our own way? Does God/s micromanage our lives in such a way, or do we automatically attribute this to God/s because it's just easier?

I struggle to reconcile this as well. Because there's a part of my brain that just says, this is all illogical. Because more often than not, this is all first world problems. Well, speaking as a spoilt brat Westerner anyway.
What do we pray for? I mean really?
I pray that I don't do something stupid that would cost me my job.
In this economy? It's a goddamned miracle I have one in the first place, really I should be thankful I have an income.
Have enough money to pay the bills this week? Again, at least I have a paycheck. Perhaps instead I should ask my boss for more shifts not God to shower me with extra money just coz.
I pray for conveniences, for extra material wealth, I haven't had to pray for god to save me from hunger, from the cold, from predators, from an early death etc.

Maybe it's just one of those things you have to decide for yourself. I dunno. But maybe we should instead look at exactly what we are praying for (and receiving) and try to put it into perspective.
Are we praying to not die from the elements or for God to save us from someone abusing us?
Perhaps we should be always grateful for how well off we are and just accept little drawbacks and winnings as all good karma, for we are blessed to be living so well off that we don't have to worry about surviving till tomorrow.

I admit I had a hard time getting away from the micro-managing deities paradigm. Now I pretty much only joke about it.

I ask Lord Ganesha to remove the obstacle known as my own stupidity. I like to think I'm a pretty good driver (never had a moving violation in all my 42 years driving, last accident was in 1994 and not my fault) but I've had some close calls due to being stupid and arrogant.

So I look at his little statue on my dashboard and say "ok ok, I know that was stupid, I won't do it again, thank you for the wake up call" because by rights I should have been toast.

 

[Jainarayan]

Namaste,

...

As for the Kripa, the only thing i get from the Gita is that Shruddha in the Atman/Brahman/Guru/Devi ect purifies our Karma in order for us to have the best results, but even if we don't get what we pray for the advise is still to perform your Karma as even the maintenance (breathing, eating, sleeping, exercise ect) of this body is Karma.

So in short if a person is Dharmic and has Shruddha, his/her Karma will reflect the persons inner being, and the Deva/Devi will keep guiding one to the path of Dharmah.

I think that's what I was trying to figure out and reconcile, but I think it does work. Maybe we can't change our prarabdha karma but with grace we can create better kriyamana karma.

 

[Jainarayan]

And now at the risk of being irreverent, maybe a few prayers to Vayu and Indra might be in order, to make this nor'easter go away. The NJ shore is getting pounded.

 

[Spirit_Warrior]

I don't think prayer can be reconciled with law of karma, because the doctrine of karma(karma vada) is a sort of God helps them, who helps themselves philosophy. You need put in the effort to obtain whatever fruit of labour you want to obtain and this has to be achieved though self-effort and knowledge about the object, the means of obtaining the object etc If that object is material, there is a whole shastra, arthshastra on how to obtain that object. On the other hand, prayer is about not putting in the right self-effort, inquiring about knowledge about the object and the means obtaining the object, but rather asking some God to intervene on your behalf.

If we consider one of the examples you gave of praying for your son to pass their exam, the son will only pass the exam if they have studied well and can recollect it in the the exam. If they haven't studied well and reflect it in the exam, then how can any amount of prayer help them?

When we say "God listened to my prayer" it suffers a bit from the file drawer problem. All the prayers in the past that were unanswered get filed away, and the only prayer that did bear fruit you remember and consider "answered" Well, by the law of averages, at least one of my prayers is going to be answered. If we are realistic about this, most of this world prays, but that does not stop bad things from happening earthquakes, floods, crimes, bereavement, divorces, losing jobs etc. The one who believes in power of prayer will answer "You did not pray hard enough" which is similar to the Mimamsa answer on why a Vedic ritual did not bear fruit, "You did not do the ritual properly" which is basically a cop out.

Prayers are there there more as psychological means to give us mental comfort, but they are not a substitute for self-effort.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Now, did the gods all intervene in these things, or was it my karma to keep this job; or for the lady's son to pass his exams (he was entering med school), and the gods had nothing to do with it? If the gods had nothing to do with it, that raises a disturbing question... why pray?

Personally I'd rather err on the side of caution and pray. What think you, what say you?

Good. Why take chances? Gods work behind the scene.

And now at the risk of being irreverent, maybe a few prayers to Vayu and Indra might be in order, to make this nor'easter go away. The NJ shore is getting pounded.

Yeah, we too have a strong winter and so had China/Europe. Heard of snow in Sahara and saw a beduin trudging through snow (and not sand) in news! If we all pray, in US, in Sahara, in India, Europe and China, Vayu and Indra will certainly relent. Prayers here: Rig Veda Index
Putting a smiley might not be appropriate since it is serious business.

 

[Terese]

I actually don't pray much. I'm just glad that i get to talk about Narayana Although, i do sing bhajans every once in a while... Govinda mero hai Gopala mero hai...

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

I think that's what I was trying to figure out and reconcile, but I think it does work. Maybe we can't change our prarabdha karma but with grace we can create better kriyamana karma.

Namaste,

Yes that is my take on it as well, Sanchit Karma is said to be destroyed by Brahm Gyana or knowledge of the Great Expanse, We have to eat the Phalla of the Parabhadha Karma in this life, We have no direct knowledge or Agami Karma until after we have made a choice or do a action, and yes it is only the Vartaman Karma that we have some control over, even all these are effected by either Ikccha (internal) or Anikccha (external) forces.

I think the Deva/Devi will guide us in the Anikccha (out of our control) Vartaman Karma which is more important.

 

[User14]

For example, if you're Vaishnava you know that Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita that if we remember him at the time we leave our bodies (probably a quite difficult thing to do with a 55,000 lb tractor-trailer barreling down the highway with my name on its front-end ), we will go to him without a doubt. I know Shaivas and Shaktas have that all figured out by not believing that. Smartie-pantses!

Hmm, I don't know if it's in Shaivism, but I have read some Shakta devotional songs that express a similar belief about remembering the Mother's name at the moment of death.

Maybe in some mysterious way, what looks like intervention by a deity does not violate the laws of karma and/or is part of the karmic process.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The name of the deity will get you some peace in the lessening power of thinking, save you from unpleasant thought that may arise at that time. Thinking is the last thing that goes before lights-out.

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

I think that's what I was trying to figure out and reconcile, but I think it does work. Maybe we can't change our prarabdha karma but with grace we can create better kriyamana karma.

Yes, Jai, well put. I used to tell the kids to make good choices now because they would be living with the results of them long into the "future."

 

[Vinayaka]

The list of things we pray for goes on. Now, did the gods all intervene in these things, or was it my karma to keep this job; or for the lady's son to pass his exams (he was entering med school), and the gods had nothing to do with it? If the gods had nothing to do with it, that raises a disturbing question... why pray?

Personally I'd rather err on the side of caution and pray. What think you, what say you?

Jai, I had to dwell on this one for awhile, before clearing up my own thoughts. I discovered that the word 'intervention' might be troublesome. I don't personally believe the Gods intervene, unless asked, or unless a personal relationship with devas has been established. To me, 'help' or 'assist' is better than 'intervene'. Intervene seems to me that they're stepping in, regardless of situation, as in a peson might interrupt a conversation.

Do I believe Gods help? Absolutely. Do I believe in karma? Absolutely. What happens with God's help (and our own maturity - not personal maturity, but soul maturity) is that the impact of said karma is reduced, or altered so that we can resolve it easier. For example, we might read in a newspaper or see in a movie something that was more or less our karma, have a huge reaction, or really feel for the character. So we get the karmic experience - but less some of the pain. This is one of God's boons to those who love and serve Him.

 

[Jainarayan]

I don't personally believe the Gods intervene, unless asked, or unless a personal relationship with devas has been established. To me, 'help' or 'assist' is better than 'intervene'. Intervene seems to me that they're stepping in, regardless of situation, as in a peson might interrupt a conversation.

Good points, I believe you're right. 'Intervene' denotes looking-over-our-shoulders. I think it's more likely they leave us alone until we call on them. Or for some reason if we get into serious trouble they know it and may come running. But now I think that would have to be extraordinarily serious, since I think that would indeed be overriding our karma.

 

[Vinayaka]

I think it's more likely they leave us alone until we call on them.

This is the teaching in my sampradaya.