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Featured Kanye West's "Christian" - "Sunday Service" - Jesus is King Album, Chick Fil-A & the Real Lord's Day

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by coconut theology, Jan 28, 2020.

  1. Earthtank

    Earthtank Active Member

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    "Kanye West's "Christian" - "Sunday Service" - Jesus is King Album, Chick Fil-A & the Real Lord's Day"

    This is a sentence/headline I never, in a million years, though i would read.
     
  2. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    As the saying goes, "Ya' ain't seen nuthin' yet." It is merely the beginning of crazy.
     
  3. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    What was? How did you determine it was? What was your standard for measurement, and what was the standard that told you it was the standard?
     
  4. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    The level of intellectualism is quite in the dust these days, and so no wonder when they read "the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God", "His holy day", they think, 'Hmmm, he must mean the first day ...'
     
  5. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein I'm not deaf, I'm just a real bad listener
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    That's nice.
     
  6. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    Do you acknowledge what the historical citation identifies, namely that the "Sabbath of the Old Testament" existed before the 'pagans' "supplant[ed]" it for "Sunday", and in "honour of the sun"? The 4th commandment encompasses all of creation, including the sun, and it shows who created all the things.
     
  7. Guitar's Cry

    Guitar's Cry The "I" in Reality

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    Gods bless them pagans!
     
  8. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    That is a contradiction in terms, for "bless" is defined as:

    Act 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.​

    Just as it is written:

    Act 14:15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:

    Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.​

    Act 14:16 Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.
    Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
    Act_17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.​
     
  9. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    Do notice all the distraction to the OP. Satan is not happy at being exposed.
     
  10. Guitar's Cry

    Guitar's Cry The "I" in Reality

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    Yes! And a blessed contradiction it is! For as written by Walt Whitman:

    "Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes."

    And by Saki in his "Music on the Hill":

    “The worship of Pan never has died out...Other newer gods have drawn aside his votaries from time to time, but he is the Nature-God to whom all must come back at last. He has been called the Father of all the Gods, but most of his children have been stillborn.”

    So who else is best to blessed by?
     
  11. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    Let's consider the so-called gatherings on the 'first [day] of the week':

    John 20:19

    Joh 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.​

    In scripture, though, there are several "evenings". The "evening" of about 3 PM to sunset, known as the "going down of the sun":

    Exo 29:39 The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even:

    Mat_16:2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.​

    Then there is another and final "evening" which brings the next day as in Genesis 1, this "evening" is known as the beginning of the "day", see Genesis 1, etc.

    Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.​

    Therefore, when we are reading Mark, Luke and John, we need to take that into consideration. Look again:

    Luk_24:29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.

    Luk 24:30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.​

    We can see that they (disciples and Jesus) were still walking to Emmaus while it was yet "day" (light out, with the sun still out), and yet it began to grow late in the day, and the sun was beginning to go down. It was getting near supper time. It was not yet night (sun down). Yet, while they eat, Jesus makes known who He is, and vanishes from their sight (no, Jesus is not aethereal, He is simply invisible to their eyes), and they being astonished, run all the way back to Jerusalem where the other disciples were hiding behind closed doors. Now the distance from Emmaus to Jerusalem, we are told, is "threescore furlongs" ("A Greek measure of length, being 600 Greek ft., or 100 orguiai equal to 606 3/4 English ft., and thus somewhat less than a furlong, which is 660 ft." - Link and thus is about 7-8 Miles as we would know them).

    7-8 Miles is a long way to run when the sun is setting, going back uphill (Jerusalem, the city on a hill). This would take several hours. It would be dark, by the time these reached Jerusalem and the other disciples, being the final "evening" (when the sun did set, see Mark 1:32).

    Therefore, when John says, "Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you."

    We know the timeframe it refers to. It was the end of the first day of the week, in the "evening", when the sun was set, which in reality, is another way of saying the 'second [day] of the week', contextually. The text refers to the "evening" at the end of the "first [day] of the week" which scripturally means the actual "second [day] of the week". I am not rewriting the text here. I am simply demonstrating that John is using a parallel language to say the same thing another way. It would be akin to saying the "Robe is purple.", and another person saying, the "Robe is a mixture of the shades of red and blue."

    Thus it was in actuality the second day of the week that Jesus appeared to them. Then we see another appearance "after eight days", which would place the following meeting, again, no matter how it is calculated (inclusive or exclusive), not upon the "first [day] of the week", but either the second or third:

    Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.​

    There is no consistent meeting only upon the "first day of the week" in all of the New Testament.

    Jesus met with the disciples for 40 days.

    Jesus met with the disciples 10 days before Pentecost (if we say it is the first [day] of the week, which is properly fine), then this is not a first [day] of the week.


    The New Testament states that the disciples (as Jesus and all Jews have before Luke 22:53, etc), met every day:

    Act_2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
    Act_2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

    Act_5:42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

    Act_6:1 And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.

    Act_20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.​

    etc.

    Yet, notice that the "daily" (1-7) meeting, never replaces the 7th day the Sabbath of the LORD as the Holy Day of God's rest. See Acts 4:24, 14:15-16, 17:30; Luke 23:54-56; Acts 1:12, 13:14,27,42,44, 15:21, 16:13, 17:2, 18:4; Hebrews 4:1-13; Revelation 1:10, 10:6, 14:7, etc.

    Act_13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
    Act_13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

    Act_15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.​

    etc.

    Finally, "Sunday" is pagan Roman time, from Midnight to Midnight, and not from scriptural Evening to Evening. The times overlap, true, but are not the same in their hours. If persons want to say that the disciples got together on the first day of the week, using most of the NT texts, they will find it was usually at "evening" (night time), not during the primary daylight hours or morning times.

    John 20:19 does not help the case of Sunday, one bit. ...
     
    #31 coconut theology, Jan 30, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2020
  12. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    Acts 20:7

    Act 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

    Act 20:7 εν δε τη μια των σαββατων συνηγμενων των μαθητων του κλασαι αρτον ο παυλος διελεγετο αυτοις μελλων εξιεναι τη επαυριον παρετεινεν τε τον λογον μεχρι μεσονυκτιου​

    This is an evening meeting, after Sabbath was over, for we see lights (Acts 20:8), and evening meals being eaten, and timeframe of preaching to Midnight and beyond. In fact, Paul travels some 19-21ish miles (from Troas) to the next city, Assos, by foot during the morning time. There is no “Sunday” service here. The day, scripturally begins at “evening” (Genesis 1, etc), and thus it is technically what the western mind would call “Saturday night”.

    It is also conducted in a common 'house' with an 'upper chamber (room)' (Acts 20:8,9), a 'third loft' (Acts 20:9), as there is no temple or even synagogue mentioned here. Persons met "house to house", even "daily" (Acts 2:42,46, 5:42, 6:1, 16:5, 17:11,17, 19:9, 20:31).

    There is no continual pattern here to meet merely and only upon the 'first [day] of the week', as it is a special meeting and farewell for Paul, who is forever leaving them, and also because of the events of Eutychus.

    The disciples eat a common meal, as they did every day (Acts 2:42,46), for there is no mention of the “cup”, “Lord's table or supper”, “footwashing”, “fruit of the vine”, "examin[ing]" oneself, etc.

    There is no special designation for the day, and is simply given in the common 'first' towards the culmination of the week, the Sabbath. The phrase in koine Greek is again demonstrative that the 7th day the sabbath is the culmination of the week, “εν δε τη μια των σαββατων”, as every single “first [day]” text reveals.

    There is no continual pattern indicated in any part of the text. This is a one-off event amidst a series of one-off events being recorded.

    Even as a 'pattern', it is at night time, held until midnight and beyond. Do those who attempt to utilize this as a 'pattern' really follow this as an example in their practice, and if not, why not?
     
  13. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    I think it is good to have a day of rest where possible, but expressing all that anathema towards your fellow Christians just because they arbitrarily use a different day comes across as unduly divisive and makes your God seem obsessed with mindless triviality instead of being concerned with what is genuinely beneficial to humans.
     
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  14. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    That's the part where you need humility to turn over what you 'think' to that which God thinks:

    Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
    Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
    Seriously.

    It is written:

    Joh_15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.​

    That includes "keeping the sabbath holy".

    The scripture does not speak of "a" (indefinite article) day of rest, as if mankind may willy-nilly or arbitrarily pick and choose, as if at a buffet table, but rather God's word is specific, "the" (definite article) 7th day "the" sabbath of the LORD thy God.

    Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
    Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
    Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
    Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

    Exo 20:8 זכור את־יום השׁבת לקדשׁו׃
    Exo 20:9 שׁשׁת ימים תעבד ועשׂית כל־מלאכתך׃
    Exo 20:10 ויום השׁביעי שׁבת ליהוה אלהיך לא־תעשׂה כל־מלאכה אתה ובנך־ובתך עבדך ואמתך ובהמתך וגרך אשׁר בשׁעריך׃
    Exo 20:11 כי שׁשׁת־ימים עשׂה יהוה את־השׁמים ואת־הארץ את־הים ואת־כל־אשׁר־בם וינח ביום השׁביעי על־כן ברך יהוה את־יום השׁבת ויקדשׁהו׃​

    God is very particular to distinguish between truth and error, good and evil (Isaiah 5:20), light and darkness (Genesis 1:4):

    Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.​

    God means what God says, for the Ten Commandments are the written transcript of His perfect character of love, Exodus 33:12-23, 34:1-9, 20:5-7 (John 14:15).

    Anything chosen over God is selfishness, and thus idolatry, sin. To choose one's own 'day' over God's "rest" (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11) is to spit in His face, and to trample upon the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ, who died to save us from our sins (Matthew 1:21).

    You are confused and have misread my responses. There is no 'anathema', but rather all love in speaking the truth, that persons will repent of their error unto truth.

    Again, you are mistaken. Profession of Christianity is not the whole picture, for many say, "Lord, Lord ...", but they do not what He asks of them to do ,and they instead practice iniquity (Luke 13:27) and thus better to warn them now (Isaiah 58:1).

    Therein is the very word, "arbitrarily", based upon the deceitful human heart and fallen reasoning:

    Jer_17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?​

    God is never arbitrary, but always sure with reason (Isaiah 1:18).

    And so shall it be, as it is written:

    Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
    Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
    Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
    Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
    Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
    Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.​

    Truth cannot abide error.

    JEHOVAH Elohiym is God over all whether you acknowledge it or not. Truth doesn't change to suit your whims and fancies.

    What you think insignificant, God holds in highest esteem.

    Psa_138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

    Isa_42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
    God is most concerned with what takes place down here, and so much so that:

    Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.​

    God sees the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:9-10), and sees the end of sin (1 John 3:4) - eternal death, oblivion, and so sends all warning that mankind may be delivered.
     
  15. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    Continuing at looking at the so-called 'first [day] of the week' proofs :

    1 Corinthians 16:2

    1Co 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

    1Co 16:2 κατα μιαν σαββατων εκαστος υμων παρ εαυτω τιθετω θησαυριζων ο τι αν ευοδωται ινα μη οταν ελθω τοτε λογιαι γινωνται​

    This is instruction by Paul, for the believers to gather their special collection offering for the poor in the dearth (famine) in Jerusalem, etc., at home by themselves ("every one of you (individual) lay by him (that is personal, at home) in store (personal storehouse)") and when Paul came by, they were to all have it ready for him and others to take.

    There is no church meeting here.

    It is a personal matter to be dealt with at home after Sabbath was over.

    Also, the instruction was specific to the needs in Jerusalem in the time of famine. Though it can be used as a principle for taking up special collections for various needs within the greater body.

    It was a special freewill ("as God hath prospered him") collection for those saints in the trouble.

    There is no mention of "worship", "temple", "synagogue", "house to house", "meeting", "Lord's supper", "breaking of bread", "footwashing", "fruit of the vine", "examin[ing]" oneself, etc here.

    There is no continual gathering "together" here either, as the instruction was to do this personally, individually at home (even the koine Greek is clear on this).

    Yet, again in the koine Greek, we see yet once more that the 7th day the Sabbath is still (and always) the culmination of the week, while the 'first [day]" is still simply a number in relation to God's rest, "κατα μιαν σαββατων"
     
  16. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    Some say, the 'first [day] of the week' is now 'made holy' by Jesus resurrecting from the dead, and find some 'reason' to then honour that day above God's specified day, the 7th day, of which even Jesus, 'rested' in the Tomb.

    There is no question as to what day Jesus arose from the dead. It was the "first [day] of the week", the day which followed the 7th day the sabbath of the LORD, see Luke 23:54-56, etc. That is not in question at all. It is always a mere distraction to bring it up. It is what is called a non-sequitur. For instance:

    The Last Supper was 'thursday night', beginning of the 'sixth day'.

    Crucifixion and Death was 'sixth day'.

    In the Tomb was Sabbath, the 7th day.

    Resurrection was 'first [day] of the week'

    His appearances were on many days of the week (as already shown).

    He did other miracles as recorded in those many other days.

    His ascension into Heaven (second time, from the Mt of Olives; Acts 1) was 10 days prior to Pentecost.

    All are required. All needful. None of those things change the 4th Commandment (Exodus 20:8-11), nor negates obedience to it in all that it says. Jesus death proves its eternality, as it is written:

    Isa 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
    There is not a single text in all of holy scripture (KJB) that states that the first [day] of the week' is ever made 'holy', by God the Father, Jesus the Son, the Holy Ghost, the Apostles or those who followed in 'the way' after.

    Historical citation has already been given as to who has thought to change times and laws of the most high God (Daniel 7:25, as it was foretold to take place), seeking to put themselves in the place of Jesus Christ, the very [koine Greek] Anti Christos; the [Latin] Vicarivs Christi.
     
  17. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    Here is a listing of (illogical) 'reasons' usually given for not Honouring the 4th Commandment (Exodus 20:8-11) of God:

    Calendar has been Changed
    Christ is the End of the Law ...
    Early Church Fathers Citations
    Every Day is Holy
    History of the Church
    International Dateline (Dayline)
    Jesus Broke the Sabbath
    Jesus Fulfilled the Law
    Jesus Kept the Sabbath for me, so I do not now have to
    Jesus Nailed the Sabbath to the Cross
    Jesus is my Sabbath
    Jesus Rose from the Dead on the First Day of the Week, Ending the Sabbath
    Jesus Rose from the Dead on the First Day of the Week, Making it the New Sabbath
    Livelihood - gotta keep my job to put food on the table
    Lunar sabbaths
    Nine Commandments Found in the New Testament, but not Sabbath
    No Commandment in Genesis to keep the Sabbath
    No Commandment in the New Testament to keep the Sabbath
    No Commandment to Keep the Sabbath until Exodus 20
    No Evening and Morning on the 7th Day in Genesis
    No Man Kept Sabbath until Moses
    No Word Sabbath in Genesis
    Not to Judge about Sabbath Keeping
    Not Under the Law but Under Grace
    Not Under the Old Covenant (which they say is the Ten Commandments)
    One Day in Seven Is Holy
    Only Two Commandments to Keep Now
    Sabbath was Changed to the LORD's Day (which they say is the first day)
    Sabbath was only for the Hebrews
    Sabbath was only for the Israelites
    Sabbath was only for the Jews
    Sabbath was only temporary
    Seventh Day Sabbath cannot be Kept on the International Space Station
    Seventh Day Sabbath cannot be Kept on the Poles (North & South)
    Seventh Day Sabbath cannot be Kept on a Submarine
    Seventh Day Sabbath was a Shadow of Things to Come
    Stone the Sabbath Breaker
    Sunday is the LORD's Day
    Sunday is the New Order of Sabbaths (Mat. 28:1)
    Sunday is the Sabbath
    Time has been Lost
    Tradition of the Churches
    Under the New Covenant (which they say does not include the Ten Commandments)
    We are in the New Creation, the 8th Day (Ogdoad)
    Pagans don't keep OT sabbath
    Atheists don't believe in JEHOVAH Elohiym to bother with any of that
    Muslims follow Muhammad and 'allah' and keep 'Friday' instead
    'Cause 'reasons' (which are never given)​

    What is your personal 'reason' as listed above (or if not listed, please list it so it may be added), and does anyone see any contradictions concerning the above 'reasons'?
     
    #37 coconut theology, Feb 2, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2020
  18. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    What about Romans 14?

    Can anyone show me the word "sabbath", "law", "commandment/s", "the 7th day" in the passages of Romans 14 KJB?

    What shall we notice as we consider the text of Romans 14 in whole? The first thing that should immediately be noticed, is that the following Greek words are nowhere present in Romans 14:

    [1.] sabbaton [Sabbath, the Holy 7th Day of the Lord thy God]
    [2.] th hmera th ebdomh [the 7th Day],
    [3.] akathartos [[inherently] unclean],
    [4.] bdelygma [abomination],
    [5.] katapausis, anapauo, anapausis [rest],
    [6.] episynagoge, synago [gathering, [sacred] assembling],
    [7.] nomos [Law],
    [8.] entole [commandment]

    Romans 14, the quick of it.

    Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
    Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
    Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
    Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
    Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
    Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
    Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.​

    These texts are incorrectly used to teach that God regards not any day as Holy, such as the 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD thy God (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11), and that all days or no days may be kept at man's whim. Yet that is not what Romans 14 (and yea, all of Romans) teaches at all. Notice carefully,

    [1] the days spoken of are associated with eating/drinking, not eating/not drinking.

    [2] the matter is over those 'weak' and 'strong' in faith concerning eating/drinking and days to do and not do those things on

    [3] the context deals with "One man esteemeth", and not what God esteems (Isaiah 56:1-8, 58:13; Psalms 89:34) as permanent and so, and God's word is clear about what men esteem:

    Luk_16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

    The Jews continually argued over which were better days to do this thing or that thing, like fasting, feasting, etc: [Matthew 9:14; Mark 2:18; Luke 5:33, 18:12 KJB]​

    [4]
    the words for sabbath is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

    [5] the words of the seventh day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

    [6] the words for the Lord's day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

    [7] Romans 14 is in the context of Romans 13, which directly cites the latter (2nd) table of the Ten Commandments, for love to neighbour, which is also found in Leviticus 19:17-18, in the context of sin and the Ten Commandments

    [8] Romans 15 is the other end, and when combined with 1 Corinthians 8-10, the context is clear that the sabbath of the LORD thy God (Exodus 20:8-11) is not in view in the least, and is sustained by the rest of Paul in Romans by his statements on the eternal spiritual, holy, just and good Law (Exodus 20:1-17) of God, which identifies what sin is (Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

    [9] the entire context of Romans 14 is to do nothing (even if allowed normally, yet not under special circumstances) to cause others to sin:

    Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.​

    [10]
    Paul never contradicts himself, and Paul's writings are scripture (2 Peter 3:16), and scripture cannot be broken, John 10:35) and does not teach transgression of God's Law (Exodus 20:1-17) at any point:

    Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
    Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

    Rom_6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

    Rom_7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.​

    [11]
    the words for "law", "commandments" are never used in Romans 14

    [12] Paul in numerous places lists and upholds every single one of the Ten Commandments in the NT, including the 4th Commandment (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11) in Hebrews 3-4, etc.

    [13] Romans 14 is about excluding those things which were "doubful disputations", and not a single one of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17) were ever doubtful or to be disputed in any place in all of scripture (KJB), for the Commandment of God are "sure" (Psalms 111:7).

    [14] the words for "covenant/testament" are never used in Romans 14

    [15] the words for 'first [day] of the week' are never used in Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

    [16] none of the 'Sunday' (first [day] of the week) churches use Romans 14 to teach that I may ignore the day they gather on, even though that day is not sanctified by God in any way what so ever in scripture (KJB), and is never called "the Lord's day" in scripture, neither is it "the seventh day the sabbath of the LORD thy God".

    [17] nobody uses Romans 14 to teach I can simply stop eating/drinking on every day

    [18] anyone who quotes Romans 14, has in mind 'restrictions', rather than allowances​

    Let's look at the details of Romans 14.

    Romans 14 KJB, deals with the days that "man esteemeth" among men, see Luke 16:15 KJB. God esteems His Holy day [Job 23:12; Psalms 119:126-128 KJB].

    The "day" in Romans 14 is associated with eating and not eating, among "men", which are days set apart for men for fasting/feasting, etc. The Jews had constantly fought with one another over which days were better to do this or that [Matthew 9:14; Mark 2:18; Luke 5:33, 18:12 KJB]. Some Jews decide that any day was fine to do any of those things, while others had specific days picked out for those things [see also the historical source the "Didache"].

    Paul stated it didn't matter, and each was fine, so long as either side did it unto the LORD, to the glory of God, not for personal gain/prestige/notice [as the Pharisees had done], but that what mattered was brotherly love within the body, preferring one another.

    Connect Romans 14, to 1 Corinthians 8-10 KJB. There were issues with the Gentile believers purchasing food in the shambles [marketplaces] which may have been blessed or offered before idols, and some Jews, and possibly Gentiles believers which took offence at anyone partaking of those things.

    Paul stated that an Idol is nothing, but the persons for whom Christ Jesus died were of value, and therefore, regard the conscience of another, and cause no one to sin, even if what was eaten was immediately lawful to a person, but such freedom within God's law, not everything is always expedient, or best to do at all times.

    There were also Jewish believers in Christ who were still under their vows, even Nazarite vows, and thus things of the vine in matters of eating and drinking would come into play as well. Just because Christ Jesus died on the Cross, doesn't negate their vow - they still had to carry out what they said they would do.

    If persons read Romans 1-13, the Law, the Ten Commandments of God are spoken of and cited throughout, as eternal, as the judge of sin [Romans 7:7 KJB; in fact how do persons know they need as Saviour according to Paul? What Law was transgressed? Exodus 20:1-17 KJB], and Romans 15-16 continue and complete this picture. God's Ten Commandments are Eternal [Psalms 89:34 KJB], His Sabbath from Genesis to Revelation, even into the New Heavens and New Earth [Isaiah 66:22-23 KJB].
     
  19. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    We can come back to Romans as necessary. Let's consider Colossians 2 briefly, though we can consider in great detail later:

    Colossians 2 KJB, parallels Ephesians 2 KJB, and Hebrews 9-10 KJB. The language is the same. The "ordinances" in Colossians 2 deals with "shadows", such as the daily "meat and drink" offerings of a worldly sanctuary and carnal ordinances, the seasonal "feast days", the monthly "new moons", and the year based "sabbaths", in the singular, every 7 and 50th years, as Paul is citing Psalms 98:1-3; and Ezekiel 45:17 KJB with other texts.

    The Sabbath of the LORD thy God is always called "my [as in God's] sabbaths", and the others in Leviticus 23:4 onward are called "your [the peoples] sabbaths" [Leviticus 26:35 KJB] which are "beside [given in addition to] the sabbaths of the LORD" [Leviticus 23:38 KJB]. The Ten Commandments, including the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment, are "light" [Proverbs 6:23, Isaiah 8:20, 51:4 KJB], never a "shadow", are "spiritual" [Romans 7:14 KJB], never "carnal" [Hebrews 9:10 KJB].

    Colossians 2:14 - "ordinances"
    Ephesians 2:15 - "law of commandments contained in ordinances"
    Hebrews 9:1 - "ordinances of divine service"
    Hebrews 9:10 - "carnal ordinances"

    Colossians 2:16 - "in meat, or in drink" [offerings]
    Hebrews 9:10 - "meats and drinks" [offerings]

    Colossians 2:12 - "also ye are risen with him"
    Ephesians 2:6 - "raised us up together"

    Colossians 2:16 - "a shadow of things to come"
    Ephesians 2:7 - "in the ages to come"
    Hebrews 9:11 - "of good things to come"
    Hebrews 10:1 - "the law having a shadow of good things to come", "those sacrifices", "offered year by year"​

    [ps. none of the Ten Commandments deal with carnal sacrifices]
    etc.

    Colossians 2 speaks of plural, "sabbath days" (or 'of sabbaths'). The context, is also not concerned with all 'sabbaths' but is limited in scope, to that which is "shadow" (not light, not body or substance), that which is "of things to come" (type pointing to the future events) and of "ordinances" (not moral or spiritual Law; Romans 7:14 as the Ten Commandments are), as follows.

    [1]
    The Sabbath of the LORD thy God, of Creation (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11), was given to mankind (Adam) before the sin of mankind (Mark 2:27), before the need of shadow and type, which were given after the sin of mankind, under the Levitical priesthood.

    [2] The Sabbath of the LORD the God, is a memorial (pointing backwards, thu the words "Remember" (Exodus 20:8)), to a perfect world without sin, perfect relationship, perfect rest), and is not pointing to the future.

    [3] The Sabbath of the LORD thy God, is singular and specific. "The seventh day" "the sabbath" "of the LORD thy God".

    Exodus 20:8 KJB - Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
    Exodus 20:9 KJB - Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
    Exodus 20:10 KJB - But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
    Exodus 20:11 KJB - For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

    Exodus 20:8 HOT - זכור את־יום השׁבת לקדשׁו׃
    Exodus 20:9 HOT - שׁשׁת ימים תעבד ועשׂית כל־מלאכתך׃
    Exodus 20:10 HOT - ויום השׁביעי שׁבת ליהוה אלהיך לא־תעשׂה כל־מלאכה אתה ובנך־ובתך עבדך ואמתך ובהמתך וגרך אשׁר בשׁעריך׃
    Exodus 20:11 HOT - כי שׁשׁת־ימים עשׂה יהוה את־השׁמים ואת־הארץ את־הים ואת־כל־אשׁר־בם וינח ביום השׁביעי על־כן ברך יהוה את־יום השׁבת ויקדשׁהו׃

    Exodus 20:8 HOT Translit. - zäkhôr et-yôm haSHaBät l'qaD'shô
    Exodus 20:9 HOT Translit. - shëshet yämiym Taávod w'äsiytä Käl-m'lakh'Tekhä
    Exodus 20:10 HOT Translit. -w'yôm haSH'viyiy shaBät layhwäh éloheykhä lo-taáseh khäl-m'läkhäh aTäh ûvin'khä-ûviTekhä av'D'khä waámät'khä ûv'hem'Tekhä w'gër'khä ásher Bish'äreykhä
    Exodus 20:11 HOT Translit. - Kiy shëshet-yämiym äsäh y'hwäh et-haSHämayim w'et-hääretz et-haYäm w'et-Käl-ásher-Bäm waYänach BaYôm haSH'viyiy al-Kën Bërakh' y'hwäh et-yôm haSHaBät way'qaD'shëhû š​

    [4]
    The Sabbath of the LORD is separate from the yearly festal sabbaths, as denoted in Leviticus 23 (see Leviticus 23:3; then see Leviticus 23:4,38 "beside the sabbaths of the LORD")

    [5] The Sabbath of the LORD thy God, is called "the sabbath of the LORD" (Exodus 20:8-11, etc), and "My sabbaths" (Isaiah 56:4; Ezekiel 20:20), as opposed to theirs, called "your sabbaths" (Leviticus 26:34,35), and "her sabbaths" (Leviticus 26:34,43; 2 Chronicles 26:31; Lamentations 1:7; Hosea 2:11), etc.

    [6] Colossians 2, in its entire context says nothing about "the seventh day", but speaks of merely the shadow sabbaths (plural, not singular), and says nothing of "commandment" (as Luke 23:54,56 does), but speaks of wordly "ordinances" (Colossians 2:14,20).

    [7] Colossians 2, speaks of "sins" (Colossians 2:13), which is "transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4), of which the 4th Commandment (Exodus 20:8-11) is central, whereas the yearly (and of years) sabbaths are not given in the Ten Commandments at all​

    More can be said, but 7 was a good number to round it off at this point, more in detail in a bit.
     
  20. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    Back to Romans, and let's consider Paul's overall use in regards the Law of God:

    Who is doing the "esteem[ing]" in Romans 14, God or man?

    Romans 14:5 KJB - One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.​

    What did Jesus say:

    Luke 16:15 KJB - And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.​

    Paul throughout Romans 1-13, 15-16, etc and in every other epistle he wrote, magnified the Ten Commandments as to be obeyed by those in Christ Jesus, by the Holy Spirit:

    Even at the beginning of Romans 14 [and yea, all of Romans], we see that we are dealing not with the abolition or setting aside of any of God's 10 Commandments or Health Laws in Diet, in any manner, as may be witnessed throughout [Romans 1:18, 3:31, 6:1-23, 7:7,12,14,16, 8:4-14, 9:6-8,27,31,32, 11:1-36, 12:1,2,5,9, 13:8-14, 15:1-27, 16:17-19], for Paul clearly says, “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” [Romans 3:31].

    “...the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men ...” [Romans 1:18;p] [as John also says; “All unrighteousness is sin ...” [1 John 5:7;p]] [“...as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:” [Romans 11:26;p]]​

    How did Paul teach about the Law, Ten Commandments, and Sin and Transgression just in the Book of Romans?

    “...keep the righteousness of the law ...” [Romans 2:26;p]

    “...if it fulfil the law ...” [Romans 2:27;p]

    “...we establish the law ...” [Romans 3:31;p]

    “... we are buried with him by baptism into death...that like as Christ was raised up... even so we also should walk in newness of life.” [Romans 6:4;p]

    “...our old man is crucified...we should not serve sin.” [Romans 6:6;p]

    “...he that is dead is freed from sin.” [Romans 6:7;p]

    “...in that he died, he died unto sin...he liveth unto God.” [Romans 6:10;p]

    “...reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.” [Romans 6:11;p]

    “Let not sin therefore reign...” [Romans 6:12;p]

    “Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.” [Romans 6:13]

    “... shall we sin...God forbid.” [Romans 6:15;p]

    “Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?” [Romans 6:16]

    “... ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.” [Romans 6:16;p]

    “...made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.” [Romans 6:18;p]

    “...as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.” [Romans 6:19;p]

    “...ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.” [Romans 6:20;p]

    “...fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things [is] death.” [Romans 6:21;p]

    “...made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.” [Romans 6:22;p]

    “... the wages of sin [is] death...” [Romans 6:23;p]

    “...[Is] the law sin? God forbid...I had not known sin, but by the law...I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.” [Romans 7:7;p]

    “...the commandment, which [was ordained] to life ...” [Romans 7:10;p]

    “...the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.” [Romans 7:12;p]

    “For we know that the law is spiritual ...” [Romans 7:14;p]

    “...I consent unto the law that [it is] good.” [Romans 7:16;p]

    “That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” [Romans 8:4]

    “...they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.” [Romans 8:5;p]

    “...to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.” [Romans 8:6;p]

    “...the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” [Romans 8:7;p]

    “...they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” [Romans 8:8;p]

    “...we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.” [Romans 8:12;p]

    “...if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” [Romans 8:13;p]

    “...the law of righteousness.” [Romans 9:31;p]

    “...Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.” [Romans 12:9;p]

    “Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.” [Romans 13:8]

    “For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” [Romans 13:9]

    “Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.” [Romans 13:10]

    “...cast off the works of darkness...” [Romans 13:12;p]

    “Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.” [Romans 13:13]

    “...make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof].” [Romans 13:14;p]​
     
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