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JW's view of the human soul

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
If I understand correctly, the standard view of the Jehovah's Witnesses is that humans don't have a soul, they are a soul (that is, that our soul is the totality of who we are, including mind and body). Is this true? I have found this particular interpretation appealing because I lean towards the belief that the human mind is a product of brain activity and hence cannot really figure out what a "spiritual" soul separate from the body would even be for humans. However, I'm finding it difficult to reconcile this view with the following verse of scripture (when Jesus was speaking to one of the thieves that were being crucified):

Luke 23:43: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

It would seem to imply, at least on the surface of it, that the thieve's soul was going to a place called Paradise. If the body is part of the soul, then how would this be accomplished (especially considering that the body would have been buried after he died)? How do JWs interpret this?
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
If I understand correctly, the standard view of the Jehovah's Witnesses is that humans don't have a soul, they are a soul (that is, that our soul is the totality of who we are, including mind and body). Is this true? I have found this particular interpretation appealing because I lean towards the belief that the human mind is a product of brain activity and hence cannot really figure out what a "spiritual" soul separate from the body would even be for humans.

Hi Kryptid,

You are correct in that our understanding of 'soul' means our entire living selves. This comes from the meaning of the hebrew word Nephesh, which is the word used in the genesis account in the creation of animals and man.

When God created Adam, he first created the body of Adam, then he blew into the man after which he came to life and was then called a 'living soul'
Its noteworthy to consider that even the animal creation were also called 'souls'
Here are a few quotes from other sources regarding the meaning of the 'soul' according to the bibles view:

“There is no dichotomy [division] of body and soul in the O[ld] T[estament]. The Israelite saw things concretely, in their totality, and thus he considered men as persons and not as composites. The term nepeš [ne′phesh], though translated by our word soul, never means soul as distinct from the body or the individual person. .*.*. The term [psy·khe′] is the N[ew] T[estament] word corresponding with nepeš. It can mean the principle of life, life itself, or the living being.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII,*pp.*449, 450.

“The Hebrew term for ‘soul’ (nefesh, that which breathes) was used by Moses .*.*.*, signifying an ‘animated being’ and applicable equally to nonhuman beings. .*.*. New Testament usage of psychē (‘soul’) was comparable to nefesh.”—The New Encyclopædia Britannica (1976), Macropædia, Vol. 15, p. 152.

“The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture.”—The Jewish Encyclopedia (1910), Vol. VI, p. 564.


However, I'm finding it difficult to reconcile this view with the following verse of scripture (when Jesus was speaking to one of the thieves that were being crucified):

Luke 23:43: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

It would seem to imply, at least on the surface of it, that the thieve's soul was going to a place called Paradise. If the body is part of the soul, then how would this be accomplished (especially considering that the body would have been buried after he died)? How do JWs interpret this?

our understanding of this verse is based on the fact that we do not believe the soul is a separate entity to ourselves. Hence, Jesus words cannot mean that the man would be going to paradise on that same day. Death is the end of life....of which even the scriptures say:

Ecclesiates 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all,

Psalm 146:4 His spirit(breath) goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish


But to understand why Jesus said that man would be in paradise, we need to know about the 'resurrection'
Jesus taught that all mankind would be resurrected in the future...the good and the bad.

JOhn 5:28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment

We believe the verse means that this man will be resurrected in the future when all those in the memorial tombs are restored to life. This happens during the 1,000 year messianic age. It is also called the 'judgement day'. Mary expressed her faith in this when she said of her dead brother lazarus:

John 11;21 Martha then said to Jesus: “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 Yet even now I know that whatever you ask God for, God will give you.” 23 Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”


So it will be with the criminal as well....he will rise in the resurrection when the earth is restored to a paradise.
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Pegg what body did the breath of Jesus return to?

Jesus was raised as a spirit...so the body was a 'new' body for him.

1Peter 3:18 For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit


After he died, he was raised in 'spirit' which means the body he was given was completely new...it wasn't flesh and blood.

1Cor 15:44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam (Jesus) became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Pegg what does this mean " a spirit does not have flesh and bone"

I know where you are going with this, but it doesnt work. The bible accounts show that the spirits are able to appear in fleshly bodies. The account about Abraham being visited by 3 angels...they sat with him and ate a meal. And the account about Jacob who wrestled all night with an angel shows that spirits are able to put on fleshly bodies when they need to.

In the case of Jesus, after he had been put to death, some of his disciples were having a hard time believing that he had been resurrected ....when he appeared to them they didnt' believe it was Jesus...they thought it was a spirit, but not him.

Luke 24: 36 While they were speaking of these things he himself stood in their midst [[and said to them: “May YOU have peace.”]] 37 But because they were terrified, and had become frightened, they were imagining they beheld a spirit. 38 So he said to them: “Why are YOU troubled, and why is it doubts come up in YOUR hearts? 39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; feel me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as YOU behold that I have.” 40 [[And as he said this he showed them his hands and his feet.]] 41 But while they were still not believing for sheer joy and were wondering, he said to them: “Do YOU have something there to eat?” 42 And they handed him a piece of broiled fish; 43 and he took it and ate it before their eyes.



So Jesus became physical and let them touch him to help them believe that it really was him.
 

dance-above

Member
But Jesus was no Angel. Who did God promise would sit on the throne of David a man or an angel?
God may have transformed his lowly body to a glorified body but it was still his body. Why do you resist?
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
But Jesus was no Angel. Who did God promise would sit on the throne of David a man or an angel?
God may have transformed his lowly body to a glorified body but it was still his body. Why do you resist?

Angels, God and Jesus all have one thing in common, they all reside in heaven and have spirit bodies.

Angel actually means 'messenger'.... any spirit who comes with a message from God can rightly be termed an 'angel'

Jesus was a spirit in heaven, came to earth with a message and a job to do...he is an angel.
 

dance-above

Member
Pegg I like you. And in my heart I really believe you want to live forever. Sparing with words want get us no where. Its the work of the Spirit that guides. Either the one from heaven or the one of earth that is carnal and demonic. One brings life the other brings death and destruction. Christ is the same today as always.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Pegg I like you. And in my heart I really believe you want to live forever. Sparing with words want get us no where. Its the work of the Spirit that guides. Either the one from heaven or the one of earth that is carnal and demonic. One brings life the other brings death and destruction. Christ is the same today as always.

it doesnt get anywhere if people dont want to accept what the bible says either.

Gods word trumps human opinion every time for me.

1thess 4:16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet,


Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God.


The Message (MSG)
16...The Master himself will give the command. Archangel thunder! God’s trumpet blast!

Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a rousing cry, with a call from one of the ruling angels, and with God’s shofar

King James Version (KJV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
16 because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven


I dont think anyone would deny that Jesus is Gods chief messenger. And i dont think anyone with a little knowledge of the meaning of biblical words would try to deny that 'angel' means 'messenger'.

So why is it so difficult to believe that Jesus could infact be the Chief Messenger, or 'arch angel' as the bible calls him?
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
it doesnt get anywhere if people dont want to accept what the bible says either.

Gods word trumps human opinion every time for me.

1thess 4:16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet,


Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God.


The Message (MSG)
16...The Master himself will give the command. Archangel thunder! God’s trumpet blast!

Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a rousing cry, with a call from one of the ruling angels, and with God’s shofar

King James Version (KJV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
16 because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven


I dont think anyone would deny that Jesus is Gods chief messenger. And i dont think anyone with a little knowledge of the meaning of biblical words would try to deny that 'angel' means 'messenger'.

So why is it so difficult to believe that Jesus could infact be the Chief Messenger, or 'arch angel' as the bible calls him?

There is more than one Archangel. This passage is descriptive.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
There is more than one Archangel. This passage is descriptive.

How many are named in the bible?

Gabriel is not called an 'arch' angel. Arch means 'chief'


How many chiefs control a clan? How many Chief Executive Officers control a corportation?
How many 'Chief Agents of Life' (Acts 3:15) have been sent into the world?

Chief implies 'one' not many.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
How many are named in the bible?

Gabriel is not called an 'arch' angel. Arch means 'chief'


How many chiefs control a clan? How many Chief Executive Officers control a corportation?
How many 'Chief Agents of Life' (Acts 3:15) have been sent into the world?

Chief implies 'one' not many.

Why would this make Jesus Michael? Michael is a separate entity. Even if I agree with your interpretation of Jesus being an archangel, it still doesn't make Him Michael.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Why would this make Jesus Michael? Michael is a separate entity. Even if I agree with your interpretation of Jesus being an archangel, it still doesn't make Him Michael.

Why doesn't it make him Michael?
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Because it doesn't state it? Why exactly wouldn't it state such an important fact?

No, it's reading into the Scripture in a manner that doesn't make sense.


Well what do the scriptures tell us about Michaels role?

And what do they tell us about Jesus role?

Have a look and tell me what you find.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
here's a hint

Hebrews 1:3 - Jesus Position
Daniel 12:1 - Michaels position

Revelation 12:7 - Michaels role
Matthew 24:29-31 - Jesus role
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
here's a hint

Hebrews 1:3 - Jesus Position
Daniel 12:1 - Michaels position

Revelation 12:7 - Michaels role
Matthew 24:29-31 - Jesus role

And yet you don't ascribe deity to Jesus. This makes no sense. You can't have an archangel and 'just a man' as the same entity.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
And yet you don't ascribe deity to Jesus. This makes no sense. You can't have an archangel and 'just a man' as the same entity.

all the angels are gods in that they are all powerful spirits.

Jesus was originally from the heavens, he even said so:

John 6:38 for I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

If Jesus is 'from heaven', then he must be one of those powerful spirits. Why do you think the Jews didnt' believe him and accused him of making himself to be a god?

And after Jesus was resurrected, he returned to that position as Gods Chief angel once more.
 

Big_TJ

Active Member
How many are named in the bible?

Gabriel is not called an 'arch' angel. Arch means 'chief'


How many chiefs control a clan? How many Chief Executive Officers control a corportation?
How many 'Chief Agents of Life' (Acts 3:15) have been sent into the world?

Chief implies 'one' not many.

Really??? Well, let's see: In my organization, there is a Chief Executive Officer, a Chief People Officer, a Chief Information officer, A Chief Financial Officer, a Chief Information Technology Officer.... That's 5 Chiefs so far. Bad analogy, Pegg.:slap:
 
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