1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured JWs & The Bible

Discussion in 'Comparative Religion' started by nPeace, Mar 31, 2021.

  1. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    4,027
    Ratings:
    +757
    Religion:
    Christian
    In Matt 24:3 there may not be 3 events however. Jesus coming and the end of the age could be one event.
     
  2. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    4,027
    Ratings:
    +757
    Religion:
    Christian
    Why is there a period of time before Jesus would receive the scepter?
    If Jesus is subduing in the midst of His enemies then they are not under His feet and so God is subduing for Him when He has the sceptre and so is ruling?
    This sounds as if it is when the word of God, the Law went out from Jerusalem to the world 2000 years ago.

    It does rely on parousia meaning presence. If it means coming then the signs are related to the coming of Jesus.

    How is it that this is a composite sign that Christ began ruling as king?
    I would say that this happened when Jesus went to heaven after His resurrection and received a Kingdom, as in Dan 7:13-14.
    Surely Jesus has been King over the Kingdom of God from that time on. The Kingdom has been in existence from that time. That is what Jesus preached. Since John the Baptist the Kingdom of God is preached. Before that there the Law and Prophets were proclaimed. ( Luke 16:16)
    Edit added: In regard to Jesus being King from about 2000 years ago I have noticed a couple of JWs using the following passage to show that Jesus is invisible:
    1Tim 6:15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
    But of course the passage is about the Father, whom nobody has seen, whereas many have seen Jesus.
    However if JWs want to use that passage then it should be noted that the passage is describing Him as King of Kings. So He was a King back then. This would mean that this makes a contradiction in JW theology. So when did He become King?
     
    #42 Brian2, Apr 3, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2021
  3. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    9,483
    Ratings:
    +2,829
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    I see you have finally turned up B.
    I left some questions for you in response to your posts, but it seems you like to ask questions, but avoid those posed to you. This would make the second time.

    The answer to your question has already been answered. but avoiding questions is bad, especially when you just want to argue without scriptural backing, or having to directly address scriptural questions.

    Deeje is her own woman, but I can easily persuade her not to get into a "spat" with you, until you have addressed the questions posed to you in Post #2.

    Did you miss those. It has been days since they were posted. You did get an indication of the post, didn't you?
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  4. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    9,483
    Ratings:
    +2,829
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    @Brian2 I'm discussing something with someone right now.
    I have a few more things to discuss on Matthew 24, and the prophecy in Daniel.
    It might take at least two more posts.
    When I am finished here, I will look to see if you answered my questions. if you have not, I will wait until after you have addressed those to respond to any other. Check the OP, and the post after, to see that you didn't miss anything.

    Otherwise, @Deeje can take them up with you, if she wants.

    It's likely that my other posts to Pete, will address any other queries you might have, also.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  5. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    9,483
    Ratings:
    +2,829
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    Paul is referencing Numbers 16:5, where the divine name is used. So he would have used the divine name.
    If you go to the Appendix - A5, of the revised version of the NWT, it would explain.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    9,483
    Ratings:
    +2,829
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    @Pete in Panama I take it that you are still listening, and your silence is an indication to go on, so I will proceed.

    Taking verses 45-51 I want to zero in on verse 45.
    Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?

    We know that master is Jesus. We agree.
    The master appoints the slave - the faithful and discrete one.
    The slave has a duty - feed Christ's domestics with food at the proper time.

    Why is this so important? The verses we read earlier says that the end will come suddenly, and unexpected. So it is important that the domestics are fed spiritually, so that they do not lull off to sleep.

    Who really is the faithful and discrete slave appointed by the master jesus Christ?
    It is those who are busy in the masters work. it is those who are keeping watchful for the Lord's visit, and his future coming.

    Can we identify them? Yes we can. We must. Otherwise, how will we be fed? How will we know where to feed?

    To abbreviate what could be a long post.
    Point's in review...
    1. Jesus had given the sign prior to his presence, and its fulfillment.
    2. The sign was clear... but to whom especially? Those looking for it.
    3. The Devil was hurled from heaven down to the earth, when Jesus became present as king - the white horse rode forth.
    4. The red horse galloped forth after that - a great sword in the hand of its rider, to take away peace from the earth - World War 1 took place - the Great war... followed by the other two horses. (See this video)
    5. Jesus thus began ruling in the year 1914 (the year World war 1 began)
    However, his followers were looking for the sign. this is where Daniel comes in.
    Please watch the video.

    Jehovah's Witnesses have been proclaiming the year 1914, as a significant year, long before it arrived.
    True, they did not know the full details of what would take place, but that is not surprising.
    Joseph and Daniel did not know the full details concerning the prophetic dreams they were given. Ezekiel and John neither.

    They all had to wait until the prophecy was fulfilled to fully understand the details.
    Similarly, although jesus followers were on the watch for his presence, they discerned from the prophesies, the timing, and they proclaimed it, but the details only became fully realized later.
    Jesus said there would be wars, food-shortages, earthquakes. we see these all taking place.

    There are lots more I can say to demonstrate, who really is the faithful, and discrete slave, but I'll leave that for later. At this time. I will remain silent, and let others speak.

    Also, I will apologize to @Brian2 for my obvious expression of annoyance at his avoidance of specific questions related to the Bible. You are here now Brian, and I thank you for turning up, although I believe you have other intentions than discussing the Bible texts persons give you.
    Nevertheless, please, you are welcomed. and enjoy your stay. Maybe @Deeje will be happy to address your posts.
    I will do so, only where there is a fairness to respond to questions directly posed to you... on the Bible of course.
    I have no desire to argue on what you believe.
    Present scriptures, and we will discuss the scriptures, and see if they match up to beliefs.
    The topic of the thread is JWs & the Bible, so all you have to do is simply show that JWs teachings do not match up to the Bible.... using scripture, of course. :)
     
    #46 nPeace, Apr 3, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2021
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  7. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    9,483
    Ratings:
    +2,829
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    Please provide the scriptures you are referring to. Also please specifically state what you disagree with from the post, as it clearly explains the use of the Greek word parousia. certainly you are not asking me to repeat, are you?
     
  8. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    9,483
    Ratings:
    +2,829
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    This is why we are dealing with the scriptures and not could bes. Any could bes, could be left alone. In fact I think they should.

    The use of the word coming, would make the text take on the meaning you suggest - that is more specifically the time just before (but can all be put into one) the conclusion of the system of things, because the coming of Christ, as mentioned in the text I referred to here, uses the word coming.
    It is important that we recognize that, since that is not referring to when Christ comes as described here...
    (Matthew 24:29-31) 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

    Notice, a differnt Greek word is used (ἔρχομαι) erchomai.
    So it is important to have the correct rendering of Matthew 24:3.
    If you use coming, you completely muddle up the account of Matthew 24.
    Using the correct term - presence, as explained, in post #28,
    Consider the Greek word parousia. When translated coming, it can convey a wrong understanding of what the original writers were stating.

    Consider HELPS Word-studies
    3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).

    [3952 (parousía) is "used in the east as a technical expression for the royal visit of a king, or emperor. The word means literally 'the being beside,' thus, 'the personal presence' " (K. Wuest, 3, Bypaths, 33).]

    When we consider the literal meaning, right away, we see that coming does not fit.
    Coming does not mean arrived, or present.
    Yet this is what the Greek word conveys.- personal presence... from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation".

    Are you saying that using presence in Matthew 24:3 is incorrect?
     
    #48 nPeace, Apr 3, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2021
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    14,649
    Ratings:
    +8,293
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Two points of interest in that scripture (2 Timothy 2:19).....
    “Jehovah knows those who belong to him” is a quote from Numbers 16:5 where the Tetragrammaton is there in the Hebrew......and also “calling on the name of Jehovah from Joel 2:32 which specifically mention calling on the name of YHWH....“Yahweh” (Jehovah in English) not Jesus.

    If one of the strictest branches of the Jewish faith recognizes that God’s name means “I Will Be What I Will Be” then you you need to make your complaints to them, not us.

    God’s name is not just a statement of his existence because his people knew of his existence long before God liberated them from Egypt. Only after that liberation were his people taken into a covenant that bound them to him and obligated them to obey his laws given through Moses as mediator of that covenant.

    The only ones in error are those who have their own ideas about how to interpret the Bible. God does not reveal his truth to just one person. His people are a brotherhood who accept his son as Messiah and are “fed” by the “slave” appointed by Jesus to do so....(Matthew 24:45) Do you believe that is you?
     
  10. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2018
    Messages:
    2,453
    Ratings:
    +324
    Religion:
    biblical believer
    Let's begin here; 'Jesus went away - he returned to heaven.' Where in the scriptures does it say that Jesus 'RETURNED' to heaven?

    The authors of the Good News Catholic Study Edition of the bible, who believe that the man Jesus pre-existed as an alien non-human lifeform, who was the co-creator of the cosmos, etc, have erroneously interpreted the Greek ἀναβαίνω (anabainó) which means—[to go up, ascend,] as “Return,” their interpretation of John 20: 17; erroneously states: ““Do not hold me, for I have not yet gone back up to ‘THE’ Father: but go to my brothers and say to them, “I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God, etc.

    Whereas the correct translation is, ““Do not hold me, for I have not yet ASCENDED to ‘THE’ Father: but go to my brothers and say to them, “I am ASCENDING to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God, etc.

    There are many Greek words that can be translated to mean "RETURN," but the Greek ἀναβαίνω (anabaino) which is correctly translated as “ASCEND” is not one of them. "Our Father who art in heaven." We all have the one Father; this is why the man Jesus refers to our heavenly Father as [THE Father.]
     
  11. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    9,483
    Ratings:
    +2,829
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    (John 3:13) . . .Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man.
    (John 6:62) . . .What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before?
    (Acts 2:32-35) 32 God resurrected this Jesus, and of this we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore, because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’

    Is that enough, or do you need more?
    Do you have something regarding what the Bible actually says?
     
    #51 nPeace, Apr 3, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    14,649
    Ratings:
    +8,293
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Jesus himself often spoke of the high position that he had held in heaven. Once he prayed: “Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.” (John 17:5)

    He also said to his listeners: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above.” (John 8:23)

    He told Nicodemus..."Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man." (John 3:13)

    Paul wrote...."But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent his Son, who was born of a woman and who was under law". (Galatians 4:4)

    Jesus was "the" Son of God, in heaven before he was sent to redeem mankind....."the firstborn of all creation"(Colossians 1:15) He is "the image" of his Father but he is not God......he is God's "only begotten son".....but certainly NOT the only son of God. Even Adam was a "son of God" (Luke 3:38) by virtue of the fact that he was a direct creation of God.....as all "sons of God" are.

    Those who will rule with Christ in heaven will be "adopted" as God's "sons" and given a "new birth".....as spirit beings who will live in the spirit realm as part of God's heavenly Kingdom.

    Ascending to heaven is exactly what he did, (as the NWT says) but he promised his apostles that he was going away to prepare a place for them in heaven.....

    John 14:2-3...
    "In the house of my Father are many dwelling places. Otherwise, I would have told you, for I am going my way to prepare a place for you. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be."

    When Jesus said that he had not yet ascended to his God and Father, it is obvious that the Father is still his God, even in heaven....
    Revelation 3:14...recorded well after Jesus' returned to heaven, says....
    "The one who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name."

    How can God have a God?....or the Son be his own Father? What nonsense!

    Jesus said he was going away to prepare a place in his Father's house for his disciples....and that he would return to take them...."home". What has the word "return" got to do with anything that fights with that simple statement? He had to ascend back to heaven to fulfill his promise.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  13. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    4,027
    Ratings:
    +757
    Religion:
    Christian
    I asked about the signs of the parousia before I saw the answer a few posts down.
    I did not miss post 2 but thought I would find out what had been going on since I was not here.
     
  14. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    4,027
    Ratings:
    +757
    Religion:
    Christian
    How is that evidence that Jesus began His rule as King?
     
  15. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    4,027
    Ratings:
    +757
    Religion:
    Christian
    Preaching the good news of the Kingdom is important work. You are misstating my concerns however.
    For a start it is Jesus who sends people out into the harvest fields. The WT has made it a command of theirs that all JWs go out and do it as they tell them to do it. Anyone who does not want to do that can be kicked out of the JWs. The unforgivable sin for the WT seems to be not going from door to door. But no it is more than that, if anyone disagrees with the teachings of the WT that person can be kicked out of the organisation and lose their chance at eternal life, anyone who disobeys the man made commands of the WT can suffer the same fate.
    This is the way a control freak does the job of being the shepherd of the flock.
    Matt 20: 25 But Jesus called them aside and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them. 26 It shall not be this way among you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,…

    Jesus has the Body of Christ, the Church, on earth today and it is led by the Spirit of God in what it does. There are various organisations which foster the work of preaching but not all members of the Body have the same task of preaching. It is as directed by Jesus, the head of the body. That is the way the Body of Christ operates.

    I'm not sure what the scriptures quoted have to do with the question.

    I use the Bible and am a member of an organisation with members who try to obey the Lord.



    What I gave is some of the things that the WT commands it's members to do and not to do,,,,,,,,,,,,and these things must be obeyed to be a JW. That is "lording it over" the congregation. That is the way of the world.
    It's not just in things JWs must and must not do but in what they believe that the WT is the boss. In these things it is not the Bible that the JWs are obeying but an organisation that they believe is the only organisation representing God on earth today.
    Who says it is the only organisation? Only the WT says that.
    Why believe them when they keep changing their teachings and in that they show they are not being led by the Spirit of God?
     
  16. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    9,483
    Ratings:
    +2,829
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    I don't know, about you, but when I want to find out what's going on in a thread, I read the OP, and then read through the comments.

    Perhaps if you read the previous posts, you would get the connection.

    So you are saying that Jesus has not sent the ones who come at your door preaching the message of the good news of God's kingdom, and endeavoring to teach, and make disciples, and their associates who preach likewise throughout the world, along with all of the Governing Body?
    Are you saying that a person is kicked out of the organization for not preaching? Please provide a reference supporting that claim.

    There are indeed many organization, but that does not make them the Body of Christ.
    What makes an organization the body of Christ?

    Did you not claim... Quote It is not the Spirit of God at work but a group of men with a whip.
    Be united in what WE say, obey what WE tell you to, go out from door to door, etc etc or you are out and you only have salvation in us, nowhere else, and when you are out you will lose family and friends as much as we can make that happen. But we do it because we love you.
    Unquote

    What were you trying to say about losing family and friends?
    Maybe I misunderstood you. Please clarify.

    You try to obey the Lord? That's a good thing, isn't it. May I ask in what?
    Why do you believe that you are not to obey the Lord in the command he gave to his disciples at Matthew 28:19, 20, and why do you think that you are exempt from being a part of Matthew 24:14, and Romans 10:13-15? Why do you think this work does not apply to you?

    You say JWs lord it over their members, but only you say that - when I say you, I am using it in the same way you are, when you say only JWs say..., because we know that it is not only JWs that say what they say, and I know others say what you say, but we are conversing.

    There are many non- JWs who do not agree with you, that the body of overseers of JWs lord it over the flock. So this is your opinion.
    Otherwise please provide scripture to show that JWs lord it over anyone.
    Remember, we are not discussing your opinions and beliefs, but the Bible.

    According to the scriptures, there is only one body of Christ, There is only one faith. There is only one faithful and discrete slave. There is only one truth.
    Do you disagree with this?

    Therefore, it is not JWs alone that says this.
    JWs are the only organization on earth that the identifying marks I mentioned earlier apply to, or fit.
    Ill put it here again, because you seem to have either missed some questions, or evaded them.

    Jesus is the one who instructed us in the method - Matthew 9:35-38 ; Luke 8:1 ; 10:1, 2 ; Romans 10:13-15, the message (the kingdom of God), the territory (all the nations of the earth), and the duration (until the end of the world, before the end comes).
    Therefore, questions: how is it you say, these are commands of men? Did I misquote a scriptural text? Which command did we alter? Please state.

    Questions: Do you believe that God has an organization on earth?
    Then would Jesus not be the one running that organization? Would that organization not be the one carrying out the commands and the work the Lord Jesus started, and ordered his followers to continue?

    Jehovah's witnesses are obeying the orders of Jesus Christ. Is that not so?
    1. They preach and teach about the kingdom to every tribe and nation throughout the earth.
    2. They follow Jesus example in his method of organizing in twos (two by two) those sent out to preach.
    3. They go to the homes of people, and stay in the homes of those who show interest - teaching them, and making disciples... baptizing them. Those in turn become disciples - followers of Christ.
    4. They do this urgently, and continually.
      (2 Timothy 4:2) . . .Preach the word; be at it urgently in favorable times and difficult times; reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all patience and art of teaching.

    Question: Which one of these, is a commandment of men, and not from the lord Jesus Christ?
    Another question: Apart from Jehovah's Witnesses, which organization on earth do you know of that does these things, or compares?

    Please answer the questions. A dialog between two persons, at time involves question which helps it progress productively. These are important to any further conversation.

    Regarding the changes, that has been covered. If you are still hung up on that, you'll have to deal with the post that deals with that.
    Did you miss it? Just go back and take your time.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  17. Pete in Panama

    Pete in Panama Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2019
    Messages:
    341
    Ratings:
    +144
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    My suggestion is that u & I study together. I think a lot of good can come from it. If you honestly don't think that any good can from our joint study then we can part friends. If you are willing to give it a try then let's look together & see what we see together.
    It's what I was saying back in my post #8 --
    -- that I'd hit it off great before & we hit a snag on the Christ's reference (in Matthew 24 apparently, verse 15)--
    --& I thought it'd be convenient to take of where'd stopped the last time. My hope was that this would be acceptable to you, if so let's go for it & if not we'll think about it.
     
  18. Pete in Panama

    Pete in Panama Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2019
    Messages:
    341
    Ratings:
    +144
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Say, if y'all want to join in the discussion that nPeace & I are into ur more than welcome. What I was saying above--
    --might work out better if u could help me out if there was something I was trying to say but was not finding the right words.
     
  19. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    9,483
    Ratings:
    +2,829
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    @Pete in Panama you are free to look through the thread at what I posted. You likely missed a lot, but it covers everything we were discussing. I didn't leave any gaps. Take a look, and let me know what you find.
     
  20. Pete in Panama

    Pete in Panama Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2019
    Messages:
    341
    Ratings:
    +144
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    My hope is that we can follow Christ's instruction together. If you want to talk about it then super! If not I'll thank you & we can be on our way. Whatever u say is fine w/ me. How about u @Deeje?
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...