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JWs & The Bible

John1.12

Free gift
Don't abuse the funny rating. It's against the rules of the Rf forums. Okay.

Seems you are not here to discuss what the Bible says, though.

The Bible says God raised Jesus. nowhere does it say, Jesus raised himself.
If you misunderstand what jesus said to the wicked Pharisees, it may be good reason for that.
//nowhere does it say, Jesus raised himself//
Its better than that . John 2 .19 . Jesus is telling them before it even happens, way over in chapter 2 ahead of time that HE will raise his own body( ,prediction) ( remember im not saying ' alone ') So yes we have a verse that says so . For some reason your glossing over it ,as if its not really there ?
 

John1.12

Free gift
Don't abuse the funny rating. It's against the rules of the Rf forums. Okay.

Seems you are not here to discuss what the Bible says, though.

The Bible says God raised Jesus. nowhere does it say, Jesus raised himself.
If you misunderstand what jesus said to the wicked Pharisees, it may be good reason for that.
I used the ' funny ' appropriately , because after I made a comment ( jokingly) about how the Jw s get round theses verses I genuinely laughed out loud, because your answer was the same.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Jesus is literally telling them what's about to happen. That he will raise his body after 3 days .He's telling them the very thing we are discussing. In the same book ..About the same event . I'm not going off into a different book .
You started off by saying, you believe that Jesus was raised with the same body. Isn't that true?
You said we teach something I never heard taught by JWs, and you said that these are "just a few of their beliefs that don't line up with the bible."

So, we did not start with any particular scripture. You picked one, which you claim supports your belief.
I chose several. So to claim that your chosen scripture alone is what we must only look at, is... what would you call that?
I don't know what to call it, but it can't be good.

The other thing is, you are well aware, I was hoping you were, at least, that all scripture is inspired of God, and beneficial for setting things straight. Which means we must look at the scriptures to understand what is being taught.
One who isn't interested in doing so, is not serious about the Bible. They are also unreasonable. Would you agree?

For example, say someone lust took Matthew 18:8, 9
8 If, then, your hand or your foot makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it away from you. It is better for you to enter into life maimed or lame than to be thrown with two hands or two feet into the everlasting fire. 9 Also, if your eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it away from you. It is better for you to enter one-eyed into life than to be thrown with two eyes into the fiery Gehenna.

...and says, I am sticking to this scripture. Jesus said cut your hand off, and tear out your eye.
That person is unreasonable and not worth our time, because they are not serious about the Bible.
Is this not the position you are taking?

The scriptures refute your claims, by showing that the seed gets a new body. It is never the same as what is sown, and dies.
The body must die, the person is raised a new body.
That's how it works.

The scriptures also show that Jesus did not appear in the same body.
When Mary saw him, up close and personal, she did not recognize him.
When she grabbed hold of him, there is no indication in scripture to suggest that his body was shredded or pierced.

Likewise, on the beach; On the road to Jerusalem; In the locked room; He was not recognized by any piercing.
Only doubtful Thomas required seeing piercings, and the next time Jesus appeared, piercings were seen.

The other thing is, the scriptures say Jesus was a human, and he died a human - put to death in the flesh, made alive in the spirit.
All these are in harmony with scripture, and are in agreement with what JWs teach.

What Jesus said, has nothing to do with what we believe, does it. It is a matter of what the Bible says happened, or what the Bible says is the case,
Remember when Jesus said the following ...
(John 6:51-66)
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and for a fact, the bread that I will give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.” 52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying: “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53 So Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day; 55 for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. It is not as when your forefathers ate and yet died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said these things as he was teaching in a synagogue in Capernaum.

[What was the response?]
60 When they heard this, many of his disciples said: “This speech is shocking; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were murmuring about this, said to them: “Does this stumble you? 62 What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that is life-giving; the flesh is of no use at all. The sayings that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning those who did not believe and the one who would betray him. 65 He went on to say: “This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” 66 Because of this, many of his disciples went off to the things behind and would no longer walk with him.

Jesus never explained to his enemies, or those with one foot in and one foot out, what he meant, because it tested their motive, or genuineness.
Right now, your genuineness is under test.
Will you keep holding what Jesus said to mean what you want it to mean even when what you think it meant disagrees with scripture?
That's up to you. The disciples who left, went away thinking that Jesus wanted them to eat him. :smile:

Jesus did not, and could not raise himself, as he was powerless to do so, in death.
Just as eating his literal flesh would not have granted anyone life. Nor cutting off your literal hand.

Yes I have shown that Jesus is saying its his same body. Different in certain ways but the same body he had when he died .,same holes, same scars . There is no verse that says the body was dissolved, hidden, made invisible, stolen, hired out for fancy dress or such nonsense.
You have not shown that. You just claimed it.
Right. No verse says the body was hidden by God. I don't need to go there.

Just remember you said this. Which no verse ever says such a thing ..Then I would ask where did you get this from? Because no where does the text say so .
The Bible does not say Jesus used different bodies, is true, but it does say he was raised spirit, and it doesn't say he was raised in the same body either.

//nowhere does it say, Jesus raised himself//
Its better than that . John 2 .19 . Jesus is telling them before it even happens, way over in chapter 2 ahead of time that HE will raise his own body( ,prediction) ( remember im not saying ' alone ') So yes we have a verse that says so . For some reason your glossing over it ,as if its not really there ?
No scripture says Jesus raised himself.
One should ignore such claims, as the scripture tell us in no uncertain terms, that God raised Jesus from the dead.
It also tells us that Jesus died, so he was not alive to do anything.
Which is in harmony with the scriptures, which describes death as a state of inactivity, and unconsciousness.

I used the ' funny ' appropriately , because after I made a comment ( jokingly) about how the Jw s get round theses verses I genuinely laughed out loud, because your answer was the same.
What I said was serious. It was not a joke, nor meant to be.
I don't mind if you find it funny, and by all means, I welcome your expressing it.
However, the RF rules consider using the funny rating on a post not meant to be funny, abusing it.
I'm just informing you, in case you don't know. I didn't know before either, but I found out. ;)
If you want to lol, you can try this... :laughing: I like that one :laughing: Or, is that not dramatic enough? ;)
 

John1.12

Free gift
You started off by saying, you believe that Jesus was raised with the same body. Isn't that true?
You said we teach something I never heard taught by JWs, and you said that these are "just a few of their beliefs that don't line up with the bible."

So, we did not start with any particular scripture. You picked one, which you claim supports your belief.
I chose several. So to claim that your chosen scripture alone is what we must only look at, is... what would you call that?
I don't know what to call it, but it can't be good.

The other thing is, you are well aware, I was hoping you were, at least, that all scripture is inspired of God, and beneficial for setting things straight. Which means we must look at the scriptures to understand what is being taught.
One who isn't interested in doing so, is not serious about the Bible. They are also unreasonable. Would you agree?

For example, say someone lust took Matthew 18:8, 9
8 If, then, your hand or your foot makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it away from you. It is better for you to enter into life maimed or lame than to be thrown with two hands or two feet into the everlasting fire. 9 Also, if your eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it away from you. It is better for you to enter one-eyed into life than to be thrown with two eyes into the fiery Gehenna.

...and says, I am sticking to this scripture. Jesus said cut your hand off, and tear out your eye.
That person is unreasonable and not worth our time, because they are not serious about the Bible.
Is this not the position you are taking?

The scriptures refute your claims, by showing that the seed gets a new body. It is never the same as what is sown, and dies.
The body must die, the person is raised a new body.
That's how it works.

The scriptures also show that Jesus did not appear in the same body.
When Mary saw him, up close and personal, she did not recognize him.
When she grabbed hold of him, there is no indication in scripture to suggest that his body was shredded or pierced.

Likewise, on the beach; On the road to Jerusalem; In the locked room; He was not recognized by any piercing.
Only doubtful Thomas required seeing piercings, and the next time Jesus appeared, piercings were seen.

The other thing is, the scriptures say Jesus was a human, and he died a human - put to death in the flesh, made alive in the spirit.
All these are in harmony with scripture, and are in agreement with what JWs teach.

What Jesus said, has nothing to do with what we believe, does it. It is a matter of what the Bible says happened, or what the Bible says is the case,
Remember when Jesus said the following ...
(John 6:51-66)
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and for a fact, the bread that I will give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.” 52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying: “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53 So Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day; 55 for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. It is not as when your forefathers ate and yet died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said these things as he was teaching in a synagogue in Capernaum.

[What was the response?]
60 When they heard this, many of his disciples said: “This speech is shocking; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were murmuring about this, said to them: “Does this stumble you? 62 What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that is life-giving; the flesh is of no use at all. The sayings that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning those who did not believe and the one who would betray him. 65 He went on to say: “This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” 66 Because of this, many of his disciples went off to the things behind and would no longer walk with him.

Jesus never explained to his enemies, or those with one foot in and one foot out, what he meant, because it tested their motive, or genuineness.
Right now, your genuineness is under test.
Will you keep holding what Jesus said to mean what you want it to mean even when what you think it meant disagrees with scripture?
That's up to you. The disciples who left, went away thinking that Jesus wanted them to eat him. :smile:

Jesus did not, and could not raise himself, as he was powerless to do so, in death.
Just as eating his literal flesh would not have granted anyone life. Nor cutting off your literal hand.


You have not shown that. You just claimed it.
Right. No verse says the body was hidden by God. I don't need to go there.


The Bible does not say Jesus used different bodies, is true, but it does say he was raised spirit, and it doesn't say he was raised in the same body either.


No scripture says Jesus raised himself.
One should ignore such claims, as the scripture tell us in no uncertain terms, that God raised Jesus from the dead.
It also tells us that Jesus died, so he was not alive to do anything.
Which is in harmony with the scriptures, which describes death as a state of inactivity, and unconsciousness.


What I said was serious. It was not a joke, nor meant to be.
I don't mind if you find it funny, and by all means, I welcome your expressing it.
However, the RF rules consider using the funny rating on a post not meant to be funny, abusing it.
I'm just informing you, in case you don't know. I didn't know before either, but I found out. ;)
If you want to lol, you can try this... :laughing: I like that one :laughing: Or, is that not dramatic enough? ;)
//No scripture says Jesus raised himself// But we have a verse prior to the cross that literally says he will raise himself . Jesus own words ,not mine . You can choose to ignore that verse as if God didn't inspire it ,but I all Scripture is God breathed. Nothing is said for the sake of it .
 

John1.12

Free gift
You started off by saying, you believe that Jesus was raised with the same body. Isn't that true?
You said we teach something I never heard taught by JWs, and you said that these are "just a few of their beliefs that don't line up with the bible."

So, we did not start with any particular scripture. You picked one, which you claim supports your belief.
I chose several. So to claim that your chosen scripture alone is what we must only look at, is... what would you call that?
I don't know what to call it, but it can't be good.

The other thing is, you are well aware, I was hoping you were, at least, that all scripture is inspired of God, and beneficial for setting things straight. Which means we must look at the scriptures to understand what is being taught.
One who isn't interested in doing so, is not serious about the Bible. They are also unreasonable. Would you agree?

For example, say someone lust took Matthew 18:8, 9
8 If, then, your hand or your foot makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it away from you. It is better for you to enter into life maimed or lame than to be thrown with two hands or two feet into the everlasting fire. 9 Also, if your eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it away from you. It is better for you to enter one-eyed into life than to be thrown with two eyes into the fiery Gehenna.

...and says, I am sticking to this scripture. Jesus said cut your hand off, and tear out your eye.
That person is unreasonable and not worth our time, because they are not serious about the Bible.
Is this not the position you are taking?

The scriptures refute your claims, by showing that the seed gets a new body. It is never the same as what is sown, and dies.
The body must die, the person is raised a new body.
That's how it works.

The scriptures also show that Jesus did not appear in the same body.
When Mary saw him, up close and personal, she did not recognize him.
When she grabbed hold of him, there is no indication in scripture to suggest that his body was shredded or pierced.

Likewise, on the beach; On the road to Jerusalem; In the locked room; He was not recognized by any piercing.
Only doubtful Thomas required seeing piercings, and the next time Jesus appeared, piercings were seen.

The other thing is, the scriptures say Jesus was a human, and he died a human - put to death in the flesh, made alive in the spirit.
All these are in harmony with scripture, and are in agreement with what JWs teach.

What Jesus said, has nothing to do with what we believe, does it. It is a matter of what the Bible says happened, or what the Bible says is the case,
Remember when Jesus said the following ...
(John 6:51-66)
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and for a fact, the bread that I will give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.” 52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying: “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53 So Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day; 55 for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. It is not as when your forefathers ate and yet died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said these things as he was teaching in a synagogue in Capernaum.

[What was the response?]
60 When they heard this, many of his disciples said: “This speech is shocking; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were murmuring about this, said to them: “Does this stumble you? 62 What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that is life-giving; the flesh is of no use at all. The sayings that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning those who did not believe and the one who would betray him. 65 He went on to say: “This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” 66 Because of this, many of his disciples went off to the things behind and would no longer walk with him.

Jesus never explained to his enemies, or those with one foot in and one foot out, what he meant, because it tested their motive, or genuineness.
Right now, your genuineness is under test.
Will you keep holding what Jesus said to mean what you want it to mean even when what you think it meant disagrees with scripture?
That's up to you. The disciples who left, went away thinking that Jesus wanted them to eat him. :smile:

Jesus did not, and could not raise himself, as he was powerless to do so, in death.
Just as eating his literal flesh would not have granted anyone life. Nor cutting off your literal hand.


You have not shown that. You just claimed it.
Right. No verse says the body was hidden by God. I don't need to go there.


The Bible does not say Jesus used different bodies, is true, but it does say he was raised spirit, and it doesn't say he was raised in the same body either.


No scripture says Jesus raised himself.
One should ignore such claims, as the scripture tell us in no uncertain terms, that God raised Jesus from the dead.
It also tells us that Jesus died, so he was not alive to do anything.
Which is in harmony with the scriptures, which describes death as a state of inactivity, and unconsciousness.


What I said was serious. It was not a joke, nor meant to be.
I don't mind if you find it funny, and by all means, I welcome your expressing it.
However, the RF rules consider using the funny rating on a post not meant to be funny, abusing it.
I'm just informing you, in case you don't know. I didn't know before either, but I found out. ;)
If you want to lol, you can try this... :laughing: I like that one :laughing: Or, is that not dramatic enough? ;)
My point was the Author ( John ) inspired by God to write in a specific context ,at a specific time ,about specific things in context ,within the same timeline , the same theme of the entire book. All of what is Written has one interpretation. The one the Author intended. It makes sense to discover the who ,what ,when ,why and where of the book ,the chapter and the verse first ,then from that we press on with this in mind for each book as we go .
 

tigger2

Active Member
//No scripture says Jesus raised himself// But we have a verse prior to the cross that literally says he will raise himself . Jesus own words ,not mine . You can choose to ignore that verse as if God didn't inspire it ,but I all Scripture is God breathed. Nothing is said for the sake of it .
................................

An examination of all the passages dealing with Christ’s resurrection shows God raised his Son from death. Therefore, when we see “God, having raised up his servant” (Acts 3:26, RSV), we understand God as being one person who raised up someone else (His servant, Jesus). And at Gal. 1:1 we see - “God the Father, who raised [Jesus Christ] from the dead.”

The noted trinitarian NT Greek expert Dr. Alfred Marshall writes:
“our Lord ‘was raised’ as are the dead generally (they do not ‘rise’). See 1 Corinthians ch. 15, etc.” - p. xxxvi, The Zondervan Parallel New Testament in Greek and English, 1980.

We also see at Eph. 1:17, 19, 20 -
“that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of Glory ..., according to the working of his great might which he accomplished in Christ when he raised him from the dead and made him sit at his right hand [cf. Ps. 110:1, 2; Acts 2:34-36; and Ro. 8:34] in the heavenly places” - RSV.

And 1 Thess. 1:9, 10 -
“how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God [John 17:3] and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus” - RSV. Also see Acts 10:40; 13:30, 33, 34, 37; Ro. 4:24; 6:4; 8:11; 10:9; 1 Cor. 6:14; 2 Cor. 4:14; Col. 2:12; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 1:20; 1 Peter 1:21; etc.

Probably the only place you could find where there appears to be a statement that the Son raised himself (in contrast to the many scriptures to the contrary) would be John 2:19-22.

John 2:19, 21, 22 -
“Jesus answered them, ‘Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.’ .... But he spoke of the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised [not ‘he raised himself’] from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this.” - RSV.

Rather than ignoring this scripture, since at first glance it seems to contradict all the many others about Jesus being raised up by the Father alone, we should make every attempt to understand it in agreement with the other scriptures on the subject.

Obviously Jesus was speaking figuratively here, whereas the other scriptures concerning his being raised are to be understood literally. Figurative Bible language often leads to difficulties in interpretation.

However, Jesus was speaking figuratively of his actual body which his enemies really did destroy (“destroy this temple and ...”).

Therefore, one understanding might be that Jesus was merely stating that after the Father had already returned Jesus’ life to a body (“raised” him to life) Jesus was then physically able to raise up that living body: He literally was able to raise himself to his feet again; he raised his own body up from a prone position!

Another possibility could be that because of his perfect faithfulness and obedience to God, Jesus himself provided the moral basis for the Father to raise him from the dead. It might be said that, in a sense, because of his faithful course in life, Jesus himself was responsible for God’s resurrection of him.

A similar style of expression may be seen at Luke 8:48 when Jesus had healed a woman he said to her: “Your faith has made you well.” Did she actually heal herself, then? No; it was power from God the Father through Christ that healed her because of her faith!

Even noted trinitarian NT Greek scholar A. T. Robertson tells us
“Recall [John] 2:19 where Jesus said: ‘And in three days I will raise it up.’ He did not mean that he will raise himself independently of the Father as the active agent (Rom. 8:11).” - Word Pictures in the New Testament, Vol. v, p. 183.

Whatever the answer to any possible confusion generated from this single figurative usage at John 2:19, we must not ignore the overwhelming number of literal statements which clearly state that the Father alone actually raised Jesus to life.
 

John1.12

Free gift
................................

An examination of all the passages dealing with Christ’s resurrection shows God raised his Son from death. Therefore, when we see “God, having raised up his servant” (Acts 3:26, RSV), we understand God as being one person who raised up someone else (His servant, Jesus). And at Gal. 1:1 we see - “God the Father, who raised [Jesus Christ] from the dead.”

The noted trinitarian NT Greek expert Dr. Alfred Marshall writes:
“our Lord ‘was raised’ as are the dead generally (they do not ‘rise’). See 1 Corinthians ch. 15, etc.” - p. xxxvi, The Zondervan Parallel New Testament in Greek and English, 1980.

We also see at Eph. 1:17, 19, 20 -
“that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of Glory ..., according to the working of his great might which he accomplished in Christ when he raised him from the dead and made him sit at his right hand [cf. Ps. 110:1, 2; Acts 2:34-36; and Ro. 8:34] in the heavenly places” - RSV.

And 1 Thess. 1:9, 10 -
“how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God [John 17:3] and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus” - RSV. Also see Acts 10:40; 13:30, 33, 34, 37; Ro. 4:24; 6:4; 8:11; 10:9; 1 Cor. 6:14; 2 Cor. 4:14; Col. 2:12; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 1:20; 1 Peter 1:21; etc.

Probably the only place you could find where there appears to be a statement that the Son raised himself (in contrast to the many scriptures to the contrary) would be John 2:19-22.

John 2:19, 21, 22 -
“Jesus answered them, ‘Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.’ .... But he spoke of the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised [not ‘he raised himself’] from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this.” - RSV.

Rather than ignoring this scripture, since at first glance it seems to contradict all the many others about Jesus being raised up by the Father alone, we should make every attempt to understand it in agreement with the other scriptures on the subject.

Obviously Jesus was speaking figuratively here, whereas the other scriptures concerning his being raised are to be understood literally. Figurative Bible language often leads to difficulties in interpretation.

However, Jesus was speaking figuratively of his actual body which his enemies really did destroy (“destroy this temple and ...”).

Therefore, one understanding might be that Jesus was merely stating that after the Father had already returned Jesus’ life to a body (“raised” him to life) Jesus was then physically able to raise up that living body: He literally was able to raise himself to his feet again; he raised his own body up from a prone position!

Another possibility could be that because of his perfect faithfulness and obedience to God, Jesus himself provided the moral basis for the Father to raise him from the dead. It might be said that, in a sense, because of his faithful course in life, Jesus himself was responsible for God’s resurrection of him.

A similar style of expression may be seen at Luke 8:48 when Jesus had healed a woman he said to her: “Your faith has made you well.” Did she actually heal herself, then? No; it was power from God the Father through Christ that healed her because of her faith!

Even noted trinitarian NT Greek scholar A. T. Robertson tells us
“Recall [John] 2:19 where Jesus said: ‘And in three days I will raise it up.’ He did not mean that he will raise himself independently of the Father as the active agent (Rom. 8:11).” - Word Pictures in the New Testament, Vol. v, p. 183.

Whatever the answer to any possible confusion generated from this single figurative usage at John 2:19, we must not ignore the overwhelming number of literal statements which clearly state that the Father alone actually raised Jesus to life.
Why did Jesus say He would raise his body ? He would have been perfectly able to say 19¶Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will be raised up .
But thats not what he says . Jesus was perfectly capable of Raising himself from the dead .
It’s true that the New Testament teaches that God the Father raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 6:4; Acts 2:32). But it is also true that Jesus himself was acting to bring about his own resurrection. We know this because he said in John 10:18, “No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” God the Father gave Jesus the authority to take up his life again from the grave where his body lay dead.

Here it is again in John 5:21–22: “As the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. For the Father . . . has given all judgment to the Son.” So the Son has authority to raise from the dead whomever he will, including himself. So Jesus says in John 2:19: “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” And John adds, “He was speaking about the temple of his body” (John 2:21). Destroy this body, and in three days, I will raise it up. And he did.

Why is it important to remember that Jesus raised not just the widow’s son, and the ruler’s daughter, and Lazarus from the dead, but also himself with the authority of God the Father? It’s important because the sting of death was not removed by the raising of Lazarus, or the ruler’s daughter, or the widow’s son. The sting of death was removed by the resurrection of Jesus. None of the other resurrections, none of the other miracles of healing or exorcisms or multiplied loaves and fish, or stilled waves and wind — none of them would do us any good if Jesus had not raised himself from the dead by the authority of his Father. The fact that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead after four days would have done no good whatsoever, if Jesus had not raised Jesus from the dead.
 
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John1.12

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................................

An examination of all the passages dealing with Christ’s resurrection shows God raised his Son from death. Therefore, when we see “God, having raised up his servant” (Acts 3:26, RSV), we understand God as being one person who raised up someone else (His servant, Jesus). And at Gal. 1:1 we see - “God the Father, who raised [Jesus Christ] from the dead.”

The noted trinitarian NT Greek expert Dr. Alfred Marshall writes:
“our Lord ‘was raised’ as are the dead generally (they do not ‘rise’). See 1 Corinthians ch. 15, etc.” - p. xxxvi, The Zondervan Parallel New Testament in Greek and English, 1980.

We also see at Eph. 1:17, 19, 20 -
“that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of Glory ..., according to the working of his great might which he accomplished in Christ when he raised him from the dead and made him sit at his right hand [cf. Ps. 110:1, 2; Acts 2:34-36; and Ro. 8:34] in the heavenly places” - RSV.

And 1 Thess. 1:9, 10 -
“how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God [John 17:3] and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus” - RSV. Also see Acts 10:40; 13:30, 33, 34, 37; Ro. 4:24; 6:4; 8:11; 10:9; 1 Cor. 6:14; 2 Cor. 4:14; Col. 2:12; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 1:20; 1 Peter 1:21; etc.

Probably the only place you could find where there appears to be a statement that the Son raised himself (in contrast to the many scriptures to the contrary) would be John 2:19-22.

John 2:19, 21, 22 -
“Jesus answered them, ‘Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.’ .... But he spoke of the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised [not ‘he raised himself’] from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this.” - RSV.

Rather than ignoring this scripture, since at first glance it seems to contradict all the many others about Jesus being raised up by the Father alone, we should make every attempt to understand it in agreement with the other scriptures on the subject.

Obviously Jesus was speaking figuratively here, whereas the other scriptures concerning his being raised are to be understood literally. Figurative Bible language often leads to difficulties in interpretation.

However, Jesus was speaking figuratively of his actual body which his enemies really did destroy (“destroy this temple and ...”).

Therefore, one understanding might be that Jesus was merely stating that after the Father had already returned Jesus’ life to a body (“raised” him to life) Jesus was then physically able to raise up that living body: He literally was able to raise himself to his feet again; he raised his own body up from a prone position!

Another possibility could be that because of his perfect faithfulness and obedience to God, Jesus himself provided the moral basis for the Father to raise him from the dead. It might be said that, in a sense, because of his faithful course in life, Jesus himself was responsible for God’s resurrection of him.

A similar style of expression may be seen at Luke 8:48 when Jesus had healed a woman he said to her: “Your faith has made you well.” Did she actually heal herself, then? No; it was power from God the Father through Christ that healed her because of her faith!

Even noted trinitarian NT Greek scholar A. T. Robertson tells us
“Recall [John] 2:19 where Jesus said: ‘And in three days I will raise it up.’ He did not mean that he will raise himself independently of the Father as the active agent (Rom. 8:11).” - Word Pictures in the New Testament, Vol. v, p. 183.

Whatever the answer to any possible confusion generated from this single figurative usage at John 2:19, we must not ignore the overwhelming number of literal statements which clearly state that the Father alone actually raised Jesus to life.
//Even noted trinitarian NT Greek scholar A. T. Robertson tells us// Appeal to authorities aside .There is no need ,as were all looking at the same text , in English ( translated just fine )
I never said ' alone ' All three are active in many areas of scripture .
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
................................

An examination of all the passages dealing with Christ’s resurrection shows God raised his Son from death. Therefore, when we see “God, having raised up his servant” (Acts 3:26, RSV), we understand God as being one person who raised up someone else (His servant, Jesus). And at Gal. 1:1 we see - “God the Father, who raised [Jesus Christ] from the dead.”

The noted trinitarian NT Greek expert Dr. Alfred Marshall writes:
“our Lord ‘was raised’ as are the dead generally (they do not ‘rise’). See 1 Corinthians ch. 15, etc.” - p. xxxvi, The Zondervan Parallel New Testament in Greek and English, 1980.

We also see at Eph. 1:17, 19, 20 -
“that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of Glory ..., according to the working of his great might which he accomplished in Christ when he raised him from the dead and made him sit at his right hand [cf. Ps. 110:1, 2; Acts 2:34-36; and Ro. 8:34] in the heavenly places” - RSV.

And 1 Thess. 1:9, 10 -
“how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God [John 17:3] and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus” - RSV. Also see Acts 10:40; 13:30, 33, 34, 37; Ro. 4:24; 6:4; 8:11; 10:9; 1 Cor. 6:14; 2 Cor. 4:14; Col. 2:12; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 1:20; 1 Peter 1:21; etc.

Probably the only place you could find where there appears to be a statement that the Son raised himself (in contrast to the many scriptures to the contrary) would be John 2:19-22.

John 2:19, 21, 22 -
“Jesus answered them, ‘Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.’ .... But he spoke of the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised [not ‘he raised himself’] from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this.” - RSV.

Rather than ignoring this scripture, since at first glance it seems to contradict all the many others about Jesus being raised up by the Father alone, we should make every attempt to understand it in agreement with the other scriptures on the subject.

Obviously Jesus was speaking figuratively here, whereas the other scriptures concerning his being raised are to be understood literally. Figurative Bible language often leads to difficulties in interpretation.

However, Jesus was speaking figuratively of his actual body which his enemies really did destroy (“destroy this temple and ...”).

Therefore, one understanding might be that Jesus was merely stating that after the Father had already returned Jesus’ life to a body (“raised” him to life) Jesus was then physically able to raise up that living body: He literally was able to raise himself to his feet again; he raised his own body up from a prone position!

Another possibility could be that because of his perfect faithfulness and obedience to God, Jesus himself provided the moral basis for the Father to raise him from the dead. It might be said that, in a sense, because of his faithful course in life, Jesus himself was responsible for God’s resurrection of him.

A similar style of expression may be seen at Luke 8:48 when Jesus had healed a woman he said to her: “Your faith has made you well.” Did she actually heal herself, then? No; it was power from God the Father through Christ that healed her because of her faith!

Even noted trinitarian NT Greek scholar A. T. Robertson tells us
“Recall [John] 2:19 where Jesus said: ‘And in three days I will raise it up.’ He did not mean that he will raise himself independently of the Father as the active agent (Rom. 8:11).” - Word Pictures in the New Testament, Vol. v, p. 183.

Whatever the answer to any possible confusion generated from this single figurative usage at John 2:19, we must not ignore the overwhelming number of literal statements which clearly state that the Father alone actually raised Jesus to life.

John 2:18 The Jews then responded to him, “What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?”
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”
20 They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

Even in verse 20 John said "After he was raised from the dead........"
So you might be right about it meaning that Jesus stood up in His body when brought back to life.
The main point of the passage however when it comes to JW doctrine is that Jesus said that it was going to be the temple (body) that was destroyed which would be raised.
John realised that Jesus was talking about the temple of His body after the resurrection, so it must have been the same body.
This also can be seen in such passages as this next one.
Matt 28:5 But the angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6 He is not here; He has risen, just as He said! Come, see the place where He lay.

Nothing in the rest of the New Testament contradicts the fact that Jesus the man came back to life in the same body, albeit a glorified, immortal and incorruptible body after the resurrection.
What JWs do is to twist the meaning of other passages to make it look as if JW doctrine is correct and that John 2:18-20 and Matt 28:5,6 are not true.

This goes the same for Christians when they are raised:
Romans 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. 23 Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved;
 

tigger2

Active Member
Mathew 28:6 uses the Greek word ἠγέρθη which can be translated either as "he was raised up" or "he has risen." See Mounce; NAB; NRSV; ISV; GW; etc.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
//No scripture says Jesus raised himself// But we have a verse prior to the cross that literally says he will raise himself . Jesus own words ,not mine . You can choose to ignore that verse as if God didn't inspire it ,but I all Scripture is God breathed. Nothing is said for the sake of it .
Please explain why you say the verse says he will literally raise himself.
Did Jesus also say to literally cut off your hand, and tear out your eye? Did he also say to literally eat his body?

Yes, he literally said these things. Does it mean there is a literal application to them?

Could you answer the questions reasonably, rather than repeat what you believe. Thanks.


My point was the Author ( John ) inspired by God to write in a specific context ,at a specific time ,about specific things in context ,within the same timeline , the same theme of the entire book. All of what is Written has one interpretation. The one the Author intended. It makes sense to discover the who ,what ,when ,why and where of the book ,the chapter and the verse first ,then from that we press on with this in mind for each book as we go .
Not sure what you are trying to say here.
What Jesus said and did, is what the writers recorded.
The writers are not interpreting what Jesus said.

So what I would like to know...
Do you agree that God raised Jesus from the dead?
Do you agree that there is no scripture that says Jesus raised himself from the dead?
Do you agree that what Jesus said, can be understood different to what we think he meant?

I would really appreciate if you could answer these questions yes or no. Thanks.
 

John1.12

Free gift
Please explain why you say the verse says he will literally raise himself.
Did Jesus also say to literally cut off your hand, and tear out your eye? Did he also say to literally eat his body?

Yes, he literally said these things. Does it mean there is a literal application to them?

Could you answer the questions reasonably, rather than repeat what you believe. Thanks.



Not sure what you are trying to say here.
What Jesus said and did, is what the writers recorded.
The writers are not interpreting what Jesus said.

So what I would like to know...
Do you agree that God raised Jesus from the dead?
Do you agree that there is no scripture that says Jesus raised himself from the dead?
Do you agree that what Jesus said, can be understood different to what we think he meant?

I would really appreciate if you could answer these questions yes or no. Thanks.
If when Jesus said " cut off your hand it it offends and such ..." and then was qualified with a " This he said speaking of such and such " You would have a point perhaps. As John 2 19 is qualified with "
21¶But he spake of the temple of his body.

22When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

It literally spells out exactly what Jesus meant. Its unavoidable. Well unless you have a doctrine your trying to force into the text .
 

John1.12

Free gift
Please explain why you say the verse says he will literally raise himself.
Did Jesus also say to literally cut off your hand, and tear out your eye? Did he also say to literally eat his body?

Yes, he literally said these things. Does it mean there is a literal application to them?

Could you answer the questions reasonably, rather than repeat what you believe. Thanks.



Not sure what you are trying to say here.
What Jesus said and did, is what the writers recorded.
The writers are not interpreting what Jesus said.

So what I would like to know...
Do you agree that God raised Jesus from the dead?
Do you agree that there is no scripture that says Jesus raised himself from the dead?
Do you agree that what Jesus said, can be understood different to what we think he meant?

I would really appreciate if you could answer these questions yes or no. Thanks.
//Please explain why you say the verse says he will literally raise himself.// Because that's exactly what he said. And that's exactly what the diciples heard him say and understood it that way . If your trying an explain these verses away as not being literal,id would ask, by what standard are you using to interpret any passage ? Because if these verse literally do not mean as they read ,then nothing in the bible can be understood plainly , with your approach .
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
If when Jesus said " cut off your hand it it offends and such ..." and then was qualified with a " This he said speaking of such and such " You would have a point perhaps. As John 2 19 is qualified with "
21¶But he spake of the temple of his body.

22When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

It literally spells out exactly what Jesus meant. Its unavoidable. Well unless you have a doctrine your trying to force into the text .
You consider that a reasonable answer?
What you just did, is basically admit that you decide what you want the text to mean, and whatever you think it means, it means, because Jesus would have said what you think he would have, if what you believe were not true.
74.gif
 

John1.12

Free gift
You consider that a reasonable answer?
What you just did, is basically admit that you decide what you want the text to mean, and whatever you think it means, it means, because Jesus would have said what you think he would have, if what you believe were not true.
74.gif
I could have just quoted the verses and said nothing . That should be enough. It literally, step ,by step says what it means. Jesus is undoubtedly saying the he will raise his body up in three days . You couldn't find a clearer verse if you tried .It even says how the diciples understood it . You have two things. The explanation and how it was understood . Its a dream text to be certain of .
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
//Please explain why you say the verse says he will literally raise himself.// Because that's exactly what he said. And that's exactly what the diciples heard him say and understood it that way . If your trying an explain these verses away as not being literal,id would ask, by what standard are you using to interpret any passage ? Because if these verse literally do not mean as they read ,then nothing in the bible can be understood plainly , with your approach .
I use the Bible.
Alll the scriptures say
  1. Jesus died. He was dead. Dead as a door nail. Dead.
  2. God raised Jesus up.
  3. Jesus became alive by God's power.
  4. No scripture says Jesus raised himself from the dead, which would contradict every scripture from the so called OT and NT. Death is a state of activity, and no one can do anything in death.
That's the Bible.
You however, are trying to support your belief, by using a text that could be misunderstood.
The disciples misunderstood, a lot of what Jesus said. Why?

He spoke spiritual things.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I could have just quoted the verses and said nothing . That should be enough. It literally, step ,by step says what it means. Jesus is undoubtedly saying the he will raise his body up in three days . You couldn't find a clearer verse if you tried .It even says how the diciples understood it . You have two things. The explanation and how it was understood . Its a dream text to be certain of .
Cut off your hand and throw it away from you, said Jesus. Why don't you quote that, and leave it?
 

John1.12

Free gift
I use the Bible.
Alll the scriptures say
  1. Jesus died. He was dead. Dead as a door nail. Dead.
  2. God raised Jesus up.
  3. Jesus became alive by God's power.
  4. No scripture says Jesus raised himself from the dead, which would contradict every scripture from the so called OT and NT. Death is a state of activity, and no one can do anything in death.
That's the Bible.
You however, are trying to support your belief, by using a text that could be misunderstood.
The disciples misunderstood, a lot of what Jesus said. Why?

He spoke spiritual things.
Yes some call this ' harmonising ' its a wonderful approach which enables a person who is not following :
2 Timothy 2:15

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

To make the bible say what they want.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Yes some call this ' harmonising ' its a wonderful approach which enables a person who is not following :
2 Timothy 2:15

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

To make the bible say what they want.
Okay. You take care... Unless... Is there another subject you wanted to discuss?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Mathew 28:6 uses the Greek word ἠγέρθη which can be translated either as "he was raised up" or "he has risen." See Mounce; NAB; NRSV; ISV; GW; etc.

Because I was not talking about whether Jesus raised His own body or not it does not matter about the alternative translations of Matt 28:5.
I was talking about whether He was raised as a spirit or bodily and showed that He rose bodily.
 
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