JWs, please answer!

[savagewind]

you might need to provide some references to this because i dont think the Watchtower ever promoted the worship of Jesus.... even going back to before we were named Jehovahs Witnesses, the bible students were promoting Jehovah as the only true God and as the Father of Jesus. So i dont think they would have been promoting the worship of him.

Back in the Watchtower of 1881 they declared that Jehovah was the Supreme being and the God of the bible. Unless you can provide some reference, i cant really say if what you are saying is correct or not.

"It seems clear that His Divinity was retained in humanity because He repeatedly spoke of Himself as having come down from heaven, and because He, though passing through trial and sorrow as a man, was yet possessed of the authority and exercised the prerogatives of a God. He was the object of unreproved worship even when a babe, by the wise men who came to see the new-born King. Matt. 2:2-11. Even the angels delighted to do Him honor. "When He bringeth the first-begotten into the world, He saith, "And let all the angels of God worship Him." Heb. 1:6. He never reproved any one for acts of worship offered to Himself, but when Cornelius offered such service to Peter--the leading apostle-- "he took him up, saying, stand up; I myself also am a man." .... Had Christ not been more than a man the same reason would have prevented from receiving worship...." Zion's Watch Tower 1880 Oct pp.2-3

"It is undoubtedly proper enough for us to address petitions to our Redeemer and Advocate, who loved us and gave himself for us....Although we are nowhere instructed to make petitions to him, it evidently could not be improper so to do; for such a course is nowhere prohibited, and the disciples worshiped him." Zion's Watch Tower 1892 May 15 p.157

"Jehovah God commands all to worship Christ Jesus because Christ Jesus is the express image of his Father, Jehovah, and because he is the Executive Officer of Jehovah always carrying out Jehovah's purpose (Heb.:3-6)." Watchtower 1939 Nov. 15 p.339

Jehovah's Witness historical worship of Jesus until 1954

 

[Pegg]

Jehovah's Witness historical worship of Jesus until 1954

yes, and as i said, they were using the KJV bible back then which used the word 'worship' in those scriptures.

It wasnt until the 40's that they began looking at bible translation.

 

[Ingledsva]

Let's distinguish between two types of saviour. The first saves or delivers from oppression and death on earth; and the second saves from sin and eternal separation from God.
Othniel and Moses would be saviours or deliverers on earth, when the spirit of God was upon them.
But only God is able to save a person from sin and eternal separation. Are you agreed?

Then why did Moses tell us the coming savior would be like him?


Followed by YHVH's agreement of that statement? -


And finally the Christians and Jesus using those verses to say Jesus is that Savior?


Another HUMAN Savior - Special/Singular as the Messiah that ends things, - but still a human.


(MOSES) Deu 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;


(YHVH) Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.


Act 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.


(Jesus) Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.


Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.



*

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

you might need to provide some references to this because i dont think the Watchtower ever promoted the worship of Jesus.... even going back to before we were named Jehovahs Witnesses, the bible students were promoting Jehovah as the only true God and as the Father of Jesus. So i dont think they would have been promoting the worship of him.

Back in the Watchtower of 1881 they declared that Jehovah was the Supreme being and the God of the bible. Unless you can provide some reference, i cant really say if what you are saying is correct or not.

Fair enough. Jehovah's Witness historical worship of Jesus until 1954 (same link as savage, just noticed).

I really hate putting up links, but this link has direct quotations and references where you can see for yourself

I dont see that it means Christ must be equal with God.

Jehovah himself requires that all mankind honor his son. And that is quite reasonable seeing Jehovah gave him 'all authority'

Yeah, God requires mankind to honor his son, no problems there. The problem is, the honor is equal to that of the Father, and those were Jesus' words. So if you are to honor the Son in the same way you honor the Almighty God, then there is obviously some equality there, and who else can be honored the same way as the Almighty if it not were someone that is equal to him?

I can't think of any other prophet or man that would have the nerve to say "honor me as you would honor God". The very closest thing we've ever had to someone saying something even remotely like this was Moses, when he tried to take credit for God's work (Numbers 20:9-11), and we all know what happened to him after that.

And not only that, but what Jesus said about his equality with the Father harmonizes with why the Jews wanted to stone him, because he was making himself "equal to God" (John 5:18).

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Until the 1940's, we were using and quoting from the King James Version bible. So whatever that bible says is what we were quoting from.

But this doesn't seem to be a translation issue, or grammatical issue. This is an interpretation issue. The Hebrew and Greek words mean what they mean. It isn't the translation that determines whether the scripture should read "obeisance" or "worship", that is all about interpretation right there.

Thats why we made a new translation. And it was during the creation of the NWT that the translators came to realise just how incorrect the KJV bible really was. Its a terribly translated bible.

Well, I use the NIV and I see "worship". I'd like to know how many bible's renders the word to "obeisance" besides the NWT.

 

[Pegg]

Fair enough. Jehovah's Witness historical worship of Jesus until 1954 (same link as savage, just noticed).

I really hate putting up links, but this link has direct quotations and references where you can see for yourself

first thing you should realise is that the website in your link is not an official WT society website. So those links may be a tad 'skewed'

However i will say that, by looking at the dates, its very possible that the view was that Jesus was to be worshiped. Afterall, thats what the KJV bible says to do. And those early bible students were from denominations who did worship Jesus.

But further study of the scriptures revealed the different relationship between Jehovah and Jesus. Once they realised that Jehovah himself is the one we are supposed to worship, it came necessary to analyse why the KJV bible said 'worship' and this led to a clear understanding of things.

And not only that, but what Jesus said about his equality with the Father harmonizes with why the Jews wanted to stone him, because he was making himself "equal to God" (John 5:18).

actually, the verse you are referring to literally means 'he did NOT view himself equal to God'

 

[Pegg]

But this doesn't seem to be a translation issue, or grammatical issue. This is an interpretation issue. The Hebrew and Greek words mean what they mean. It isn't the translation that determines whether the scripture should read "obeisance" or "worship", that is all about interpretation right there.



Well, I use the NIV and I see "worship". I'd like to know how many bible's renders the word to "obeisance" besides the NWT.

KJV
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith: And let all the angels of God adore him.

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
6 and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, `And let them bow before him -- all messengers of God;'

Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament (MOUNCE)
προσκυνέω (proskyne&#333
Strong: G4352
GK: G4686
The literal meaning of the word is :
to do reverence or homage by kissing the hand;
There are verses where the word is used in settings other then 'worship' such as: in reverence or homage by prostration, Mt. 2:2, 8, 11; 20:20; Lk. 4:7; 24:52;
Also as an act of bowing one’s self in adoration, Heb. 11:21

The word can mean 'worship' .... but in many instances in the bible we can see that it doesnt mean worship. It also means 'bowing' before someone....and it 'literally' means to 'kiss the hand'

 

[Ingledsva]

...


actually, the verse you are referring to literally means 'he did NOT view himself equal to God'

YEP!

Here it is in context.


Joh 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.



*

 

[Pegg]

YEP!

Here it is in context.


Joh 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.



*

It amazes me that with soooooo many verses stating otherwise, people still stumble over the small handful of so-called 'trinity proof texts' and claim that it provides absolute proof that Jesus is God.

I dont even understand why they need Jesus to be God....do you??

 

[Ingledsva]

It amazes me that with soooooo many verses stating otherwise, people still stumble over the small handful of so-called 'trinity proof texts' and claim that it provides absolute proof that Jesus is God.

I dont even understand why they need Jesus to be God....do you??

Nope I don't!


There is actually no Trinity in the Bible when you look at the language of the original texts.



*

 

[Pegg]

Nope I don't!


There is actually no Trinity in the Bible when you look at the language of the original texts.

*

a trinity would have been blasphemy to a Jewish person. Can you imagine!

 

[Desert Snake]

a trinity would have been blasphemy to a Jewish person. Can you imagine!

Many Jewish people are Christians.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It amazes me that with soooooo many verses stating otherwise,

Those verses don't mean what you think they do and the KJV is a very outdated version of the Bible. It astonishes me that people still widely use it. It would be as silly as me quoting from the Douay-Rheims, with all its archaic language.

Here's the passage from the RSV:

19 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever he does, that the Son does likewise. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows him all that he himself is doing; and greater works than these will he show him, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, 27 and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

I see nothing in that that disputes the Trinity. Funny how Jesus wants us to honor Him as we honor God. But go ahead and ignore it...

But if you want to know how it's explained, here: Monotheism and the Mystery of the Triune God

 

[Pegg]

Many Jewish people are Christians.

you mean 'isrealites'

Jewish relates to Judaism as a religion.

But they are actually 'Isrealites' according to the scriptures.

ie,
Joshua 2:2 The king of Jer′i·cho was told: “Look! Israelite men have come in here tonight to spy out the land.”

 

[Desert Snake]

you mean 'isrealites'

Jewish relates to Judaism as a religion.

But they are actually 'Isrealites' according to the scriptures.

ie,
Joshua 2:2 The king of Jer′i·cho was told: “Look! Israelite men have come in here tonight to spy out the land.”

Well, that would be fine but in much common usage it is otherwise.

Anyways, back on topic, if your goal is to discredit Jesus, why not just negate His status to minor prophet, why even elevate Him to (I guess higher) status by equating Him with the angel Michael. It's just confusing.

 

[Pegg]

Well, that would be fine but in much common usage it is otherwise.

Anyways, back on topic, if your goal is to discredit Jesus, why not just negate His status to minor prophet, why even elevate Him to (I guess higher) status by equating Him with the angel Michael. It's just confusing.

or why not just recognise him for who he is....the Son of God.

Of all Gods creations, there is no one higher then Jesus. Its far less confusing then trying to make scriptures fit into the 'trinity' model and equate him with the person of God.

 

[Desert Snake]

or why not just recognise him for who he is....the Son of God.

Of all Gods creations, there is no one higher then Jesus. Its far less confusing then trying to make scriptures fit into the 'trinity' model and equate him with the person of God.

No, Son of God means Deity to Christians. It isn't meant in the same sense as for others. Unless you are saying Jesus is deity now?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

or why not just recognise him for who he is....the Son of God.

Of all Gods creations, there is no one higher then Jesus. Its far less confusing then trying to make scriptures fit into the 'trinity' model and equate him with the person of God.

Yes, He is the Son of God, but He is not a creation. I believe in the Trinity and I'm not confused.

 

[Pegg]

Yes, He is the Son of God, but He is not a creation. I believe in the Trinity and I'm not confused.

the scripturs state otherwise:

Colossians 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
15 who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,

1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the first begotten of every creature.


Speaking of Jesus Christ, revelation says:
3:14 “To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce′a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God


1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
14 And unto the Angel of the Church of the Laodiceans write, These things saith Amen, the faithful and true witness, that [c]beginning of the creatures of God.


King James Version (KJV)
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God

Notice how the catholic bible translates this verse:

Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
14 “And to the angel of the church in La-odice′a write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.

Jesus is a 'created' being. He is not eternal and therefore cannot be the eternal God. He is a creation of God....a 'begotten' son.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

the scripturs state otherwise:

Colossians 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
15 who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,

1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the first begotten of every creature.


Speaking of Jesus Christ, revelation says:
3:14 “To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce′a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God


1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
14 And unto the Angel of the Church of the Laodiceans write, These things saith Amen, the faithful and true witness, that [c]beginning of the creatures of God.


King James Version (KJV)
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God

Notice how the catholic bible translates this verse:

Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
14 “And to the angel of the church in La-odice′a write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.

Jesus is a 'created' being. He is not eternal and therefore cannot be the eternal God. He is a creation of God....a 'begotten' son.

Colossians 1:15-17

- Jesus is called the "first-born of all creation. For in Him were all things created . . . He is before all and by Him all things were created." JWs think this means Jesus is the first created being.
"First-born" here does not refer to time, but to preeminence. It is a title given by a father to his son. Isaac, Jacob and Ephraim received the blessing of the "first-born," though they were not biologically the first sons born to their parents.
The text doesn't say Jesus was created. If so, St. Paul would have said Jesus created all other things, but he did not. Jesus is the Creator of all things. He is God. He is given the title "first-born" as the title of His preeminence and because He is eternally begotten by the Father.

Jesus Christ is not God


Jesus Himself said in the Book of Revelation that He is the Alpha and the Omega. You can't be a creation and the source of all things at the same time!


Nothing you say disputes the Trinity, Pegg. I find your arguments to be pitiful. Tsk tsk.