JWs, please answer!

[Ingledsva]

He tells us he is the MESSIAH - Sanctified - and SENT - by GOD.

You also seem to have missed something in those sentences from Jesus -

He corrects them - and says SON of God.

The problem is, they wanted to stone him for saying he was the Son of God, too.

John 19:7
But Pilate answered, “You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him.”
7 The Jewish leaders insisted, “We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God.”

So according to Jewish law, to even call yourself the Son of God, you are worthy of death.



ING - First this is a different text then that which we were discussing.

However - The LATER CHRISTIAN that wrote it - had no idea what he was talking about!

Ask the Jewish believers on this site if they are the Sons of God.


"The Israelites are addressed as "the children of the Lord your God" (Deut. xiv. 1). When Israel was young, he was called from Egypt to be God's son (Hosea xi. 1). The Israelites are designated also "the children of the living God" (ib. ii. 1 [R.V. i. 10]; comp. Jer. iii. 4). They are addressed as "backsliding children" (Jer. iii. 14) that might and should call God their father (ib. iii. 19). Deut. xxxii. 5, though the text is corrupt, seems to indicate that through perverseness Israel has forfeited this privilege. Isaiah, also, apostrophizes the Israelites as "children [of God] that are corrupters," though God has reared them (Isa. i. 4). As a man chastises his son, so does God chastise Israel (Deut. viii. 5); and like a father pities his children, so does God show pity." Jewish Encyclopedia

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the sons/children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Sam 7:14 I shall be a father to him, and he shall be a son to Me. If He takes iniquity upon Himself, then I will chasten him with a rod of men, and with strokes of the sons of men.
Psalm 2:7 I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.
See I Chronicles 22:7-11
Descendants of Seth, were called "sons of God" (Job 1:6; 2:1; Psalm 88:7; Wisdom 2:13; etc.).


Exo 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:


EDIT - Forgot to add -

Psa 82:1 A Psalm of Asaph: The ELOHIYM/gods/MAGISTRATES/Judges stand in the assembly of the mighty/powerful, among the magistrates to judge/execute.
Psa 82:2 For how long will you judge unjustly, and by reason of, advance the wicked?
Psa 82:3 Defend the weak and bereaved, needy and destitute; be righteous!
Psa 82:4 Deliver the weak and destitute from the hand of the wicked.
Psa 82:5 Of a truth, they observe and don't understand. In misery they walk. Rotten is the whole foundation.
Psa 82:6 I said Elohiym/Judges thou are; and sons elevated above all others!
Psa 82:7 Nevertheless as human beings, shall die, and of a certainty, as all leaders fall.
Psa 82:8 Arise o Elohiym/Judges, execute judgment on the land/nation; for you shall inherit the whole nation/people/land.


I think that settles the matter!

And as I have shown over-and-over, from the Bible, ALL of the people of Israel are Sons of God.
Jesus is claiming to be the Special/Singular awaited Son of God - The Messiah - a special human from the Line of David.

So calling yourself a "special human" is speaking blasphemy? Based on what law? Not the Jewish law. But guess what, calling yourself God..equal to God, or God's Son in the way that Jesus said it, THAT would have been blasphemy, had it not been the truth.

No - claiming without Temple confirmation, to be the awaited Messiah - is (in their eyes.)


*

 

[Redemptionsong]

Pegg, I have to say I think you're walking on thin ice. To argue that the risen Christ is not worthy of worship means you are still under law. If all JWs think this way then their salvation is wholly dependent on their own righteousness, not the righteousness of Christ.

 

[Pegg]

Pegg, I have to say I think you're walking on thin ice. To argue that the risen Christ is not worthy of worship means you are still under law. If all JWs think this way then their salvation is wholly dependent on their own righteousness, not the righteousness of Christ.

If we are talking about who we should worship, then the scriptures are very clear that it is Jehovah we should worship.

He is our creator and life giver. Jesus is our redeemer and the mediator between us and God. For that, he gets our full allegiance, undivided attention and utmost respect and praise.

But you will not find one single Jehovahs Witness who worships Christ Jesus. If we did, then we would be sinning against Gods laws including the first of the 10 commandments:

“You must not have any other gods against my face,” Ex 20:3

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

If we are talking about who we should worship, then the scriptures are very clear that it is Jehovah we should worship.


He is our creator and life giver. Jesus is our redeemer and the mediator between us and God. For that, he gets our full allegiance, undivided attention and utmost respect and praise.

But you will not find one single Jehovahs Witness who worships Christ Jesus. If we did, then we would be sinning against Gods laws including the first of the 10 commandments:

“You must not have any other gods against my face,” Ex 20:3

Then explain why is the word "obeisance" used every time the word "worship" is used for Christ, but the actual word of "worship" is used in reference to the Father? The same Hebrew word is used on each occasion..but since JW's don't believe that Jesus is worthy of worship, they render the word to "obeisance" when it is in reference to Jesus.

This is a prime example of letting presuppositions interpret the scripture for you, instead of simply letting the bible speak for itself.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Pegg,
I'm happy to let scripture do the talking.
Galatians 3:20: Now a mediator is not a mediatorof one, but God is one.

You say that Jesus is your mediator. A mediator is able to connect two and mediate because he has a foot in both camps - that's what makes him a mediator. So Jesus must have a foot in the camp of MAN and a foot in the camp of GOD.

This fits with the scriptural statement that the only begotten Son of God is both fully human and fully God. As the scripture says, God is ONE. The same spirit that is in the Father is in Christ, and in us (who are baptised with the baptism of Jesus Christ).

 

[seeking4truth]

A mediator does not have to be in one camp or the other or have a foot in both camps.
A mediator has to be honest, just, truthful and compassionate, able to be empathetic with both sides and to enable them to deal with each other to the benefit of both.

 

[Redemptionsong]

OK seeking4truth, explain to me what kind of mediator is able to empathize with both God and mankind without having a foot in either camp?!

 

[Pegg]

Then explain why is the word "obeisance" used every time the word "worship" is used for Christ, but the actual word of "worship" is used in reference to the Father? The same Hebrew word is used on each occasion..but since JW's don't believe that Jesus is worthy of worship, they render the word to "obeisance" when it is in reference to Jesus.

This is a prime example of letting presuppositions interpret the scripture for you, instead of simply letting the bible speak for itself.

both 'worship' and 'obeisance' are translated from the Hebrew hish·ta·chawah′ and the Greek pro·sky·ne′o

Both words mean to 'bow down' before someone. You can bow down to a human ruler or a prophet or someone in high authority....or God in an act of worship. So it would be wrong to translate these words as 'worship' in all cases, wouldnt it? For example, imagine if hish·ta·chawah′ was rendered 'worship in this verse:
1Samual 24:8 Then David got up and went out from the cave and called out after Saul: “My lord the king!” When Saul looked behind him, David bowed down (hish·ta·chawah&#8242 low with his face to the ground and prostrated himself.
This is obviously not an act of 'worship' in this verse. And likewise in other verses, the context determines if its an act of worship or simply 'bowing down' to someone because of the respect being shown to them.

IN the case of Jesus, we openly acknowledge that we dont worship him. So when we see the hebrew or greek words in reference to Jesus, we wont use 'worship'.... we will use them in the proper context of 'bowing down' to Jesus in recognition of his position just as David did when he bowed down to King Saul.

The key point here is that the NWT has not changed the text. It has translated the words according to the context. No one but God is to be worshiped, so when those words appear in relation to anyone except God, it is an act of bowing down in respect and recognition, not of worship.

 

[Pegg]

Pegg,
I'm happy to let scripture do the talking.
Galatians 3:20: Now a mediator is not a mediatorof one, but God is one.

You say that Jesus is your mediator. A mediator is able to connect two and mediate because he has a foot in both camps - that's what makes him a mediator. So Jesus must have a foot in the camp of MAN and a foot in the camp of GOD.

If Jesus was God, we wouldn't need a mediator because we would be connecting directly to God. Thats why the scripture says 'a mediator is not a mediator of one'

But God is one. So how can Jesus be both God and the mediator of God? That makes two.

This fits with the scriptural statement that the only begotten Son of God is both fully human and fully God. As the scripture says, God is ONE. The same spirit that is in the Father is in Christ, and in us (who are baptised with the baptism of Jesus Christ).

Jesus sits at the right hand of God. He is a powerful spirit. In that way, Jesus is divine.... just as the angels are divine.
But Jesus is not human anymore. He is not a man of flesh and bone.

 

[Desert Snake]

But you will not find one single Jehovahs Witness who worships Christ Jesus.

Great. And that isn't Christianity. That's what confuses many of us, I think. We assume it's a Christian church.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

both 'worship' and 'obeisance' are translated from the Hebrew hish·ta·chawah′ and the Greek pro·sky·ne′o

Both words mean to 'bow down' before someone. You can bow down to a human ruler or a prophet or someone in high authority....or God in an act of worship. So it would be wrong to translate these words as 'worship' in all cases, wouldnt it? For example, imagine if hish·ta·chawah′ was rendered 'worship in this verse:
1Samual 24:8 Then David got up and went out from the cave and called out after Saul: “My lord the king!” When Saul looked behind him, David bowed down (hish·ta·chawah&#8242 low with his face to the ground and prostrated himself.
This is obviously not an act of 'worship' in this verse. And likewise in other verses, the context determines if its an act of worship or simply 'bowing down' to someone because of the respect being shown to them.

IN the case of Jesus, we openly acknowledge that we dont worship him. So when we see the hebrew or greek words in reference to Jesus, we wont use 'worship'.... we will use them in the proper context of 'bowing down' to Jesus in recognition of his position just as David did when he bowed down to King Saul.

The key point here is that the NWT has not changed the text. It has translated the words according to the context. No one but God is to be worshiped, so when those words appear in relation to anyone except God, it is an act of bowing down in respect and recognition, not of worship.

Actually, the text was changed, but it was changed by the Watch Tower Society. The NWT did not always render word to "worship". It was "worship" in the earlier translations and it was believed that Jesus was to be worshiped at that point. The revision was added later...which leaves the question of if the WatchTower leaders were to change it back to worship, would you just "go with the flow", or would you simply think for yourself? At this point, there should be no 360 degree changes in any doctrine. The scriptures has certainly never changed, so why is there all of this flip-flopping that the WatchTower is known for? If the "leaders" of the "church" were wrong in there intepretations, then obviously they were not ordained by God.

Jesus said that "all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father" (John 5:23). So this would seem more than just "do obeisance", this is the mere act of worship. What other prophet were equal in this aspect? Sure, the prophets were to be honored, but not in the same manner as the Father was honored...and it is because of this why we can draw the conclusion that Jesus is to be honored like the Father, because he is equal with the Father...and to be equal with God, is to be God.

 

[Pegg]

Actually, the text was changed, but it was changed by the Watch Tower Society. The NWT did not always render word to "worship". It was "worship" in the earlier translations and it was believed that Jesus was to be worshiped at that point. The revision was added later...which leaves the question of if the WatchTower leaders were to change it back to worship, would you just "go with the flow", or would you simply think for yourself? At this point, there should be no 360 degree changes in any doctrine. The scriptures has certainly never changed, so why is there all of this flip-flopping that the WatchTower is known for? If the "leaders" of the "church" were wrong in there intepretations, then obviously they were not ordained by God.

Jesus said that "all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father" (John 5:23). So this would seem more than just "do obeisance", this is the mere act of worship. What other prophet were equal in this aspect? Sure, the prophets were to be honored, but not in the same manner as the Father was honored...and it is because of this why we can draw the conclusion that Jesus is to be honored like the Father, because he is equal with the Father...and to be equal with God, is to be God.

I dont know if the WT have ever taught that Jesus was to be worshiped...its possible that the first edition of the NWT used the word 'worship' in relation to Jesus, but as our understanding has grown, so has our desire to be more accurate in what we teach.

We can't teach people to worship Jesus, its as a simple as that. And if our translation needs further improvement to make that point clear, then im sure the NWT translation committee will make further improvements.

No one's knowledge is complete.... if we thought it was possible to know everything, then surely we wouldnt have changed anything from what we were teaching 100 years ago.

But the fact is that we dont know everything, no one does. But if you come to a clearer understanding, then you are obligated to follow through on that. Otherwise we stagnate....kind of like the KJV bible.

 

[JayJayDee]

Hosea 13:4
NWT
4 But I am Jehovah your God from the land of Egypt; You knew no God except me, And besides me there is no savior.

KJV:
4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.


Luke 2:11
For today there was born to you in David’s city a savior, who is Christ the Lord.


May i ask if you are wondering if Jesus is the same savior as mentioned in Hosea?

I was wondering the same thing Pegg.

Funny how one word can convey so many black and white beliefs. Yet this one word is used throughout the Bible in different ways.

A SAVIOR is described as "One who preserves or delivers from danger or destruction. Jehovah is identified as the principal Savior, the only Source of deliverance. (Isa 43:11; 45:21) He was the Savior and Deliverer of Israel, time and again. (Psalm 106:8, 10, 21; Isa 43:3; 45:15; Jer 14:8) He saved not only the nation but also individuals who served him. (2Sam 22:1-3) Often his salvation was through men raised up by him as saviors. (Neh 9:27) During the period of the Judges, these special saviors were divinely selected and empowered to deliver Israel from foreign oppression. (Judg 2:16; 3:9, 15) While the judge lived, he served to keep Israel in the right way, and this brought them relief from their enemies. (Judg 2:18) When Jesus was on earth, Jehovah was his Savior, supporting and strengthening him to maintain integrity through his strenuous trials.—Heb 5:7; Psalm 28:8." (Insight Volumes WTBTS)

So God can be a "Savior" through those he appoints to be saviors....Jesus included.

Like the titles "god", or "Lord"...these titles are not exclusive to the Father but applied to others in the scriptures; various "saviors" were used by God to save his people.

 

[Pegg]

I was wondering the same thing Pegg.

Funny how one word can convey so many black and white beliefs. Yet this one word is used throughout the Bible in different ways.

A SAVIOR is described as "One who preserves or delivers from danger or destruction. Jehovah is identified as the principal Savior, the only Source of deliverance. (Isa 43:11; 45:21) He was the Savior and Deliverer of Israel, time and again. (Psalm 106:8, 10, 21; Isa 43:3; 45:15; Jer 14:8) He saved not only the nation but also individuals who served him. (2Sam 22:1-3) Often his salvation was through men raised up by him as saviors. (Neh 9:27) During the period of the Judges, these special saviors were divinely selected and empowered to deliver Israel from foreign oppression. (Judg 2:16; 3:9, 15) While the judge lived, he served to keep Israel in the right way, and this brought them relief from their enemies. (Judg 2:18) When Jesus was on earth, Jehovah was his Savior, supporting and strengthening him to maintain integrity through his strenuous trials.—Heb 5:7; Psalm 28:8." (Insight Volumes WTBTS)

So God can be a "Savior" through those he appoints to be saviors....Jesus included.

Like the titles "god", or "Lord"...these titles are not exclusive to the Father but applied to others in the scriptures; various "saviors" were used by God to save his people.

yes it really depends on the context of the verses... a good example is found in
Judges 3:9 When the Israelites called to Jehovah for help, Jehovah raised up a savior to rescue the Israelites, Oth′ni·el the son of Ke′naz, the younger brother of Ca′leb. 10 The spirit of Jehovah came upon him, and he became the judge of Israel. When he went out to battle, Jehovah gave Cu′shan-rish·a·tha′im the king of Mes·o·po·ta′mi·a into his hand so that he prevailed over Cu′shan-rish·a·tha′im. 11 After that the land had rest for 40 years. Then Oth′ni·el the son of Ke′naz died.

Here Othniel is a 'savior' raised up by Jehovah. Another example:

Isaiah 19:20 It will be for a sign and for a witness to Jehovah of armies in the land of Egypt; for they will cry out to Jehovah because of the oppressors, and he will send them a savior, a grand one, who will save them.



And of course, when refering to the Christ, the christians believed that he was a savior sent by God:

1John 4:14 In addition, we ourselves have seen and are bearing witness that the Father has sent his Son as Savior of the world. 15 Whoever acknowledges that Jesus is God’s Son, God remains in union with such one and he in union with God. 16 And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us.

Jesus is savior because God sent him to us.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

I dont know if the WT have ever taught that Jesus was to be worshiped

You don't know...or you don't "want" to know? It is in their past publications of Watch Tower literature.

...its possible that the first edition of the NWT used the word 'worship' in relation to Jesus, but as our understanding has grown, so has our desire to be more accurate in what we teach.

Sorry, but as good as that sounds, it is not the case. You just said yourself what the Hebrew and Greek words meant in this context. The words mean what they mean...the only thing that has changed is the interpretation of what is meant by the words. THAT is what has changed. And you only reach that sort of interpretation if you have WatchTower guru's interpreting what it means.

If the WatchTower suddenly changed it once again because the "light has gotten brighter", you will just go with the flow, won't you? No questions asked, right? So it isn't about what the bible say, it is about what the WatchTower claims the bible says.

We can't teach people to worship Jesus, its as a simple as that.

What you mean is, "we can't teach people to worship Jesus, like our predecessors did in the past". As I said, if the WatchTower changed the doctrine again, guess what, you will be worshipping Jesus, won't you?

And if our translation needs further improvement to make that point clear, then im sure the NWT translation committee will make further improvements.

I wouldn't call it "improvements".

No one's knowledge is complete.... if we thought it was possible to know everything, then surely we wouldnt have changed anything from what we were teaching 100 years ago.

I agree, but there is a such thing as "to many changes". To many changes, revisions, interpretations. I don't want to be part of an organization that may change its teachings 360 degrees in 10 years, meaning that basically, everything that I was taught and was teaching within the past 10 years was inaccurate. God's word isn't inaccurate, so why should the teachings of the "higher up's" be inaccurate? False doctrine, that is why.

But the fact is that we dont know everything, no one does. But if you come to a clearer understanding, then you are obligated to follow through on that. Otherwise we stagnate....kind of like the KJV bible.

LOL.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Let's distinguish between two types of saviour. The first saves or delivers from oppression and death on earth; and the second saves from sin and eternal separation from God.
Othniel and Moses would be saviours or deliverers on earth, when the spirit of God was upon them.
But only God is able to save a person from sin and eternal separation. Are you agreed?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Pegg, 1 Corinthians 6:3, 'Know ye not that we shall judge angels?'

 

[Pegg]

Actually, the text was changed, but it was changed by the Watch Tower Society. The NWT did not always render word to "worship". It was "worship" in the earlier translations and it was believed that Jesus was to be worshiped at that point. The revision was added later...which leaves the question of if the WatchTower leaders were to change it back to worship, would you just "go with the flow", or would you simply think for yourself? At this point, there should be no 360 degree changes in any doctrine. The scriptures has certainly never changed, so why is there all of this flip-flopping that the WatchTower is known for? If the "leaders" of the "church" were wrong in there intepretations, then obviously they were not ordained by God.

you might need to provide some references to this because i dont think the Watchtower ever promoted the worship of Jesus.... even going back to before we were named Jehovahs Witnesses, the bible students were promoting Jehovah as the only true God and as the Father of Jesus. So i dont think they would have been promoting the worship of him.

Back in the Watchtower of 1881 they declared that Jehovah was the Supreme being and the God of the bible. Unless you can provide some reference, i cant really say if what you are saying is correct or not.

Jesus said that "all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father" (John 5:23). So this would seem more than just "do obeisance", this is the mere act of worship. What other prophet were equal in this aspect? Sure, the prophets were to be honored, but not in the same manner as the Father was honored...and it is because of this why we can draw the conclusion that Jesus is to be honored like the Father, because he is equal with the Father...and to be equal with God, is to be God.

I dont see that it means Christ must be equal with God.

Jehovah himself requires that all mankind honor his son. And that is quite reasonable seeing Jehovah gave him 'all authority'

It surely doesnt mean that we should neglect the worship of Jehovah though.... that would be against Gods own laws and Jesus instructions to us.

 

[Pegg]

You don't know...or you don't "want" to know? It is in their past publications of Watch Tower literature.


Sorry, but as good as that sounds, it is not the case. You just said yourself what the Hebrew and Greek words meant in this context. The words mean what they mean...the only thing that has changed is the interpretation of what is meant by the words. THAT is what has changed. And you only reach that sort of interpretation if you have WatchTower guru's interpreting what it means.

Until the 1940's, we were using and quoting from the King James Version bible. So whatever that bible says is what we were quoting from.

Thats why we made a new translation. And it was during the creation of the NWT that the translators came to realise just how incorrect the KJV bible really was. Its a terribly translated bible.

 

[Pegg]

Let's distinguish between two types of saviour. The first saves or delivers from oppression and death on earth; and the second saves from sin and eternal separation from God.
Othniel and Moses would be saviours or deliverers on earth, when the spirit of God was upon them.
But only God is able to save a person from sin and eternal separation. Are you agreed?

How does he do that?


Was it not by sending Jesus to earth to give his life in exchange for ours?