• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

JW's Jesus is Archangel Michael?

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
OH! Interesting. What does the majority say? Do more than 10% say that it is a statement of fact? Of course you don't know that but I wonder how many?
By the way, stay away from Jewish tradition. Those ideas concerning multiple archangels come not from God but from their adultery with Babylon's religions.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
By the way, stay away from Jewish tradition. Those ideas concerning multiple archangels come not from God but from their adultery with Babylon's religions.
I stay aware from ALL tradition. Thank you.
Hebrews 10:25
Custom =tradition (not habit). I think you should trust me on this one.
 

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
I stay aware from ALL tradition. Thank you.
Hebrews 10:25
Custom =tradition (not habit). I think you should trust me on this one.
There can be custom (tradition) that is of God and there can be custom (tradition) which comes from outside of God.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

But Colossians 2:8 "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There can be custom (tradition) that is of God and there can be custom (tradition) which comes from outside of God.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

But Colossians 2:8 "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."
To hand down an ordinance to another generation the precept must be accepted as truth and usually recorded.
The customs which prevent some people from gathering to the body of Christ are not precepts handed down but are beliefs that govern a person singularly. Colossians 2:8 and 2 Thessalonians 2:15 are about methods that are adopted. Hebrews 10:25 is about a person's attitude. Hebrews 10:25 is written for the individual. 2 Thessalonians 2:15 is written for the congregation.

I am just trying to be reasonable and I might be wrong. I talk to people who seem to think they can't be wrong about their own Bible interpretation. Jehovah's Witness even say so. Some have said that they can't believe they are wrong about hermeneutics because they believe in God and God would not allow a misleading.
 
Michael in Hebrew means "One who is like God" Arch means "chief" Angel is the Greek word angelos and it means messenger.

Jesus was the chief messenger who is like God. If you go to Rev 12:7 we have Michael and his messengers fighting the war against Satan. The word war was translated from a Greek word meaning "an aggressive refuting of ones ideas or principles". God's messengers are the Prophets. The Prophets and Jesus are fighting Satan's lies The Prophets by their testimony in Scripture and Jesus who was the word that became flesh.

HEBREWS 1 : 1 "In the past god spoke to our forefathers through the Prophets at many times and in various ways, but in the last days he has spoken to us by his Son.

EXODUS 3 : 2-5 "There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire..............................When the lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, Moses! Moses!..........Take off your sandals for the place where you are standing is holy ground."

REVELATION 19 : 11-14 "a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and true...........His eyes are like blazing fire...................The armies of heaven were following him."

JOSHUA 5 : 14&15 "Neither, he replied, 'but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.' Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, 'What MESSAGE does my Lord have for his servant?' The commander of the Lord's army replied, "Take off your sandals for the place where you are standing is holy."

DANIEL 10 : 13 "Then Michael, one of the chief princes"
Plural in Hebrew without a number is taken as two. Two princes in God's kingdom. God is the King. Jesus and the Spirit are the princes.

ZECHARIAH 12 : 8 "the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord."

HOSEA 12 : 3 "as a man he struggled with God. He struggled with the angel and overcame him."

REVELATION 22 ; 8&9 "I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. But he said to me, 'do not do it! I am a fellow servant"

I wanted to show only the archangel was worshiped. Gideon worshiped the angel (messenger) of the Lord. Calling Jesus michael no more makes him a created being than calling him the Son of Man. I hope this helps.
 

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
Hi Mountain,

Can you prove in details that Jesus and Michael the Archangel are one and the same person?

Thanks
I already told you that what I presented in that post is all the proof there is. Now if you understand anything about how the design God used in creating this earth parallels those heavenly things then use it to your advantage, for that is really all there is.
 
Last edited:

psychoslice

Veteran Member
I think we can apply the consciousness of the Christ to many people from the bible, Jesus the man showed his higher Consciousness, and preached from that Consciousness, as also many others have. There is many even today who speak from their higher Consciousness, call it the Christ, the Buddha, the Krishna, whatever name you give it, its not that, its far beyond the mere names or labels, unfortunately, many have taken just one person who spoke from their higher Consciousness and made a god of him or her.
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
I already told you that what I presented in that post is all the proof there is. Now if you understand anything about how the design God used in creating this earth parallels those heavenly things then use it to your advantage, for that is really all there is.
Ok. I 'll just check it out and get back to you.

Thanks
 

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
Michael in Hebrew means "One who is like God" Arch means "chief" Angel is the Greek word angelos and it means messenger.

Jesus was the chief messenger who is like God. If you go to Rev 12:7 we have Michael and his messengers fighting the war against Satan. The word war was translated from a Greek word meaning "an aggressive refuting of ones ideas or principles". God's messengers are the Prophets. The Prophets and Jesus are fighting Satan's lies The Prophets by their testimony in Scripture and Jesus who was the word that became flesh.

HEBREWS 1 : 1 "In the past god spoke to our forefathers through the Prophets at many times and in various ways, but in the last days he has spoken to us by his Son.

EXODUS 3 : 2-5 "There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire..............................When the lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, Moses! Moses!..........Take off your sandals for the place where you are standing is holy ground."

REVELATION 19 : 11-14 "a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and true...........His eyes are like blazing fire...................The armies of heaven were following him."

JOSHUA 5 : 14&15 "Neither, he replied, 'but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.' Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, 'What MESSAGE does my Lord have for his servant?' The commander of the Lord's army replied, "Take off your sandals for the place where you are standing is holy."

DANIEL 10 : 13 "Then Michael, one of the chief princes"
Plural in Hebrew without a number is taken as two. Two princes in God's kingdom. God is the King. Jesus and the Spirit are the princes.

ZECHARIAH 12 : 8 "the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord."

HOSEA 12 : 3 "as a man he struggled with God. He struggled with the angel and overcame him."

REVELATION 22 ; 8&9 "I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. But he said to me, 'do not do it! I am a fellow servant"

I wanted to show only the archangel was worshiped. Gideon worshiped the angel (messenger) of the Lord. Calling Jesus michael no more makes him a created being than calling him the Son of Man. I hope this helps.
You haven't shown anything there that proves whether Michael was a created being or not. You have simply insisted that falling face down constitutes worship which you suppose is forbidden to be rendered anyone but God himself. And the huge failure of that idea is that people are shown to bow face down to even flesh and blood kings and woman to their husbands. You are taking a cultural tradition and interposing it with the worship God was speaking of as reserved to himself. The worship God was speaking of is differentiated from such mere acts of honor in that this worship of God is commanded to be an exclusive devotion in the sense that his word over-rules the command of all others.

When a king speaks in support of God's word there is no conflict when one pays homage to that king for all is directed through that king to the Father of heaven and earth.

The account in Revelation chapter 22 is understandable in that John, never having seen God in person, likely thought that angel was God. And that angel set him straight on the matter.
 
Last edited:

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Michael in Hebrew means "One who is like God" Arch means "chief" Angel is the Greek word angelos and it means messenger.

Jesus was the chief messenger who is like God. If you go to Rev 12:7 we have Michael and his messengers fighting the war against Satan. The word war was translated from a Greek word meaning "an aggressive refuting of ones ideas or principles". God's messengers are the Prophets. The Prophets and Jesus are fighting Satan's lies The Prophets by their testimony in Scripture and Jesus who was the word that became flesh.

HEBREWS 1 : 1 "In the past god spoke to our forefathers through the Prophets at many times and in various ways, but in the last days he has spoken to us by his Son.

EXODUS 3 : 2-5 "There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire..............................When the lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, Moses! Moses!..........Take off your sandals for the place where you are standing is holy ground."

REVELATION 19 : 11-14 "a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and true...........His eyes are like blazing fire...................The armies of heaven were following him."

JOSHUA 5 : 14&15 "Neither, he replied, 'but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.' Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, 'What MESSAGE does my Lord have for his servant?' The commander of the Lord's army replied, "Take off your sandals for the place where you are standing is holy."

DANIEL 10 : 13 "Then Michael, one of the chief princes"
Plural in Hebrew without a number is taken as two. Two princes in God's kingdom. God is the King. Jesus and the Spirit are the princes.

ZECHARIAH 12 : 8 "the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord."

HOSEA 12 : 3 "as a man he struggled with God. He struggled with the angel and overcame him."

REVELATION 22 ; 8&9 "I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. But he said to me, 'do not do it! I am a fellow servant"

I wanted to show only the archangel was worshiped. Gideon worshiped the angel (messenger) of the Lord. Calling Jesus michael no more makes him a created being than calling him the Son of Man. I hope this helps.
Hi Ron,

Exodus 3:2-4
2. And the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed.
3. So Moses said, "I must turn aside now, and see this marvelous sight, why the bush is not burned up."
4. When the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush, and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am."


It is a kind of a tricky context when we connote that the angel of the Lord appeared to Moses become an angel to be worshiped. I believe it is logical that God used His angels as the messenger, the one who appeared before men to convey message from the Lord God. If we separate the angel and God in their appearance before men, we may truly acknowledge if angels are really to be worshiped. Let see the following scriptures:

Joshua 5:14-15
14. And he said, "No, rather I indeed come now as captain of the host of the Lord." And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and bowed down, and said to him, "What has my lord to say to his servant?"
15. And the captain of the Lord's host said to Joshua, "Remove your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy." And Joshua did so.


This is another case where preincarnate Christ—a theopany. Joshua will not bow down if He was just an angel. Let us see an examples below:

Rev. 22:8-9
8. And I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9. And he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book; worship God."


Rev. 19:10
10. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."


The worship is pointed to God and not angels. The angel should not mentioned the phrase “Worship God,” if they are (really) to be worshipped.

Acts 14:11-15
11. And when the multitudes saw what Paul had done, they raised their voice, saying in the Lycaonian language, "The gods have become like men and have come down to us."
12. And they began calling Barnabas, Zeus, and Paul, Hermes, because he was the chief speaker.
13. And the priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates, and wanted to offer sacrifice with the crowds.
14. But when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out
15. and saying, "Men, why are you doing these things? We are also men of the same nature as you, and preach the gospel to you in order that you should turn from these vain
See how Paul refuted and disagree on how the people in Lyconia treated them as gods.

Heb. 1:5-6
5. For to which of the angels did He ever say,
"Thou art My Son, And again,
6. And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says,
"And let all the angels of God worship Him."

If angels are not to be worshiped, the belief that the Son of God (Jesus) is Archangel Michael will not pass and contradict with this scripture.

Thanks
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
It is presumptuous to make claims that cannot be clearly supported in the scriptures. That is a given.


Using role play I assumed the position of one who believes that Jesus and Michael the Archangel are one in the same person, just in different roles. My conclusions:


The multiple chief princes are roles in relation to the appointment of certain angels to the oversight of certain nations of this earth as in the chief prince of Persia. A chief or arch prince is and entirely different thing than is an archangel. There is only one appointed head over all of the angels.

In relation to God's people, God gave them the highest ranking angel, the chief of all the angels (the one and only archangel) as their princely overseer. (It should be noted here that non-Biblical sources which reference more than one archangel (more than one chief over the angels) are of pagan origin or influenced heavily of pagan concepts and it is an egregious sin to adulterate their content into our holy scriptures even by way of oral speculation. Lastly, Satan appointed himself as such an archangel in defiance of God but in our holy scriptures Satan clearly remains subordinate to Michael, whom our holy scriptures identify as the chief over all angels.)


Is Jesus one and the same person as Michael the Archangel? The most direct evidence in our holy scriptures which points to the answer being yes, is found in the design of mankind in the image of the heavenly.
If that will be the case that they are the same person, how come an angel is the Saviour of our sins. Let us check with these verses:

Phil. 2:9-11
9. Therefore also God highly exalted Him (Jesus), and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10. that at the name of Archangel Michael every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth,
11. and that every tongue should confess that Archangel Michael is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Are the angels other than Michael God too? Is Archangel Michael a begotten Son? How come he is?

Adam was the son of God in the physical realm, in image of the son of God in the heavenly realm.


The first born son of God, both the one in the heavenly realm and the one in the physical realm, was created in the perfect image of God. ( And it is absurdity to argue the meaning of the word, "born". Leave that for the ignorant to debate that they may think themselves intelligent. "Born", is a word of broad utility.)


In the image of God, Adam would be that image of God to all who were born or made or procreated through him, even as Jesus is declared to be the image of God over all who are born or made or procreated through him. God the Father is always the creator and the sons can do no more than procreate using the power supplied them of the Father. The word "father" is like the word "create" in the ancient Biblical texts in that just as there was no specific word for "grandfather" neither is there a specific word for "procreate". These are simple enough for us to figure out apart from having specific words for them. And in the Greek, "en", meaning "in", and the preposition "dia", meaning "through", demands the understanding that Jesus was and is the one that all things were procreated "through", while his Father is the creator of all things "in" Jesus. Now enliven your brains to ponder that:


Speaking of the Son: Colossians 1:16 "For en him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created dia him, and for him.."


And here we see that stated more directly: Ephesians 3:9 "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things dia<(through) Jesus Christ.."


As to this earth and man, it can be said that it was God who created the rest of us in and through Adam. And that is the image of what took place in heaven.


How does that support that Jesus and Michael the Archangel are likely one and the same person? The angels are God's heavenly family and Michael is their head evidently in and through whom they were procreated, even as Adam was created in the image of heavenly things, our head, in and through whom we were procreated.


The expression "procreate" does not have to be confined to physical sex like so many pea brains seem to think. "Procreate" infers God doing the creating in and through.
How would you reconcile John 1:1 with your procreated Archangel Michael and Jesus Christ in their existence?

Sticking to the holy scriptures so as to be secure in the reliability of the information as bearing God's seal, that is the closest anyone can come for now to a precise answer.


My conclusion is that I agree with Jehovah's Witnesses that Jesus and Michael the Archangel are one and the same person.

Heb. 2:16
16. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

How would you reconcile this verse? This is proving that Jesus never took on him the nature of angels. A big contradiction.

Thanks





 

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
If that will be the case that they are the same person, how come an angel is the Saviour of our sins. Let us check with these verses:

Phil. 2:9-11
9. Therefore also God highly exalted Him (Jesus), and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10. that at the name of Archangel Michael every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth,
11. and that every tongue should confess that Archangel Michael is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Are the angels other than Michael God too? Is Archangel Michael a begotten Son? How come he is?


How would you reconcile John 1:1 with your procreated Archangel Michael and Jesus Christ in their existence?


Heb. 2:16
16. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

How would you reconcile this verse? This is proving that Jesus never took on him the nature of angels. A big contradiction.


Thanks
First off, I don't really try to reconcile anything concerning the subject as I don't consider it worth anything other than for people who like to argue to have something to argue about.

But, since you asked, I would reconcile Hebrews 2:16 in the following manner: Hebrews 2:16 "For verily not to angels doth he give help, but he giveth help to the seed of Abraham." (ASV)

I am sorry for you that your KJV so grossly mistranslated that verse but that was not my fault. I didn't do it. The words, " him the nature of", are complete additions to that text. Your KJV translators, being Trinity believers, desired what was there said to be about his nature and so they made it out to be even though it isn't so.

John 1:1 fits just fine with the image of God and the son of God that the scriptures very clearly say Jesus is and just as Adam clearly was. Sorry if that troubles you.

And as for your first line, that is just pure nonsensical sarcasm. I don't debate ignorance.

Added: I should have explained that what Hebrews 2:16 is in reference to a prophecy saying that God would send us help. This is what the ASV translators realized but the bias of the KJV translators caused of their Trinity belief blinded them from seeing. But it was not to those fallen angels that God sent that help, it was to the seed of Abraham, a man.
 
Last edited:
Top