JW's Jesus is Archangel Michael?

[Yoshua]

I think this is reasonable.

I believe in Jesus Christ, son of God, my savior. My position? I do not know. What does it mean?
Jay is an ultra-conservative JW, imo. I was baptized a JW and was taught the Bible by JWs but I am convinced they are nothing like "the truth" like they say they are.

Thanks for your reply. So, you are a JW, but I look at you as different from the other JW's that I met. It seems that you are open to my explanation. Do you believe that Archangel Michael is really Jesus Christ? Did you already studied this doctrine as JW?

Thanks

 

[Mountain_Climber]

It is presumptuous to make claims that cannot be clearly supported in the scriptures. That is a given.


Using role play I assumed the position of one who believes that Jesus and Michael the Archangel are one in the same person, just in different roles. My conclusions:


The multiple chief princes are roles in relation to the appointment of certain angels to the oversight of certain nations of this earth as in the chief prince of Persia. A chief or arch prince is and entirely different thing than is an archangel. There is only one appointed head over all of the angels.

In relation to God's people, God gave them the highest ranking angel, the chief of all the angels (the one and only archangel) as their princely overseer. (It should be noted here that non-Biblical sources which reference more than one archangel (more than one chief over the angels) are of pagan origin or influenced heavily of pagan concepts and it is an egregious sin to adulterate their content into our holy scriptures even by way of oral speculation. Lastly, Satan appointed himself as such an archangel in defiance of God but in our holy scriptures Satan clearly remains subordinate to Michael, whom our holy scriptures identify as the chief over all angels.)


Is Jesus one and the same person as Michael the Archangel? The most direct evidence in our holy scriptures which points to the answer being yes, is found in the design of mankind in the image of the heavenly.


Adam was the son of God in the physical realm, in image of the son of God in the heavenly realm.


The first born son of God, both the one in the heavenly realm and the one in the physical realm, was created in the perfect image of God. ( And it is absurdity to argue the meaning of the word, "born". Leave that for the ignorant to debate that they may think themselves intelligent. "Born", is a word of broad utility.)


In the image of God, Adam would be that image of God to all who were born or made or procreated through him, even as Jesus is declared to be the image of God over all who are born or made or procreated through him. God the Father is always the creator and the sons can do no more than procreate using the power supplied them of the Father. The word "father" is like the word "create" in the ancient Biblical texts in that just as there was no specific word for "grandfather" neither is there a specific word for "procreate". These are simple enough for us to figure out apart from having specific words for them. And in the Greek, "en", meaning "in", and the preposition "dia", meaning "through", demands the understanding that Jesus was and is the one that all things were procreated "through", while his Father is the creator of all things "in" Jesus. Now enliven your brains to ponder that:


Speaking of the Son: Colossians 1:16 "For en him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created dia him, and for him.."


And here we see that stated more directly: Ephesians 3:9 "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things dia<(through) Jesus Christ.."


As to this earth and man, it can be said that it was God who created the rest of us in and through Adam. And that is the image of what took place in heaven.


How does that support that Jesus and Michael the Archangel are likely one and the same person? The angels are God's heavenly family and Michael is their head evidently in and through whom they were procreated, even as Adam was created in the image of heavenly things, our head, in and through whom we were procreated.


The expression "procreate" does not have to be confined to physical sex like so many pea brains seem to think. "Procreate" infers God doing the creating in and through.



Sticking to the holy scriptures so as to be secure in the reliability of the information as bearing God's seal, that is the closest anyone can come for now to a precise answer.


My conclusion is that I agree with Jehovah's Witnesses that Jesus and Michael the Archangel are one and the same person.

 

[savagewind]

Thanks for your reply. So, you are a JW, but I look at you as different from the other JW's that I met. It seems that you are open to my explanation.

Thanks

JWs will say that I am not a JW. Also, only people who report time spent proselytizing for The Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses are considered a part of their group.

Do you believe that Archangel Michael is really Jesus Christ? Did you already studied this doctrine as JW?

I was not an average JW. When I was studying with them I considered myself a Bible student so I only took to heart and taught the JW dogma that I understood, which wasn't much. I did not believe Michael is really Jesus Christ, but I didn't worry about it and the Watchtower did not seem to make much of an issue of it.

 

[savagewind]

It is presumptuous to make claims that cannot be clearly supported in the scriptures. That is a given.


Using role play I assumed the position of one who believes that Jesus and Michael the Archangel are one in the same person, just in different roles. My conclusions:


The multiple chief princes are roles in relation to the appointment of certain angels to the oversight of certain nations of this earth as in the chief prince of Persia. A chief or arch prince is and entirely different thing than is an archangel. There is only one appointed head over all of the angels.

In relation to God's people, God gave them the highest ranking angel, the chief of all the angels (the one and only archangel) as their princely overseer. (It should be noted here that non-Biblical sources which reference more than one archangel (more than one chief over the angels) are of pagan origin or influenced heavily of pagan concepts and it is an egregious sin to adulterate their content into our holy scriptures even by way of oral speculation. Lastly, Satan appointed himself as such an archangel in defiance of God but in our holy scriptures Satan clearly remains subordinate to Michael, whom our holy scriptures identify as the chief over all angels.)


Is Jesus one and the same person as Michael the Archangel? The most direct evidence in our holy scriptures which points to the answer being yes, is found in the design of mankind in the image of the heavenly.


Adam was the son of God in the physical realm, in image of the son of God in the heavenly realm.


The first born son of God, both the one in the heavenly realm and the one in the physical realm, was created in the perfect image of God. ( And it is absurdity to argue the meaning of the word, "born". Leave that for the ignorant to debate that they may think themselves intelligent. "Born", is a word of broad utility.)


In the image of God, Adam would be that image of God to all who were born or made or procreated through him, even as Jesus is declared to be the image of God over all who are born or made or procreated through him. God the Father is always the creator and the sons can do no more than procreate using the power supplied them of the Father. The word "father" is like the word "create" in the ancient Biblical texts in that just as there was no specific word for "grandfather" neither is there a specific word for "procreate". These are simple enough for us to figure out apart from having specific words for them. And in the Greek, "en", meaning "in", and the preposition "dia", meaning "through", demands the understanding that Jesus was and is the one that all things were procreated "through", while his Father is the creator of all things "in" Jesus. Now enliven your brains to ponder that:


Speaking of the Son: Colossians 1:16 "For en him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created dia him, and for him.."


And here we see that stated more directly: Ephesians 3:9 "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things dia<(through) Jesus Christ.."


As to this earth and man, it can be said that it was God who created the rest of us in and through Adam. And that is the image of what took place in heaven.


How does that support that Jesus and Michael the Archangel are likely one and the same person? The angels are God's heavenly family and Michael is their head evidently in and through whom they were procreated, even as Adam was created in the image of heavenly things, our head, in and through whom we were procreated.


The expression "procreate" does not have to be confined to physical sex like so many pea brains seem to think. "Procreate" infers God doing the creating in and through.



Sticking to the holy scriptures so as to be secure in the reliability of the information as bearing God's seal, that is the closest anyone can come for now to a precise answer.


My conclusion is that I agree with Jehovah's Witnesses that Jesus and Michael the Archangel are one and the same person.

The meaning of Michael is who is like God, " a rhetorical question implying no person is like God". http://www.behindthename.com/name/michael

Jesus is like God. Believers in Michael being Jesus is making Jesus a liar. Aren't they?

Also, I am hearing that if Michael is really Jesus then Jesus is really God.

Only God can say "nobody is like me" imo.

 

[savagewind]

As a matter of fact, the way people say God will judge (even though the Bible says he won't) is making God Michael who is leading the righteous in the war against the unrighteous.

 

[savagewind]

It seems Michael, meaning who is like god, disagrees with scripture which says Jesus, even Man, is like God. Is Michael Satan in an image of light? 2 Corinthians 11:14

But Satan DOES stand up for God's people. Doesn't he? Can you prove he doesn't?

 

[Mountain_Climber]

The meaning of Michael is who is like God, " a rhetorical question implying no person is like God". http://www.behindthename.com/name/michael

Jesus is like God. Believers in Michael being Jesus is making Jesus a liar. Aren't they?

Also, I am hearing that if Michael is really Jesus then Jesus is really God.

Only God can say "nobody is like me" imo.

Genesis 1:26 proves that is a load of rubbish.

You have audacity indeed to read that sort of extremism into the scripture. It clearly means that the bearer of the name Michael is one who is like God.

 

[savagewind]

Genesis 1:26 proves that is a load of rubbish.

You have audacity indeed to read that sort of extremism into the scripture. It clearly means that the bearer of the name Michael is one who is like God.

OH! Interesting. What does the majority say? Do more than 10% say that it is a statement of fact? Of course you don't know that but I wonder how many?

 

[Mountain_Climber]

As a matter of fact, the way people say God will judge (even though the Bible says he won't) is making God Michael who is leading the righteous in the war against the unrighteous.

Can you read?
John 5:30 "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

 

[savagewind]

Can you read?
John 5:30 "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

Thank you.
Actually scripture says Jesus saying "my word is what will judge".

 

[Mountain_Climber]

OH! Interesting. What does the majority say? Do more than 10% say that it is a statement of fact? Of course you don't know that but I wonder how many?

What does the majority have to do with the price of tea in China?

Who cares what the majority thinks? The majority serve their own bellies.

 

[savagewind]

What does the majority have to do with the price of tea in China?

Who cares what the majority thinks? The majority serve their own bellies.

You are picking on me for thinking it is a rhetorical question. I do not know what it is. You seem to know. How do you know Michael means "like God"?

 

[savagewind]

I think the name Michael means a challenge. That is why it might possibly mean satan.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Thank you.
Actually scripture says Jesus saying "my word is what will judge".

That is what a judge does.

A judge uses Law to judge.

Whose word is Law? God's word is Law.

So Jesus judges using God's word instead of his own personal opinion.

In other words he is telling you that he judges impartially and fairly.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

I think the name Michael means a challenge. That is why it might possibly mean satan.

Well it is high time you stopped thinking then.

Oh, wait. Apparently you already did.

 

[savagewind]

That is what a judge does.

A judge uses Law to judge.

Whose word is Law? God's word is Law.

So Jesus judges using God's word instead of his own personal opinion.

Is it OK if I disagree? John 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

 

[savagewind]

Well it is high time you stopped thinking then.

You will be a JW soon I fear.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Is it OK if I disagree? John 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

Disagree away.

That won't change the fact that you can reject the judge on your local court's bench but that won't stop the word of the Law he uses from yet judging you if you are a violator of it.

 

[savagewind]

Disagree away.

That won't change the fact that you can reject the judge on your local court's bench but that won't stop the word of the Law he uses from yet judging you if you are a violator of it.

Jesus' parables are not law. OK?

 

[Mountain_Climber]

You will be a JW soon I fear.

I am already a witness for Jehovah in union with God's Son.