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JW's Jesus is Archangel Michael?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Yoshua, Jul 8, 2015.

  1. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    Good point! I have asked Jehovah's Witnesses how any member of the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses can consider themself "least" of Christ's brothers, but nobody has answered that. For goodness sakes they profess to be the only ones who can hear and understand God's messages. That means greatest not least.
     
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  2. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    Yes Jehovah is salvation, he is the only power in existence. He does it through Jesus( Acts 2:22
     
  3. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    Gods word shows it the way it is written--you are just twisting it to say what you want it to say.
     
  4. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    no, false reasoning within yourself does that.
     
  5. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    Please explain how "I" am twisting anything, I just quoted what you said. You said, "Michael and Jesus are the same being, was there a Jesus ever mentioned in the OT? No" That is what "YOU" said. So according to your logic, there was no Jesus in the OT, it was Michael in the beginning with God, not Jesus. The role, or name, or what ever else you want to call it, of Jesus did not exist in the beginning, Michael did.

    Mat 1:20-21 (ESVST) 21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."

    In your logic, neither the role, the name or the person of Jesus existed until He was born. So please explain how "HE" created all things.
     
  6. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    It really amazes me how JW's will believe that the GB are really the slave because of this question.

    Mat 24:45 (ESVST) 45 "Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time?

    And it amazes me how they come to actually believe that this statement means Jesus is Michael.

    1Th 4:15-16 (ESVST) 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God.

    How can anyone build doctrines on one verse? And one of those verses is a question! Are there any other verses to validate these doctrines?
     
  7. Yoshua

    Yoshua Well-Known Member

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    Hi Savagewind,

    In my post no. 304 & 305, those are my pending questions to Jay. I believe that he already left the RF. Kindly check it out.

    Thanks
     
  8. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    It seems like a broad subject. The men who become governing body members believe the interpretation of both the ot and nt is reserved for them alone. Are you asking how JWs connect the new with the old? The connection is Jesus Christ.


    JWs believe that by their preaching people get separated into two groups. The sheep believe them and the goats don't.


    The JWs fashion themselves after the early Christian congregation.



    Nobody does imo.

    They can't see that though it is real.
    I am surprised that you despite your attitude of superiority do not discern that this kind of arguing is forbidden.
     
  9. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    I tried to answer #304 (see above) It looks like #305 is arguing Jesus Christ vs God. I do not do that. They do, but Jay (a lady) might have you on ignore and she is gone, and I do not blame her.
     
  10. Yoshua

    Yoshua Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. I thought she is a man. Anyway, I'll get back to you for my reply.
     
  11. Yoshua

    Yoshua Well-Known Member

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    Not really. According to our discussion, we confirmed that the JW organization started by Russell and his group. They discovered what is happening in Christendom, they seek and investigated and started the JW organization. This is what Jay stated:

    And that is just what happened. The apostles had only the Hebrew Scriptures.....we have their writings and the Christian "traditions" handed down by them is I n the Christian scriptures, not in the traditions of an apostate church system. Do you understand the difference? By Jay

    “They undertook a careful study of the scriptures to see if Christendom's doctrines stood up to scrutiny. They basically dismissed all prior knowledge and started from scratch. They allowed the Bible itself to teach them under the direction of God's spirit.
    From their studies, they concluded that the core doctrines of Christendom were not scriptural. The 'cleansing and refining' foretold by Daniel, had begun......but like all refining work, it was a process of bringing the impurities to the surface and eliminating them, one by one.”By Jay


    What I would like to know if how the JW will reconcile the validity of Russell findings or investigation in relation to the Bible and the teachings of Jesus Christ?
    Russell did their investigation last 1800’s in compared with the time of Christ last 2,000 years ago.

    I would like to clarify the relationship between the saved and unsaved in the end of the age with the JW organization that was started by Russell and his group.

    After early Christian congregation, what is the date or year? How will you reconcile the duration of the early Christian congregation and the Russell groups last 1800’s?

    I’m just asking in a logical way of question and explained the result of the consequence. How I do question? Can you cite an example what is not forbidden so I may modify?

    Thanks
     
  12. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    A real quick answer for you is they believe in progressing light. They seem to believe that all people who will keep searching for righteousness will eventually become Jehovah's Witnesses like they are. They do not follow Russells's teachings. They believe no one else is a real searcher of truth if that person won't agree with their way because they keep saying they alone "will be corrected". According to them we are not interested in learning the truth about Jehovah and Jesus and their evidence is we are not with them.
    Your question, 'how are the teachings of Russell and scripture reconciled' is not moot with them. Russell was the beginning of their group. That is all.

    An idea I just had. Paul was given a revelation of the truth in one day. They do not believe that is how God works now.
     
  13. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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  14. Yoshua

    Yoshua Well-Known Member

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    The statement that they did not follow Russell's teaching is quite blurred to me. If we may ask them, that they will continue to believe the Scripture without Russell, and do do they (will) believe without Russell? I believe they surely will not agree with it. If they believe that Russell is the searcher of truth, then Martin Luther and other Reformers is also considered a searcher of truth. But take a look with their differences on how they delivered with their searching, Luther enlightened with the truth but we are not conformed to his writings. He did not add any doctrine that is contrary with the Scripture while for Russell, he formulated a teachings that becomes one of the JW's foundation. We don't look at Knox, Luther, Calvin as our foundation of the teachings of Christ, but as our brothers who awakened in God's truth, and saw the truth under the bondage of Roman Catholicism including the practices that is not biblical.

    If I'm right, I remember that you told me that you're a JW but not the same JW like Jay. So, what is your faith now and your position?
     
  15. Mountain_Climber

    Mountain_Climber Active Member

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    Apples and oranges.

    That has nothing to do with the point if you would but think it through. We are speaking about inherited sin nature and not about the loss of sanctification through the parent.

    Inherited sin nature means the child is born having sin's nature already incorporated into it's person. That is an entirely different matter than is sanctification through having clean parents. If your father and mother were kicked out of a country and you were as a consequence born out of that country, then you would not be born with any right to citizenship in that country. And that is not due to defect in you. It is based solely on the fact that your father and mother could not qualify you for that citizenship.

    But keep up with the objections in resistance of accepting the truth that the teaching of an inborn inherited sin nature is a false man-made doctrine. It would seem that the sheer fact you don't find that expression used in the scripture anywhere would be enough but apparently it isn't for many. Yes, the scriptures can be twisted and misrepresented so as to make it seem that the concept is there. But that will never make it actually be there in truth.

    Why do you resist that Paul clearly said that by one man sin ENTERED THE WORLD? Romans 5:12

    Is an infants body the world in your mind?
     
    #375 Mountain_Climber, Jul 30, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2015
  16. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    Oranges and apples.

    Rom 3:22-23 (ESVST) For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. (There is no distinction between kids and adults, wouldn't this be the perfect place to make that distinction?)

    Rom 3:9-12 (ESVST) 10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one. (Another great place to make that distinction)


    Is there a verse or teaching in the Bible that teaches the age of accountability or that an infant is sanctified by his/her parents? Why did God have all the children in the cities of the OT killed along with the adults? Did He have innocent children killed?
     
  17. Mountain_Climber

    Mountain_Climber Active Member

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    An infant has not had time to make the choices upon which it would stand or fall as to the glory of God.

    Righteous is as righteous does or can you not even figure that out for yourself? And again an infant has had not time to do.

    Like the total contradiction in your closing question here. Your point in the first part goes totally opposite what you were driving at in second part. But the why is that the child is the ward of it's parent. The child is the responsibility of the parent. The same reason we die because Adam sinned. As Levi made tithes to Melchizedek while in Abraham's loins we can be said to have sinned while in Adam's loins. That merely credits the fact that we would be bound to eventually do so anyway.

    Where you miss the boat is that you are like those who think that if we could have gone on from birth to never commit sin then that would mean God would have to let us live forever. But the covenant of life was not made with us. That covenant was made with the one who lost it. And when he lost it he lost it for all that was his. Adam as the son of God was the image of Jesus in whom all things exist. Just as the last Adam has now become the holder of our covenant of life, the first Adam held that covenant of life with God that we might have life in him. But the first holder of that covenant with God on our behalf lost it so that we needed a new covenant bearer to replace him. Thus came the last Adam.

    If after he obtained it and before having children Jacob had lost the right to the covenant with him as Israel, there would have been no covenant with Israel. God would have had to seek out a new covenant bearer and the covenant would have been given to that new covenant bearer's children instead of Jacob's children.

    You evidently do not fully appreciate just how great God's mercy was even to let Adam's children live. You seem to think God owes you something when the fact is that we owe him and he us us nothing at all. He never did owe man anything and never will.
     
    #377 Mountain_Climber, Jul 30, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2015
  18. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    So you're implying that, if a child, born to unbelieving parents, dies before he/she can understand and accept the ransom of Jesus, that child is condemned because his/her parents are condemned. But if a child is born to believing parents, that child is sanctified by his/her parents?
     
  19. Mountain_Climber

    Mountain_Climber Active Member

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    The same as the children and infants were put to death along with their parents in many of the nations God destroyed throughout history.

    I also know that the principal reason this truth has been avoided is that this seems out of whack as compared to man's sense of justice. But the reality is that it isn't a violation of justice. The justice of this world and thus our reference with which we gloat in ourselves and make comparisons to God is what is out of whack.

    Who is going to call God to an accounting for it? He creates life and he reserves the full say over life to himself.

    1 Samuel 15:3 "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***."

    He has his reasons and it is ours only to obey him that this happens to none of us and ours.

    The self-righteous man would dare to challenge him to his own defeat. Many of them would even exclaim that they would rather die than serve a God who is like that. Too bad for them.

    But once he restores this earth to holiness it will stay that way by virtue of who and how he is. He then will tolerate nothing further from us by way of our unappreciative rebellions. And when God wipes this earth clean of the wicked their infants will die with them.

    When one takes what is said at places as Ezekiel 18 out of context one can wrongly conclude that God would not be so harsh a judge. But what is said there does not negate the following:
    Exodus 20:5 "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.."

    What need be maintained in mind when pondering that of Ezekiel 18 is that God is there speaking of how he treats a nation that has loved and obeyed him and what is said applies to the individual conduct of the members of such a nation that loves and obeys him.
     
    #379 Mountain_Climber, Jul 30, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2015
  20. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    I think this is reasonable.

    I believe in Jesus Christ, son of God, my savior. My position? I do not know. What does it mean?
    Jay is an ultra-conservative JW, imo. I was baptized a JW and was taught the Bible by JWs but I am convinced they are nothing like "the truth" like they say they are.
     
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