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Featured JW and people's safety

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Unveiled Artist, Oct 7, 2020.

  1. Vee

    Vee Well-Known Member
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    Our organization decided against it, and I trust there must be a good reason for that.
     
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  2. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I believe that's a huge generalization since everyone's health situation is different. I personally rather see a loved one lived based on his health and doctors advice than say "most doctors..." type of thing. I can't imagine letting a loved one die because it didn't work for other people. If it didn't work, there'd be no reason to suggest it or even have the treatment. Also, it depends on where one is from and the types of medical expertise one has to do these types of treatment. Localized opinion, maybe? But dependent on the situation.

    Are there other treatments JW disagree with?
     
  3. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Yeah. I live in a senior/disability complex so we're not allowed to have LW, LDS, and other solicitors, etc, etc in the building. We did have one lady who was interested in becoming JW. We talked a lot and asked me questions no christian in all my life asked or even interested in knowing. Though, generalizations don't make facts, there are countless people who really dont care for proselytizing. It's one thing to say no, when JW asks, it's another to know it's wrong without needing to ask and getting a rejection. I guess some people have a sense of respecting other people's space and privacy. Of course they tell about christ in other ways but ideally not in a manor that imposes on other people's "space."
     
  4. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I just find it odd that option is not considered if it is the best one that would save a loved ones life. Of course there are other options, but I am sure there are cases that that's not true. Some religions do let people die for sake of their religious belief saying that its meant for god to save and heal a person not doctors. I can kinda understand it being a personal decision but a biblical decision. That pretty much stretches B.C. medical views with 21st century views. Interesting
     
  5. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    That would mean if you know you do not have the virus, you don't need a mask?

    A lot of people wear masks for themselves because they don't know who has the virus. Unless a person all of the sudden feel they can be asymptomatic without any risk factors involved, there's no sense in wearing the mask-if people should wear it for others.

    In doctors offices etc usually doctors don't come to work or so have you when they are sick. Or. For example if the patient has an immune disease that germs are a threat to their lives that a normal immune system can handle. So wearing mask for others makes sense. Since this case there's so many X factors, why wouldn't one wear mask for themselves? Fear isn't a weakness. Its animal instinct.
     
    #45 Unveiled Artist, Oct 9, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2020
  6. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Sorry. I can't seem to wrap my head around your argument, since it seems to be ignoring two things. 1) Your claim that someone let someone die, is false. 2) You are evidently ignoring one practice, with the belief that another practice is the right practice.

    Thus you make two assumptions, and declare them factual.
    Therefore, you seem to be making an argument for a position of, "I believe A. A is true. So I am arguing from the position that what I believe is true regardless if it is not. So I don't want to hear B, or C, or anything else other than A".

    With such a position, anything that is said to you, if it is not A, passes through one ear, and out the next, without any processing.
    How can I help you, then?
    I can only do so, if you acknowledge what is said, and weight it against what you said.

    So I think you would need to first explain how seeking medical care for a 'patient' means letting them die.
     
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  7. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    If there are no other options but blood transfusions, and doctors agree to this based on the patients situation, then that patient would die if they didn't receive this treatment. In this analogy, if JW was faced by this situation with no other safer options available, do they ask for a medical waiver to let god take care of the patient when he dies instead?
     
  8. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes people don't care for something, because they fail to see how it benefits them.
    For example, many, many children don't care for discipline, or rules, and restrictions, because they don't see how it benefits them.

    However, some come to the realization, or begin to wonder if they can benefit in some way, and they have a change of mind.

    JWs cannot know who has a change of mind, or who will have a change of mind, but they have experienced that not fifty, not one hundred, not one thousand or one million, but millions have had a change of mind, and now realize the benefits of something they thought had no benefit.
    If JWs were not there, they ...
    1) could not come to know that the person had a change of mind.
    2) could not be in a position to help the one whose curiosity moved them to have a change of mind.
    3) could not give the person an opportunity to change their mind.

    I have had people personally thank me, for persisting, and not giving up on them, and this has been the case with many JWs. Their persistence is admired and appreciated, even by persons not keen on their teachings.

    Moreover, whether persons want to believe it, or accept it, it has always been God's means of reaching out to people. ". . .whether they listen or refuse to listen... they will certainly know that a prophet was among them. (Ezekiel 2:5)

    We obey God as ruler, rather than man.
    So because most people do not like to hear things that don't sit too well with them, that has nothing to do with what God wants.
    I don't think Noah was quite welcomed. In fact the Bible indicates he wasn't.
    However, regarding what God commissioned, the Bible says, "Noah did just so".

    We are looking for sheep-like ones. Goat-like ones will always be in the majority... until Christ comes with his powerful angels. (Matthew 25:31-33)

    I'm sure you know that because someone has a view about something, that does not mean their view is right.
    Having the view that it is not right to visit people at their homes, does not make it right.
    Many people admire, and appreciate JWs visiting their land, territory, and homes.
    In fact, the work of JWs is very much praised by high officials and others alike.
    Their presence (be it their buildings, or attire) in communities is praised, because of their clean and tidy appearance.

    Though you don't know it, JWs are actually a blessing to countless millions.
    I would like to ask you a question. Do you think Jesus was wrong, for, as you put it, "invading people's space"?

    Luke 8:1 Shortly afterward he traveled from city to city and from village to village, preaching and declaring the good news of the Kingdom of God. And the Twelve were with him,

    Luke 9:6 Then starting out, they went through the territory from village to village, declaring the good news and performing cures everywhere.

    Matthew 10
    5 These 12 Jesus sent out, giving them these instructions:
    11 “Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.
     
  9. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Let me ask... Would you rather take a life, or save one?
    For example, your government says (scenario) You are under compulsion, No ifs, buts or maybes, at the age of nineteen to be drafted into the army, and accept the call of duty, to participate in the war. Now."
    What is your response?
    Would you say, you killed yourself, if you go and get shot to death?

    For those who do not believe in going to war, to kill their neighbor - perhaps a brother, a sister, a cousin... - they refuse. Say the penalty is imprisonment, torture and possible death... If you did die, would you say, you let yourself die?

    Is it not a choice you made, based on your conscience?
     
  10. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    If I believe that blood transfusions are wrong - which I do, why would I go against what I believe just because someone says, predict, assumes I will die?

    Is that not the same thing as believing it is wrong to murder, but then murdering someone because I believe, predict, assume they will kill me?

    They look the same to me.
    No one knows who will die.
    Doctors have predicted the death of patients, and the patients have outlived the doctor.
    The patience, determination, and strong conviction of JWs has won out, by the new understanding of surgeons about blood, and blood transfusions.
    Imagine if Jws had not stood on the side of conscience, and just did like most people - kill and bury their conscience, bloodless surgery, and medicine might have never been heard of.

    This is the same with our preaching activity.
    Our faithfulness at demonstrating our conviction, has resulted in great rewards - millions of faithful disciples throughout the earth, doing what Jesus commanded.

    Nevertheless, the important thing is to stick with what you know your conscience dictates.
    If you are going to be raped, don't assume that sounding the alarm will get you killed. Scream your lungs out.
    Otherwise, you may be raped, and killed, and you are no better off.

    Taking a blood transfusion does not guarantee you will live. You may take the transfusion and die anyway. Did you let yourself die?
     
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  11. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist

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    Also, if they are the ones that reject blood transfusion, then probably they also reject the concept of waivers of medical treatment as acknowledged by God's laws (I certainly do, these are certificates of human cleanliness, not cleanliness before God). This means if the average person now has a medical excuse why they can't come in, chances are they said "screw it" and decided to focus on making sure their own faith understands things rather than getting new converts.

    And to answer the question above, if you had not wanted a blood transfusion, and someone talked you into one and you dtill died, you would have died betraying your principles. Personally, I completely get JW. I'm a anti-masker and an anti-vaxxer. I see both of these as abhorrent.
     
  12. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Someone as in doctors?

    Many people die because of their faith, though.

    No. I don't compare medical treatments to save lives with committing murder.

    I'd say if specialists told me that blood transfusions helped, I would go off what they say. I don't see it different than any other treatment meant for the same purposes.

    I don't see it that way. Of course there is a margin of error in any doctor's prediction. Second and third opinions are always worth the trouble. I don't understand your view, though. Does JW see other treatments in the same view as they do blood transfusion?

    It's one thing to say no because you found a better nonevasive option, but another to say no because "god says so..."?

    If I may. Isn't that like my saying blood transfusions work despite you mentioning those that do not as one foundation for your convictions?

    There are thousands of JW who have not had great rewards from JW evangelization. That doesn't mean some people don't benefit (like people with blood transfusion) it just means that evangelization by those means just isn't an appropriate way to bring people to christ. There are other ways, that particular method is inappropriate.

    How can I say, that's deflecting the point. Not being guaranteed (as with every other treatment doctors give) doesn't mean it won't be a success.

    If there are no other options available than blood transfusions and because of conviction, you said no to specialists, yes. You let that person died.

    As for seeing that as a positive or negative thing, that's up to the person. For you, it may be more god can take care of them now since I made the decision in good faith. To me it's not like that.
     
  13. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Anyone.
    Doctors all say different things.
    Some will tell you take essentials oils internally. Some will tell you don't.
    The doctors opinion does not determine my choice. Thorough research, and a consideration of what I find to be reliable, truthful, and of greater long term benefit, does.

    Yes, I understand that.
    Many of JWs have died for refusing to take sides in politics, and war.
    Even today, one can die from simply refusing to desist from their right to religious and conscientious freedom. ... or even speaking the truth, or what one believes is true. *
    The thing about that is, they died with a clear conscience, and faithful to the God they believe and worship.

    Jesus was the forerunner...
    (John 15:20) . . .Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you. . .

    (Matthew 24:9) “Then people will hand you over to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be hated by all the nations on account of my name.

    ...and we have many witnesses...
    (Acts 7:56-58) . . .” 57 At this they cried out at the top of their voices and put their hands over their ears and rushed at him all together. 58 After throwing him outside the city, they began stoning him. . . .

    (Hebrews 11:13) . . .In faith all of these died, although they did not receive the fulfillment of the promises; but they saw them from a distance and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land.

    * Would you be willing to die for the truth, or would you lie, just to save your life... or try to save it, since you can't guarantee you won't be killed regardless.

    I recall that in the past, specialists actions caused the death of many.
    If only they had listened to one man, whom they considered as talking nonsense, many lives would not have been lost.... at the hands of specialists.
    Ignaz Semmelweis
    Despite various publications of results where hand washing reduced mortality to below 1%, Semmelweis's observations conflicted with the established scientific and medical opinions of the time and his ideas were rejected by the medical community. He could offer no acceptable scientific explanation for his findings, and some doctors were offended at the suggestion that they should wash their hands and mocked him for it. In 1865, the increasingly outspoken Semmelweis supposedly suffered a nervous breakdown and was committed to an asylum by his colleagues. He died 14 days later after being beaten by the guards, from a gangrenous wound on his right hand which might have been caused by the beating. Semmelweis's practice earned widespread acceptance only years after his death, when Louis Pasteur confirmed the germ theory, and Joseph Lister, acting on the French microbiologist's research, practised and operated using hygienic methods, with great success.

    How sad... the poor man.... Hurts my heart. :(
    At least he died for what he believed in. God will remember him, and we will see him again in the new world. How comforting.

    I think there is a lesson somewhere in there for us.
    However, each of us do have our own choices to make.
    Yours is not mine, and mine is not yours... thankfully. ;)

    Yes. We do not accept treatment, that involves spiritistic practices... aka spiritism.

    If you know JWs, you would know that they base their way of life on the teachings in the Bible.

    Not sure I understand your question.
    Could you rephrase it please.

    Could you tell me of those thousands of JW who have not had great reward from evangelizing.

    So, safe to say you disagree with Jesus?
    You think Jesus was wrong, for, as you put it, "invading people's space"?

    Luke 8:1 Shortly afterward he traveled from city to city and from village to village, preaching and declaring the good news of the Kingdom of God. And the Twelve were with him,

    Luke 9:6 Then starting out, they went through the territory from village to village, declaring the good news and performing cures everywhere.

    Matthew 10
    5 These 12 Jesus sent out, giving them these instructions:
    11 “Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.

    Could you rephrase this please. Sorry, maybe my brain is not working so well today, but I don;t understand what you are saying here.

    Okay.

    For me, it's not so much God can take care of them, but since I don't understand what you are saying, I am not sure if my response would be relevant.
    I'm saying that regardless of religion, God, Santa Clause, you have choices to make.
    What that choice is based on, is a matter for you.
    Some people have their consciences trained, by means of God's word...
    (Hebrews 5:14) Solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their perceptive powers trained to distinguish both right and wrong.
    The decisions they make, are going to be based, therefore, on what the Bible teaches.
    They will not deviate to please anyone, or to save their skin, so to speak.
     
  14. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Sorry. Learning disability so English issues. I think/talk in fragments. It would take forever to edit everything I write, so I'll try to make it easy to read (for you and for me, lol).

    Why not both?

    Maybe it has to do with where you live?

    I'd be dead if I didn't have doctors advice (with second and third opinions). So, do you trust "any" doctors?

    I guess let someone die isn't a good term for it. Though, the context is the same. I can see a little bit better if you said blood transfusions do work most of the time "but" we choose not to out of faith. However, are you using those times it didn't work to support your religious choice not to use it?

    I'd say save my life (and strangers, those I love, etc) because that is my truth. I value life-so religion, spirituality, etc-wouldn't go against that. If it doesn't support life giving and supporting while on this earth, it's not for me to take part of. I can't imagine or near understand why a religion would promote sacrifice of self insofar it disvalues this life in comparison to one's faith or spirit. I just don't see the separation.

    Yes.... and they saved many people. Take COVID. Do you believe all those doctors are wrong treating patients because X many died from the illness?

    Should COVID patients not trust their doctors?

    We have different views on that. I don't see the need to sacrifice yourself for your belief if your truth is life itself. If anything, sacrificing yourself (if life is truth) would be wrong and going against every will of the mind, spirit, and body will to survive, live, age, and die.

    If your truth is life there is no need to sacrifice your life for it.

    Other medical treatment? Medicines. Surgeries. Other things like that.

    Yes. I get confused with every denomination that says that, though. Hard to keep track but JW is pretty direct about their views. I'll give them that.

    Disregard it. :(

    That's deflecting the question as if JW always 100% bring people to christ etc through evangelizing.

    Quite frankly, yes (from the JW/LDS/some protestant perspectives). Some christian denominations I respect their evangelism methods but the ones I mentioned, no.

    Remember, though. I disagree with what jesus said in the bible. I don't know jesus personally in those respects.

    That doesn't mean there isn't success, right?

    Hm. I guess I pretty much clarified this in the beginning of this post, I hope?
     
  15. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I wonder if that's been staged. I wonder.
     
  16. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Understood.

    Could we forget about doctors for now. I think we need to get things in proper perspective and focus.

    Oh yes. You are having trouble seeing. :D
    Please, what do you mean by "but we choose not to out of faith"?
    That way I can better understand what you are seeing.

    I don't understand the first part. Or maybe I do.
    What do you mean by your family is your truth? Do you mean that you don't know of anything else more important than those you love?
    I think I understand.
    So which religion, or spiritual path do you follow, and how do you receive spiritual guidance?
    May I ask what do you know about your God, and how?
    I ask this since you said you "value life-so religion, spirituality, etc-wouldn't go against that".

    Tell me please. Sacrificing self. Would this count as sacrificing self?
    (Matthew 10:21, 22) 21 Further, brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child, and children will rise up against parents and will have them put to death. 22 And YOU will be objects of hatred by all people on account of my name; but he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved.

    Yes. I think so too.
    I think a person willing to give up the things in this world, and commit to serving God - speaking of the one I know of - has made a sacrifice, which may also involve his physical life.
    This is a choice I have made. I love how 1 John 2:15-17 puts it. There is also
    (Matthew 16:24-27) 24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and continually follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save his soul will lose it; but whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it. 26 For what benefit will it be to a man if he gains the whole world but forfeits his soul? or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of man is destined to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will recompense each one according to his behavior. (Mark 8:34-38)

    You are missing the point. Why? :shrug:

    Sorry. What do you mean by "your truth is life"? Do you mean "your truth means life"?
    If that is what you mean, can you explain, again, so that I can understand what you are seeing. How would one's truth mean life?

    Ah. i got it!
    Looking back at what you said about those you love.
    Hmm. God is love. There is no one greater in love than Jehovah. He is my life.
    (Deuteronomy 32:47) . . .For this is no empty word for you, but it means your life. . .
    What that means speaking on fleshly level. No one on this earth can give me life now, or everlastingly - not family, not friend, not doctors.
    They all die don't they?
    (Psalm 146:3-6) 3 Do not put YOUR trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. 4 His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish. 5 Happy is the one who has the God of Jacob for his help, Whose hope is in Jehovah his God, 6 The Maker of heaven and earth, Of the sea, and of all that is in them, The One keeping trueness to time indefinite,

    Hence I rather live my life, with eternity in view, instead of a few fleeting moments of pleasure in this world.
    Some people feel that it does not matter how one lives, because they think that God will still give them life. However the Bible says that God blots people's name out of his "book of remembrance". (Revelation 3:5)

    That means that there are many people, past, and present, who are not in God's memory, or as Jesus called it, "the ,memorial tombs". (John 5:28, 29)
    They will not be living in the Paradise to come on earth... forever.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Any diagnostic or therapeutic procedure that involves spiritism.

    Whoa.
    Deflection from what?
    You made a direct statement.
    There are thousands of JW who have not had great rewards from JW evangelization.
    That's not true. So how can one deflect from a point that apparently has no point? :D
    Maybe next time, make sure it's more than a claim, which evidently you cannot support. ;) Or can you?

    So could you tell me of those thousands of JW who have not had great reward from evangelizing?

    Okay. So you disagree with the methods of Jesus in the Bible.
    I'll remember that Artist. I did not know this before. Now I know.
    Remember, I don't see every post you make, so you might have made that clear to others, but not to me.

    That's not the point, is it?
    If it's the point, perhaps I am losing the whole point of your argument.

    I think so. :)
     
    #56 nPeace, Oct 10, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2020
  17. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Talking to yourself? :D
     
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  18. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    @Unveiled Artist , regarding masks: Even if they might not protect us, we wear them, to protect others. — Matthew 22:37-39.
    Regarding blood transfusions: it’s an obedience issue.“Abstain....from blood”. How would putting it in your veins, be abstaining?
    JW’s began refusing blood transfusions in the mid-1940’s. We were just being obedient.

    We did not know then, that there would be benefits.

    Experience: in 2008, my aunt in Ohio had a heart attack. The Doctors said, “If you don’t accept a blood transfusion, you will die.”

    She didn’t, even though she refused it.

    The Scripture she kept thinking about, she said, was Revelation 2:10b.


    You’ve gotta keep that in mind... our future life, resurrection after our death, depends on who? God alone.

    See also 1 Samuel 15:22b
     
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  19. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Hm.
    Now that makes more sense. Back then we didn't know too much as we know now. I can see if its tradition, but then saying it still won't work today (not from you just in general) as a means to justify not going through with the treatment makes less sense. Is it a "life or death" issue if JW decided to choose blood transfusion if no other options are available?

    That's good. Doctors aren't god ;) It's a personal decision to go through with any treatment based on your experience. In general, would it be logical (I guess) to determine if treatment is benefitial based on one's personal experience when each person's health situation is different more or less?

    Would it make sense to trust god alone over any treatment option?
     
  20. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Most my claims are personal opinions from experience and so forth. Stats, averages, and so forth that would be nice to use with the best of them but on RF, I'd have to have a good progressive conversation to really go into it. Takes too much brain effort on my part.

    Oh. I can see it if you said blood transfusions do work, but we choose not to because of our faith. I still don't understand it but it's very different than not going through with the treatment because the X amount of people weren't successful with it.

    I had to read this again. I don't know how to answer this because the truth I believe in (to call it that) is the value of life and living rather than the act of "dying for" something/someone. How to say. Living Is my truth so sacrificing myself is pretty much counterproductive to living that truth.

    If there were not eternal life (or perfect earth hereafter?) would there still be a value in dying for your truth?

    Had to do with the doctor discussion. Disregard.

    I actually never used the word truth before but just doing so for the conversation. Your life and living is a value or truth in itself. So whatever you do, say, and believe is a conduit to that life. It's the whole shabang. So, if you die for the sake of something or someone, you're taking your life (that truth) and throwing it away. The truth is in the living not the dying.

    So I can't die for "my" truth because it would be contradicting the very thing I value: life.

    I guess there is honor to die for god. It's hard to understand how you can give your life up for something or someone outside yourself.

    How does god owe your allegiance?
    Not just your service and faith but your life?

    You already have life. It's not given. You were born into, live, and out of life. (In my opinion ;)).

    You asked "Could you tell me of those thousands of JW who have not had great reward from evangelizing?"

    It seemed you're commenting with a question rather statement to agree or disagree with what I said originally. There are many people who did not benefit from JW evangelizing.

    I see where I was going with this. It's the same as my saying that X number of patients have success with blood transfusions. You mentioned there are those that are not successful. So, I used the same logic that even though there is a lot of success in JW evangelization, there is also a lot of unsuccessful attempts.

    Two sided story.

    Maybe it's more of a fallacy rather than deflecting: proving your point or I'm wrong by asking me something quite vague it's impossible to prove. There are so many people in the world how can I possible know who JW succeeded in getting to come to christ and who not. All I know is from my personal experience and other people off and on RF, there tends to be a consensus with JW and LDS etc to really want people to come to christ despite acknowledging that it's just not for every person. I don't know how to explain it. In my opinion, evangelizing is unethical.

    I usually don't say I don't believe in christ, god, or so have you because christians tend to change their conversation. It becomes one-sided. I know some christians who literally cut off conversation as if they didn't want to throw pearls to swine. (if you get my reference)

    The reason I don't agree with jesus isn't because I knew him or anything like that. Actually "disagreeing with jesus" wouldn't be a good way to put it. Disagreeing with what's written in the bible or what the bible says about jesus and his teachings, I disagree with. Christians tend to talk of jesus as if they met him. I haven't so all my references is what I read in scripture rather than from personal relationship with him.
     
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