I didn't know you were JW. Anyway, couldn't you guys wear masks and/or shields to continue evangelizing door to door?
Our organization decided against it, and I trust there must be a good reason for that.
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I didn't know you were JW. Anyway, couldn't you guys wear masks and/or shields to continue evangelizing door to door?
Yes. Some people have telephoned the branch office in their land, to specifically inform the Witnesses, that they are not welcomed on their property.
Sometimes these properties may be whole complexes, and we have to find other means of sharing the message with those residents.
That's why our public, and informal witnessing - where we witness at the market; on public transportation, etc. is so important.
(Acts 17:17) So he began to reason in the synagogue with the Jews and the other people who worshiped God and every day in the marketplace with those who happened to be on hand.
Who determines that someone needs blood?
Many surgeons have already said, and demonstrated that no one needs blood, other than their own.
So the idea, or orthodox view that people need blood - from another person, is a personal view, and not a fact.
As life-giver, God determines how blood should or should not be used.
In his word the Bible, he clearly outlined his view on the use of blood.
I forgot to mention, another reason JWs would hold off going door to door, during the Covid19 situation.
They also have love for one another.
(1 Peter 2:17) . . .Honor men of all sorts, have love for the whole association of brothers, be in fear of God, honor the king.
Hence they want to protect their brothers from harm (contacting the virus).
Loved that last paragraph.
God is the one who draws the person.
I think between the JWs here, we might have mentioned John 6:44 about three dozen times on these forums.
@Unveiled Artist Interestingly, there are people constantly seeking out JWs, to have a Bible study, so it does show, the heart is involved, therefore God is actively involved, as he is the one searching hearts.
(Jeremiah 17:10) I, Jehovah, am searching the heart, Examining the innermost thoughts. . .
For one thing, JWs seek medical help - the best kind - for the purpose of saving lives.
That's why a committee was formed to assist with the needs of health - emergency or otherwise.
So it is not accurate to say JWs let someone die.
Hence the comparison you made started with a false presumption .
Second, because we value life, we do not take unnecessary risks, or put our lives, or the lives of others in harms way.
Hence we stay at home, until relatively safe to get back to normal activity.
You must remember that we carry the Bible, and in some cases a book bag, and it can be quite a challenge for many, especially sometimes we forget, or do things unconsciously, which could be deadly.
All it takes is one mistake, and we may not be as fortunate as others.
Even the experts are not taking this situation lightly.
How much more so, people who place a high value on life, because of the God they serve.
After all this time, people still don't get it.
You don't wear a mask to protect yourself. You wear one to protect other people.
You wear one to prevent that when you cough, breath, speak,... the virus that you might be infected with doesn't travel 2m away from you, or even further when it gets caught by a current.
A doctor or nurse that wears a mask when dealing with a weak patient, is not because they are afraid they'll catch whatever the patient has. They'll still wear one, for example, when working on a leukemia patient. Leukemia isn't contagious - it's a cancer. So why do they wear one, do you think?
Right... because the patient's immune system is a wreck and they wear a mask to prevent infecting that patient with something that might mean his death sentence.
It provides *some* protection to yourself, but really not that much. Most danger to yourself comes from your hands and face-touching when they are soiled. This is why disinfecting hands and washing them is such a big deal.
As just explained: you wear one to prevent infecting others, in case you yourself happen to be infected without knowing it (yet).
I had trouble following this chaotic mess, but did you just suggest that Covid19 is an anti-Trump conspiracy?!
Sorry. I can't seem to wrap my head around your argument, since it seems to be ignoring two things. 1) Your claim that someone let someone die, is false. 2) You are evidently ignoring one practice, with the belief that another practice is the right practice.I believe that's a huge generalization since everyone's health situation is different. I personally rather see a loved one lived based on his health and doctors advice than say "most doctors..." type of thing. I can't imagine letting a loved one die because it didn't work for other people. If it didn't work, there'd be no reason to suggest it or even have the treatment. Also, it depends on where one is from and the types of medical expertise one has to do these types of treatment. Localized opinion, maybe? But dependent on the situation.
Are there other treatments JW disagree with?
Sorry. I can't seem to wrap my head around your argument, since it seems to be ignoring two things. 1) Your claim that someone let someone die, is false. 2) You are evidently ignoring one practice, with the belief that another practice is the right practice.
Thus you make two assumptions, and declare them factual.
Therefore, you seem to be making an argument for a position of, "I believe A. A is true. So I am arguing from the position that what I believe is true regardless if it is not. So I don't want to hear B, or C, or anything else other than A".
With such a position, anything that is said to you, if it is not A, passes through one ear, and out the next, without any processing.
How can I help you, then?
I can only do so, if you acknowledge what is said, and weight it against what you said.
So I think you would need to first explain how seeking medical care for a 'patient' means letting them die.
Sometimes people don't care for something, because they fail to see how it benefits them.Yeah. I live in a senior/disability complex so we're not allowed to have LW, LDS, and other solicitors, etc, etc in the building. We did have one lady who was interested in becoming JW. We talked a lot and asked me questions no christian in all my life asked or even interested in knowing. Though, generalizations don't make facts, there are countless people who really dont care for proselytizing. It's one thing to say no, when JW asks, it's another to know it's wrong without needing to ask and getting a rejection. I guess some people have a sense of respecting other people's space and privacy. Of course they tell about christ in other ways but ideally not in a manor that imposes on other people's "space."
Let me ask... Would you rather take a life, or save one?I just find it odd that option is not considered if it is the best one that would save a loved ones life. Of course there are other options, but I am sure there are cases that that's not true. Some religions do let people die for sake of their religious belief saying that its meant for god to save and heal a person not doctors. I can kinda understand it being a personal decision but a biblical decision. That pretty much stretches B.C. medical views with 21st century views. Interesting
If I believe that blood transfusions are wrong - which I do, why would I go against what I believe just because someone says, predict, assumes I will die?If there are no other options but blood transfusions, and doctors agree to this based on the patients situation, then that patient would die if they didn't receive this treatment. In this analogy, if JW was faced by this situation with no other safer options available, do they ask for a medical waiver to let god take care of the patient when he dies instead?
Piggy backing on the other thread, I'm curious. One JW here said that jesus calls them to evangelize...and (in my words) will do so despite the others disinterest etc. They also, I believe, don't agree with blood transfusions that in my view would save lives to those who need it.
Yet, the door to door visiting has been stopped temporarily. Why is that?
If evangelization and medical waivers of treatment etc are acknowledged as gods laws, why would JW postpone door to door visits?
They can wear shields and don't need to be in people's homes to get people to come to Christ. What's special about this corona situation than the others mentioned?
If I believe that blood transfusions are wrong - which I do, why would I go against what I believe just because someone says, predict, assumes I will die?
Is that not the same thing as believing it is wrong to murder, but then murdering someone because I believe, predict, assume they will kill me?
They look the same to me.
No one knows who will die.
Doctors have predicted the death of patients, and the patients have outlived the doctor.
The patience, determination, and strong conviction of JWs has won out, by the new understanding of surgeons about blood, and blood transfusions.
Imagine if Jws had not stood on the side of conscience, and just did like most people - kill and bury their conscience, bloodless surgery, and medicine might have never been heard of.
This is the same with our preaching activity.
Our faithfulness at demonstrating our conviction, has resulted in great rewards - millions of faithful disciples throughout the earth, doing what Jesus commanded.
Nevertheless, the important thing is to stick with what you know your conscience dictates.
If you are going to be raped, don't assume that sounding the alarm will get you killed. Scream your lungs out.
Otherwise, you may be raped, and killed, and you are no better off.
Taking a blood transfusion does not guarantee you will live. You may take the transfusion and die anyway. Did you let yourself die?
Anyone.Someone as in doctors?
Yes, I understand that.Many people die because of their faith, though.
I recall that in the past, specialists actions caused the death of many.No. I don't compare medical treatments to save lives with committing murder.
I'd say if specialists told me that blood transfusions helped, I would go off what they say. I don't see it different than any other treatment meant for the same purposes.
Yes. We do not accept treatment, that involves spiritistic practices... aka spiritism.I don't see it that way. Of course there is a margin of error in any doctor's prediction. Second and third opinions are always worth the trouble. I don't understand your view, though. Does JW see other treatments in the same view as they do blood transfusion?
If you know JWs, you would know that they base their way of life on the teachings in the Bible.It's one thing to say no because you found a better nonevasive option, but another to say no because "god says so..."?
Not sure I understand your question.If I may. Isn't that like my saying blood transfusions work despite you mentioning those that do not as one foundation for your convictions?
Could you tell me of those thousands of JW who have not had great reward from evangelizing.There are thousands of JW who have not had great rewards from JW evangelization. That doesn't mean some people don't benefit (like people with blood transfusion) it just means that evangelization by those means just isn't an appropriate way to bring people to christ. There are other ways, that particular method is inappropriate.
Could you rephrase this please. Sorry, maybe my brain is not working so well today, but I don;t understand what you are saying here.How can I say, that's deflecting the point. Not being guaranteed (as with every other treatment doctors give) doesn't mean it won't be a success.
Okay.If there are no other options available than blood transfusions and because of conviction, you said no to specialists, yes. You let that person died.
For me, it's not so much God can take care of them, but since I don't understand what you are saying, I am not sure if my response would be relevant.As for seeing that as a positive or negative thing, that's up to the person. For you, it may be more god can take care of them now since I made the decision in good faith. To me it's not like that.
Doctors all say different things.
Some will tell you take essentials oils internally. Some will tell you don't.
The doctors opinion does not determine my choice. Thorough research, and a consideration of what I find to be reliable, truthful, and of greater long term benefit, does.
Yes, I understand that.
Many of JWs have died for refusing to take sides in politics, and war.
Even today, one can die from simply refusing to desist from their right to religious and conscientious freedom. ... or even speaking the truth, or what one believes is true. *
The thing about that is, they died with a clear conscience, and faithful to the God they believe and worship.
* Would you be willing to die for the truth, or would you lie, just to save your life... or try to save it, since you can't guarantee you won't be killed regardless.
I recall that in the past, specialists actions caused the death of many.
If only they had listened to one man, whom they considered as talking nonsense, many lives would not have been lost.... at the hands of specialists.
How sad... the poor man.... Hurts my heart.
At least he died for what he believed in. God will remember him, and we will see him again in the new world. How comforting.
I think there is a lesson somewhere in there for us.
However, each of us do have our own choices to make.
Yours is not mine, and mine is not yours... thankfully
Yes. We do not accept treatment, that involves spiritistic practices... aka spiritism.
If you know JWs, you would know that they base their way of life on the teachings in the Bible.
Not sure I understand your question.
Could you rephrase it please.
Could you tell me of those thousands of JW who have not had great reward from evangelizing.
So, safe to say you disagree with Jesus?
You think Jesus was wrong, for, as you put it, "invading people's space"?
Could you rephrase this please. Sorry, maybe my brain is not working so well today, but I don;t understand what you are saying here.
"Taking a blood transfusion does not guarantee you will live. You may take the transfusion and die anyway. Did you let yourself die?
For me, it's not so much God can take care of them, but since I don't understand what you are saying, I am not sure if my response would be relevant.
I'm saying that regardless of religion, God, Santa Clause, you have choices to make.
What that choice is based on, is a matter for you.
Some people have their consciences trained, by means of God's word...
Understood.Sorry. Learning disability so English issues. I think/talk in fragments. It would take forever to edit everything I write, so I'll try to make it easy to read (for you and for me, lol).
Could we forget about doctors for now. I think we need to get things in proper perspective and focus.Why not both?
Maybe it has to do with where you live?
I'd be dead if I didn't have doctors advice (with second and third opinions). So, do you trust "any" doctors?
I didn't realize we were discussing doctors.
Oh yes. You are having trouble seeing.I guess let someone die isn't a good term for it. Though, the context is the same. I can see a little bit better if you said blood transfusions do work most of the time "but" we choose not to out of faith. However, are you using those times it didn't work to support your religious choice not to use it?
I don't understand the first part. Or maybe I do.I'd say save my life (and strangers, those I love, etc) because that is my truth. I value life-so religion, spirituality, etc-wouldn't go against that. If it doesn't support life giving and supporting while on this earth, it's not for me to take part of. I can't imagine or near understand why a religion would promote sacrifice of self insofar it disvalues this life in comparison to one's faith or spirit. I just don't see the separation.
You are missing the point. Why?Yes.... and they saved many people. Take COVID. Do you believe all those doctors are wrong treating patients because X many died from the illness?
Should COVID patients not trust their doctors?
Sorry. What do you mean by "your truth is life"? Do you mean "your truth means life"?We have different views on that. I don't see the need to sacrifice yourself for your belief if your truth is life itself. If anything, sacrificing yourself (if life is truth) would be wrong and going against every will of the mind, spirit, and body will to survive, live, age, and die.
If your truth is life there is no need to sacrifice your life for it.
Any diagnostic or therapeutic procedure that involves spiritism.Other medical treatment? Medicines. Surgeries. Other things like that.
Whoa.Yes. I get confused with every denomination that says that, though. Hard to keep track but JW is pretty direct about their views. I'll give them that.
That's deflecting the question as if JW always 100% bring people to christ etc through evangelizing.
Okay. So you disagree with the methods of Jesus in the Bible.Quite frankly, yes (from the JW/LDS/some protestant perspectives). Some christian denominations I respect their evangelism methods but the ones I mentioned, no.
Remember, though. I disagree with what jesus said in the bible. I don't know jesus personally in those respects.
That's not the point, is it?That doesn't mean there isn't success, right?
I think so.. I guess I pretty much clarified this in the beginning of this post, I hope?
Talking to yourself?I wonder if that's been staged. I wonder.
JW’s began refusing blood transfusions in the mid-1940’s. We were just being obedient.
Experience: in 2008, my aunt in Ohio had a heart attack. The Doctors said, “If you don’t accept a blood transfusion, you will die.”
She didn’t, even though she refused it.
You’ve gotta keep that in mind... our future life, resurrection after our death, depends on who? God alone.
Oh yes. You are having trouble seeing.
Please, what do you mean by "but we choose not to out of faith"?
That way I can better understand what you are seeing.
I don't understand the first part. Or maybe I do.
What do you mean by your family is your truth? Do you mean that you don't know of anything else more important than those you love?
I think I understand.
So which religion, or spiritual path do you follow, and how do you receive spiritual guidance?
May I ask what do you know about your God, and how?
I ask this since you said you "value life-so religion, spirituality, etc-wouldn't go against that".
Would you be willing to die for the truth, or would you lie, just to save your life... or try to save it, since you can't guarantee you won't be killed regardless.
Yes. I think so too.
I think a person willing to give up the things in this world, and commit to serving God - speaking of the one I know of - has made a sacrifice, which may also involve his physical life.
You are missing the point. Why?
Sorry. What do you mean by "your truth is life"? Do you mean "your truth means life"?
If that is what you mean, can you explain, again, so that I can understand what you are seeing. How would one's truth mean life?
Ah. i got it!
Looking back at what you said about those you love.
Hmm. God is love. There is no one greater in love than Jehovah. He is my life.
What that means speaking on fleshly level. No one on this earth can give me life now, or everlastingly - not family, not friend, not doctors
Deflection from what?
You made a direct statement.
There are thousands of JW who have not had great rewards from JW evangelization.
That's not true. So how can one deflect from a point that apparently has no point?
Maybe next time, make sure it's more than a claim, which evidently you cannot support. Or can you?
Our faithfulness at demonstrating our conviction, has resulted in great rewards - millions of faithful disciples throughout the earth, doing what Jesus commanded. #50
Okay. So you disagree with the methods of Jesus in the Bible.
I'll remember that Artist. I did not know this before. Now I know.
Remember, I don't see every post you make, so you might have made that clear to others, but not to me.