JW and people's safety

[Unveiled Artist]

Piggy backing on the other thread, I'm curious. One JW here said that jesus calls them to evangelize...and (in my words) will do so despite the others disinterest etc. They also, I believe, don't agree with blood transfusions that in my view would save lives to those who need it.

Yet, the door to door visiting has been stopped temporarily. Why is that?

If evangelization and medical waivers of treatment etc are acknowledged as gods laws, why would JW postpone door to door visits?

They can wear shields and don't need to be in people's homes to get people to come to Christ. What's special about this corona situation than the others mentioned?

 

[Deeje]

Piggy backing on the other thread, I'm curious. One JW here said that jesus calls them to evangelize...and (in my words) will do so despite the others disinterest etc.

Jesus commanded that we preach the Kingdom message in all the world as “a witness to all the nations” before God brings the “end” to the present system of things. (Matthew 24:14: Matthew 28:19-29) It serves a two fold purpose of 1) informing people of God’s intentions, whether they welcome that message or reject it...it gives them choices.
2)To give people a hope beyond the hopelessness of the world’s continuing moral, physical and mental decline.
Like it or not, this present system of the world’s governance is going to change.....suddenly and dramatically. (Daniel 2:44)

They also, I believe, don't agree with blood transfusions that in my view would save lives to those who need it.

JW’s are living proof that blood transfusions are not the optimal approach to any medical treatment today. Bloodless medical treatments have proven to be so successful, that they are now implemented in hospitals all over the world. Google bloodless medicine. Blood does not save lives, but actually puts patients at greater risk.
I have shared this video from our Australian Government’s website many times. These are the opinions of world experts in the field.

For Media | National Blood Authority

Yet, the door to door visiting has been stopped temporarily. Why is that?

In view of the current circumstances, we take public safety very seriously. Would you rather we didn’t? It is only our door to door (face to face) witnessing that has been temporarily suspended, but we have other avenues of spreading our message without spreading the virus. That is the right thing to do.....isn’t it?

If evangelization and medical waivers of treatment etc are acknowledged as gods laws, why would JW postpone door to door visits?

When a door closes, a window opens. We use the means available to us, without putting the health of others at risk. Zoom is a great way to keep in touch. There are letters, cards and phone calls that keep us in touch with people, who need answers and hope now more than ever.

They can wear shields and don't need to be in people's homes to get people to come to Christ. What's special about this corona situation than the others mentioned?

It’s the method of transmission, because this virus is apparently like no other....smaller than other corona viruses, it can apparently get through the barrier of a mask better than its larger counterparts. Whilst masks are important, they are not 100% effective. Not everyone can afford PPE.

If we can successfully conduct our preaching work without going to the extreme of hazmat suits and face shields, whilst herd immunity kicks in, why wouldn’t we?

It’s our responsibility to “love our neighbors as ourselves”, so we will resume our door to door work when it is deemed “safe” to do so.

 

[nPeace]

Piggy backing on the other thread, I'm curious. One JW here said that jesus calls them to evangelize...and (in my words) will do so despite the others disinterest etc. They also, I believe, don't agree with blood transfusions that in my view would save lives to those who need it.

Yet, the door to door visiting has been stopped temporarily. Why is that?

If evangelization and medical waivers of treatment etc are acknowledged as gods laws, why would JW postpone door to door visits?

They can wear shields and don't need to be in people's homes to get people to come to Christ. What's special about this corona situation than the others mentioned?

In the Bible, we read that God is reasonable.
Jesus explained what that involves.
For example...
(Matthew 23:23, 24)
23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness. These things it was necessary to do, yet not to disregard the other things. 24 Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel!

The Pharisees failed to understand what God's requirements involved.
If someone obeys God, say, by preaching the good news, but while doing so, refused to show interest in the person, or demonstrate fellow feeling, would God be pleased with their service?
Of course not.

Paul put it this way, at 1 Corinthians 13
1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love, I have become a clanging gong or a clashing cymbal. 2 And if I have the gift of prophecy and understand all the sacred secrets and all knowledge, and if I have all the faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my belongings to feed others, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I do not benefit at all.

Although we are obligated to obey God, in carrying the message to our neighbors, we do not, like the Pharisees, disregard the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness.

We show love to our neighbors, by thinking of their health, and concerns.

It is important to note though, that we don't force anyone to listen to us. If people let us know they would rather not see, or hear us, we respect the latter.
Unfortunately we can't help them with the former.

These homes are put on record, as "Do not call".
So all witnesses working that territory, are informed to miss that home.
We respect and love our neighbors.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Piggy backing on the other thread, I'm curious. One JW here said that jesus calls them to evangelize...and (in my words) will do so despite the others disinterest etc. They also, I believe, don't agree with blood transfusions that in my view would save lives to those who need it. Yet, the door to door visiting has been stopped temporarily. Why is that?
If evangelization and medical waivers of treatment etc are acknowledged as gods laws, why would JW postpone door to door visits?
They can wear shields and don't need to be in people's homes to get people to come to Christ. What's special about this corona situation than the others mentioned?

Door to door is Not social distancing and people can also easily be contacted by phone and letters.
Besides how would anyone know if the person answering the door is also wearing a mask.

There is non-blood management available, even some hospitals have non-blood management units available.
Before the Constitution of the Mosaic Law, God's Law on blood use is mentioned at Genesis 9:4-6.
Under the Mosaic Law God's Law was still in effect as per Leviticus 7:25-27; Leviticus 17:11-14.
Then, after the temporary Constitution of the Mosaic Law for ancient Israel ended, God's Law on blood still stands - Acts of the Apostles 15:20; Acts of the Apostles 15:29
So, the choice I find is: that either we agree with God or we choose Not to agree with God.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Thanks deeje

Jesus commanded that we preach the Kingdom message in all the world as “a witness to all the nations” before God brings the “end” to the present system of things. (Matthew 24:14: Matthew 28:19-29) It serves a two fold purpose of 1) informing people of God’s intentions, whether they welcome that message or reject it...it gives them choices.
2)To give people a hope beyond the hopelessness of the world’s continuing moral, physical and mental decline.
Like it or not, this present system of the world’s governance is going to change.....suddenly and dramatically. (Daniel 2:44)



JW’s are living proof that blood transfusions are not the optimal approach to any medical treatment today. Bloodless medical treatments have proven to be so successful, that they are now implemented in hospitals all over the world. Google bloodless medicine. Blood does not save lives, but actually puts patients at greater risk.
I have shared this video from our Australian Government’s website many times. These are the opinions of world experts in the field.

For Media | National Blood Authority

In view of the current circumstances, we take public safety very seriously. Would you rather we didn’t? It is only our door to door (face to face) witnessing that has been temporarily suspended, but we have other avenues of spreading our message without spreading the virus. That is the right thing to do.....isn’t it?



When a door closes, a window opens. We use the means available to us, without putting the health of others at risk. Zoom is a great way to keep in touch. There are letters, cards and phone calls that keep us in touch with people, who need answers and hope now more than ever.



It’s the method of transmission, because this virus is apparently like no other....smaller than other corona viruses, it can apparently get through the barrier of a mask better than its larger counterparts. Whilst masks are important, they are not 100% effective. Not everyone can afford PPE.

If we can successfully conduct our preaching work without going to the extreme of hazmat suits and face shields, whilst herd immunity kicks in, why wouldn’t we?

It’s our responsibility to “love our neighbors as ourselves”, so we will resume our door to door work when it is deemed “safe” to do so.

It's not so much how one evangelizes just that one Does?

When you evangelize to anyone without by going on their property it becomes more of a personal issue for the owner. While they won't get sick from the virus by going door to door (in usual circumstances) I'd think there is harm done nonetheless.

Do you have better success rates evangelizing to those who aren't JW virtually compared to door to door?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

In the Bible, we read that God is reasonable.
Jesus explained what that involves.
For example...
(Matthew 23:23, 24)
23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness. These things it was necessary to do, yet not to disregard the other things. 24 Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel!

The Pharisees failed to understand what God's requirements involved.
If someone obeys God, say, by preaching the good news, but while doing so, refused to show interest in the person, or demonstrate fellow feeling, would God be pleased with their service?
Of course not.

Paul put it this way, at 1 Corinthians 13
1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love, I have become a clanging gong or a clashing cymbal. 2 And if I have the gift of prophecy and understand all the sacred secrets and all knowledge, and if I have all the faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my belongings to feed others, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I do not benefit at all.

Although we are obligated to obey God, in carrying the message to our neighbors, we do not, like the Pharisees, disregard the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness.

We show love to our neighbors, by thinking of their health, and concerns.

It is important to note though, that we don't force anyone to listen to us. If people let us know they would rather not see, or hear us, we respect the latter.
Unfortunately we can't help them with the former.

These homes are put on record, as "Do not call".
So all witnesses working that territory, are informed to miss that home.
We respect and love our neighbors.

Thanks. Do new home owners contact JW to put their names on the do not call list?

Like blood transfusion, I was wondering where the limitations lie. If a loved one was dying and needed blood I'd give blood for the same intent as not going door to door if I had the virus. How are the two incidences different since they both (no door to door and transfusion) save lives?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Door to door is Not social distancing and people can also easily be contacted by phone and letters.
Besides how would anyone know if the person answering the door is also wearing a mask.

There is non-blood management available, even some hospitals have non-blood management units available.
Before the Constitution of the Mosaic Law, God's Law on blood use is mentioned at Genesis 9:4-6.
Under the Mosaic Law God's Law was still in effect as per Leviticus 7:25-27; Leviticus 17:11-14.
Then, after the temporary Constitution of the Mosaic Law for ancient Israel ended, God's Law on blood still stands - Acts of the Apostles 15:20; Acts of the Apostles 15:29
So, the choice I find is: that either we agree with God or we choose Not to agree with God.

Yes. The question was getting at the comparison of saving lives by blood transfusion as well as not going door to door.

If one let's someone die without blood transfusion wouldn't that be the same with the virus if gods law is put over people in this case as well?

How are the two situations different?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yes. The question was getting at the comparison of saving lives by blood transfusion as well as not going door to door.
If one let's someone die without blood transfusion wouldn't that be the same with the virus if gods law is put over people in this case as well?
How are the two situations different?

I find under the Mosaic Law ( for example: Leviticus chapters 13 and 14 ) with contagious disease quarantine was required.
Even if a blood transfusion ( 'eating' blood by transfusion ) can temporarily save a life it can't give a person 'everlasting life' as God promises.
In my past 70+ years I have Not known anyone who died from refusing a transfusion.
( I am Not saying it can't happen )
I do wonder how many people die after a transfusion or die within days or weeks after a transfusion _______________
Now, I don't know of anyone who died from C-19 who stayed in quarantine, or social distancing.

 

[Deeje]

It's not so much how one evangelizes just that one Does?

As the old saying goes..."there's more than one way to skin a cat". Face to face is the best way to present the message as there are nuances of speech and body language that contribute to any discussion, that is not possible with written communication although the bare bones of a subject can be transmitted that way.

When you evangelize to anyone without by going on their property it becomes more of a personal issue for the owner. While they won't get sick from the virus by going door to door (in usual circumstances) I'd think there is harm done nonetheless.

Harm? What harm is done to someone who answers a doorbell or a knock when JW's are standing on their doorstep. We are not exactly terrorists you know....

But let me put it this way (as I have done before) if emergency services knock at your door to warn you of an impending disaster, do you object and want to throw them off your property? Would you be angry if they skipped your house because they thought you might not be interested in what they have to tell you?

It is not illegal to knock on someone's door....salesmen have been doing it for centuries, and until its made illegal, we will keep calling unless you tell us that you do not want us to call. That way we are absolved from guilt because we tried to warn you of God's intentions. (Ezekiel 3:18-19)

Do you have better success rates evangelizing to those who aren't JW virtually compared to door to door?

We have success no matter what avenue we choose to use....that is because it has the backing of God's spirit.
If people want the truth and are searching for it, God will allow them to find it, no matter what avenue it comes through.
I had an appointment with my natural therapist this week and that led to an extended conversation and now she wants to study the Bible. We never know where we will find interest in our message...but now more than ever people can see that the world has been turned on its ear with a small virus......they wonder where it is all going and if life can ever be the same again......we show them how it can get better than they ever imagined.

 

[Deeje]

If one let's someone die without blood transfusion wouldn't that be the same with the virus if gods law is put over people in this case as well?

Did you watch the video? If not then you will not appreciate how dangerous blood transfusions actually are.
This is not JW's telling you this, but medical experts in the field. For us, it is a Biblical command to "abstain from blood"....but it is now backed up by the medical evidence.

No one dies from not having a blood transfusion...they die from medical mismanagement, when so many other safer options are available.
If a doctor wants to give you blood as a first line of treatment.....change your doctor, because they have not kept up with advances in medical science and are putting your life at greater risk.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Did you watch the video? If not then you will not appreciate how dangerous blood transfusions actually are.
This is not JW's telling you this, but medical experts in the field. For us, it is a Biblical command to "abstain from blood"....but it is now backed up by the medical evidence.

No one dies from not having a blood transfusion...they die from medical mismanagement, when so many other safer options are available.
If a doctor wants to give you blood as a first line of treatment.....change your doctor, because they have not kept up with advances in medical science and are putting your life at greater risk.

But you do get my point though, right?

 

[Deeje]

But you do get my point though, right?

No...I don't think you had a point at all really...I do not see the connection.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No...I don't think you had a point at all really...I do not see the connection.

Oh. I was comparing and wanted to know how gods laws are compromised to save people from door to door but not when it's one life at stake.

Why the "scriptural" division when it comes to saving lives?

Of course there are risks involved with any treatment. It's at the decision of the patient and loved ones. People have survived. People have died. Though I find it confusing that jw won't compromise on this but they would door to door.

You kinda three me off with all the data on blood transfusions. There's always good sides or the treatment wouldn't be suggested. Sounds like a moral issue with the treatment not medical.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Though I find it confusing that jw won't compromise on this [transfusions] but they would door to door [witnessing]

Maybe this will explain it better....
To get a blood transfusion, there's only one way: surgically intravenous. No other choices (with blood.... different and safer non-blood procedures are available.)
But to witness, there are many ways! And right now, door-to-door is a dangerous way!

 

[Deeje]

Oh. I was comparing and wanted to know how gods laws are compromised to save people from door to door but not when it's one life at stake.

Why the "scriptural" division when it comes to saving lives?

I am so not on your wavelength that I cannot for the life of me understand what on earth you are on about???

We refuse blood because it is a Biblical command to "abstain from blood"...if I was an alcoholic and the doctor told me to abstain from alcohol, what does he mean? Does he mean don't drink it, but its OK to put it in an IV directly in to my blood stream....that's where it will end up anyway....right?
"Abstain" means what?

There are much safer alternatives to blood transfusions and if you watched the video you would hear the words "morbidity and mortality" are more attached to blood transfusions than to any other routine medical procedure.
What do those words mean? Look them up.

Of course there are risks involved with any treatment. It's at the decision of the patient and loved ones. People have survived. People have died. Though I find it confusing that jw won't compromise on this but they would door to door.

What??? We have a few different ways to preach our message and they are all doing the same thing and having the same results. Door to door is just one of them. We are considerate of our neighbors in this pandemic and are refraining from face to face contact for now. Would you rather we just rock up and not care about whether we might spread this virus? What part of this is difficult for you to understand?
You can't infect someone over the phone or on the net. Emails too are an effective means of communication without compromising anyone's health.
What don't you understand?

You kinda three me off with all the data on blood transfusions. There's always good sides or the treatment wouldn't be suggested. Sounds like a moral issue with the treatment not medical.

Its a Biblical issue....and we will not compromise on it. We do not force our views on others but feel duty bound to warn people about an outdated medical procedure that some doctors still cling to. After watching the video, would you still want blood? If you knew that there were safer and more effective treatments, wouldn't you prefer them?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Door to door is just one of them.

I was thinking door to door was a necessity thing not an option.

Since the virus won't disappear, I wonder if JW would take that out. It may not seem like a problem for JW, but I don't think they are listening to the people who live on the property. I know some of our doctors offices started doing virtual visits indefinitely. I guess after awhile they figure it was more convenient.

I guess to understand what I'm saying, you'd have to understand how door-to-door is a very rude way to evangelize. It doesn't kill people like the virus and put people at risk of dying by not having blood transfusions, so I don't think you'd get it for you're not seeing the other side of the story with this type of evangelization. But what can I say.

I never got the blood transfusion though. It's one thing to not do it by personal preference and based on the health of the patient, but a whole 'nother to not do because of statistics and not based on the health and advice of the doctors. It's kind of like letting someone die because only 30% survived from X surgery. Most people would take the chance, but personal preference really decides that for most. I'm just surprised the transfusion thing it's a biblical issue.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Maybe this will explain it better....
To get a blood transfusion, there's only one way: surgically intravenous. No other choices (with blood.... different and safer non-blood procedures are available.)
But to witness, there are many ways! And right now, door-to-door is a dangerous way!

I'd say that recruiting people - especially children - into an organization that refuses to report sexual abuse and assault to the police as a matter of policy is always dangerous, even not in a pandemic.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Maybe this will explain it better....
To get a blood transfusion, there's only one way: surgically intravenous. No other choices (with blood.... different and safer non-blood procedures are available.)
But to witness, there are many ways! And right now, door-to-door is a dangerous way!

Thanks. Is it a medical fact there are "always" other ways (and safer) ways to save people's lives outside of blood transfusions?

I personally would go with what's safer (based on the patients' health and doctors advice with second and third opinions of course) not because I have other options that are more critical than the former.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

JW’s are living proof that blood transfusions are not the optimal approach to any medical treatment today.

Are they? Are they, really?

Jehovah's Witness Kid Dies After Refusing Medical Treatment
Pregnant Jehovah's Witness dies after refusing blood transfusion for Leukemia | Daily Mail Online
Jehovah's Witness dies after refusing blood transfusion
Family of Jehovah's Witness who died after refusing blood transfusion can't keep suing doctors

Because I can only find stories like that. And they aren't exactly hard to dig up.
Sadly, this isn't exactly a rare situation.

Bloodless medical treatments have proven to be so successful, that they are now implemented in hospitals all over the world. Google bloodless medicine. Blood does not save lives, but actually puts patients at greater risk.
I have shared this video from our Australian Government’s website many times. These are the opinions of world experts in the field.

So you are simply going to ignore any and all medical conditions where blood transfusion simply is the only way to properly save a life?

In view of the current circumstances, we take public safety very seriously. Would you rather we didn’t? It is only our door to door (face to face) witnessing that has been temporarily suspended, but we have other avenues of spreading our message without spreading the virus. That is the right thing to do.....isn’t it?

Yes, it is the right thing to do.

Just like all the people that are working from home right now instead of going to the office.
In fact, many are saying, and hoping, that this thing ushers in a new working culture, where home-working becomes a lot more common. Many are actually very pleased with the extra hours every day that they no longer have to spend in traffic from and to work.

As a matter of fact........... maybe that's an idea of your guys too.... Get these "other avenues of spreading your message" more present in your club. I'm sure many people will appreciate no longer being bothered by doomsday folks showing up at their door, coming to tell them "the good news".

When a door closes, a window opens. We use the means available to us, without putting the health of others at risk

Except when it comes to the treatment of certain medical conditions. Then it's to hell with health and praise the dogma.

Zoom is a great way to keep in touch. There are letters, cards and phone calls that keep us in touch with people, who need answers and hope now more than ever.

Well, you work on that...
Meanwhile science will continue to study the virus and try and develop meds, treatment techniques and a vaccine.

We'll see who'll come up with the best answers fist. ^_^

Or are you folks also irresponsible anti-vaxxers?

If we can successfully conduct our preaching work without going to the extreme of hazmat suits and face shields, whilst herd immunity kicks in, why wouldn’t we?

Herd immunity, is not going to happen.

It’s our responsibility to “love our neighbors as ourselves”,

"...except when they need blood".

so we will resume our door to door work when it is deemed “safe” to do so.

Just saying, maybe double down on those "other" venues.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

No one dies from not having a blood transfusion...

That's obviously extremely false.

If a doctor wants to give you blood as a first line of treatment.....change your doctor, because they have not kept up with advances in medical science and are putting your life at greater risk.

It all depends on the medical condition in question and the diagnose.
Stop acting as if you know better. You really don't.