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Just wondering

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by waR toRn Rebel, Jul 22, 2005.

  1. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    You assume that they are such questions... 1st mistake
    Your second mistake is in assuming that I base my Christian faith on the Bible... here's a hint: I don't.
    You have yet to show either a question I couldn't "anwser" or a flaw in the Bible... batting a 1.000..... next?
     
  2. waR toRn Rebel

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  3. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

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    No....the story of Lucifer and the revolt is a story told to children but is not found in the Bible.
     
  4. waR toRn Rebel

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    Scott1 - what do you base your faith on then?

    melody - What bible do you read. I know the verses is in the bible, I remember them speaking of it on the history channel during one of their specials.
     
  5. Simon the Cat

    Simon the Cat Member

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    Isn't it that to question the power of God is to in some why question your faith in that God and that (in Christianity at least) you are supposed to go there?
     
  6. waR toRn Rebel

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    I'm not asking them to question their faith nor an I asking them to go against there god's word. I'm simply asking them how they deal with these questions and if no one has ever told them then they need not reply.
     
  7. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

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    I use the KJV and NIV. Please quote the chapter and verse since there is no story of Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels revolting in mine.
     
  8. waR toRn Rebel

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    I really don't trust those versions of the bible, since they are just the parts that King James wanted to keep from the Chatholic bible. Anyway have you read your bibles?

    This was Satan's name before his rebellion against God (Isa.14:12-14).
    The first sinner, the first rebel, and the first to consecrate himself to
    self-gratification and to wage war against all society (Isa.
    14:12-14;
    And there is a whole page on it but that would be too long of a reply. What I have given you should suffice.
     
  9. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I betcha you have, Scott. ;) (You just don't remember it.)
     
  10. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I believe the 12th chapter of Revelation describes this event, Melody.
     
  11. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    this statement just confused me. Could you make it clearer?
     
  12. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    waR toRn Rebel,

    [PART QUOTE = WaR tiRn Rebel]................."I did I asked how the people that believed in the christian god handled questions that they couldn't anwser or proved there god "...............[/PART QUOTE]

    These are your "Proof" thar our God doesn't exist?

    :rolleyes:

    Genesis1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the

    Exodus 20.22 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Tell the Israelites this: 'You have seen for yourselves that I have spoken to you from heaven:

    Deuteronomy 3:24 "O Sovereign LORD, you have begun to show to your servant your greatness and your strong hand. For what god is there in heaven or on earth who can do the deeds and mighty works you do?

    :biglaugh:
     
  13. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 14 is not about Lucifer. It is about the King of Babylon. This section starts with the following verse...

    On the day the LORD gives you relief from suffering and turmoil and cruel bondage, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:
    Isaiah 14:3-4


    Some people mistakenly translate the king of babylon as Lucifer. Rather than try to re-explain what others do so well, I will direct you to an excellent explanation.

    " The passage in Isaiah 14:12-17 is directed at the downfall of the arrogant Babylonian rulers who took Israel into exile. By beginning with the New Testament, by making assumptions not supported by a closer examination of Scripture itself, and by using external theological categories as a lens through which to read Scripture, we may end up badly misreading Isaiah."

    For complete article, click here.
     
  14. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

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    I'll direct you to the same link. I believe this is an error of interpretation best explained in the article I quoted.
     
  15. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    As you say, Melody - Isiah is about Babylon..........​
    waR toRn Rebel;

    14:3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,​

    14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! ​

    Isaiah 13 and 14 predict the ultimate fall of Babylon at a time even before the kingdom of Babylon became dominant. In Isaiah's time, the Assyrian empire was the leading nation.​


    Revelation 12

    12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

    (Wonder" is the same as "sign." By calling this miraculous scene in the heavens a sign, John helps to confirm that the other events described in Revelation should be understood literally if they are not designated as signs. Since the meaning of the sign is not explained in the immediate context, it must be understood in terms of previous revelation. As a matter of fact, the sign is so comprehensive that it embraces the entire plan of redemption, beginning with the Edenic promise. Here, in the middle of the book of Revelation, the Lord has provided several parenthetical revelations, each extending from primeval history up to this climactic point, the midpoint of the seven-year tribulation, and beyond.
    While this symbol might at first suggest a connection with Joseph's dream (Genesis 37:9,10) in which he saw the sun, moon and eleven stars, representing his parents and brothers bowing down to him, there are important diff The sign will have special application in this context to Israel; the church will have been taken out of the world, and God will be dealing with Israel in a special way once again. The sun may well symbolize Christ Himself, "the light of the world" (John 8:12), for the woman has "put on Christ." The moon is a sort of counterfeit light, or false religion, which the woman has put under her feet; and the twelve stars in her crown possibly represent the tribes of Israel, soon to be revived and restored as the special nation of God's election.)

    12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

    12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

    (There is a general application here to the whole world, "Because the creature [creation] itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now" (Romans 8:21,22). The more specific application, however, must be to Israel and then Mary herself: "Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail" ( Micah 4:10). "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah,...out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel, whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting" (Micah 5:2).
    The sign of the great dragon is explained in Revelation 12:7. He is "that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan," who has tried to destroy the woman and her spiritual seed ever since Eden. Yet, in order to be used as a sign, the dragon itself must have been a real animal, well known and feared by the ancient world but now extinct (see notes on Genesis 1:21; Job 40:15-24; Isaiah 27:1). Though evolutionists would disagree, dragons almost certainly were dinosaurs, universally known by the nations of antiquity to exist as real creatures.
    The "seven heads and ten horns" on this hydra-headed dragon evidently represent the great kingdoms of past history and the chief kingdoms of this final period of history, all of which have been and will be imbued with the spirit of the old serpent (1 John 5:19). See notes on Revelation 17:10-12 for more specific identification.)

    12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

    (These "stars of heaven" are identified as Satan's angels in Revelation 12:9. In Satan's primeval rebellion against God, he was able to persuade a third of God's "innumerable company of angels" (Hebrews 12:22) to follow him. They were "cast out into the earth" (Revelation 12:9) as a result (Isaiah 14:12; Ezekiel 28:17; Luke 10:18). Some went to the lowest hell (2 Peter 2:4) and some were bound in the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14) as a result of further specific and flagrant sins. There are still multitudes of demonic angels, however, freely roaming the world and serving "the prince of the power of the air" (Ephesians 2:2), and these hosts will be more active and dangerous than ever in these final days.
    Ever since the promise of Genesis 3:15, Satan has been attempting to prevent the promised Seed from being born, beginning with his attack on Cain and Abel (1 John 3:12) and continuing with his attempt to corrupt the entire human race in the days of Noah (Genesis 6:4-13). In spite of Satan's efforts, Christ was born. The Devil tried to destroy Him with Herod's slaughter of the babes at Bethlehem. When that failed, he tried to corrupt Christ in the wilderness and tried several times to have Him slain before He could go to the cross.)


    12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

    (Psalm 2:9 and Revelation 19:15 indicate Christ will rule with a "rod of iron." This clearly identifies the "man child" as the Lord Jesus Christ and therefore as the promised Seed.
    The primary reference here is certainly to the resurrection and ascension of Christ. However, the phrase "caught up" is also used in connection with the rapture of believers (1 Thessalonians 4:17). Christ also promised the overcoming believers that they would share in His rule of the nations with a rod of iron (Revelation 2:27), so this verse probably includes all those who were also in Christ at the time of the rapture.)


    12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

    (The "woman" at this time can only be Israel, and the "wilderness" into which she flees must be the desert and mountain regions east and southeast of the Dead Sea. This is the region occupied )

    12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

    (At this time of Jewish persecution, the archangel Michael will "stand up" for them (Daniel 12:1), and this will result in a great war in heaven--probably in the atmospheric heaven, which had been Satan's domain, where the Lord has met with His redeemed and raptured saints. There Satan and his angels will be defeated and cast permanently down to the earth (Revelation 12:9). How this war will be fought has not been revealed, but both faithful and fallen angels have tremendous energies and powers, of which humans have little comprehension)

    12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
     
  16. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Pt 2

    12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    (Appropriately, and providentially, this is the central verse in the book of Revelation. The dragon is here identified as the serpent of Eden (Genesis 3:1), as the Satan who tested Job (Job 1:6), and as the Devil who tested Jesus (Matthew 4:1). See Revelation 20:2 for a similar description.
    As the great deceiver, Satan has deceived the whole world with the great lie with which he evidently deceived himself in the beginning--namely, that God is not really the Creator, Sustainer, and Judge of all things, and that, consequently, both men and angels can reject His Word, rebel against His rule and ultimately aspire to be "gods" themselves. This lie finds its only rationale in the false premise of evolution, the idea that the universe always existed or exists independently of a Creator and is able to evolve itself into higher and higher orders of being. This lie may take the form of either atheism or pantheism, but both deny God and His revealed truth of special creation. With it, Satan has deceived the whole world, in every age and culture since the creation (1 John 5:19; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4).
    Satan had long ago been cast out of his heavenly authority as the anointed cherub (Ezekiel 28:14-17), though he still has access to God as "the accuser of our brethren" (Revelation 12:10). Even that access will end when he is defeated by Michael; from then on, he and his angels will be limited to the earth alone, where he will still desperately try to overthrow God.)


    12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

    (A glimpse of the continual slandering activity of the devil (Greek diabolos, meaning "slanderer" or "false accuser") is given us in the case of Job (Job 1:7,11), Joshua the high priest (Zechariah 3:1,2), and Peter (Luke 22:31), as well as his ongoing campaign against every believer (1 Peter 5:8).)

    12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

    12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

    12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

    (This intense persecution of Israel in the last years of the present age is the subject of many passages in the writings of the Old Testament prophets (Leviticus 26:40-45; Deuteronomy 30:1-5; Isaiah 11:10-16; 27:6-13; Jeremiah 23:3-8; 30:3-11; 31:7-11; 32:37-41; Ezekiel 34:11-16; 36:22-28; Daniel 12:1).)


    12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

    (This indicates angelic, miraculous help to the fleeing Israelites, evidently intending to remind them of similar divine help when they fled Pharaoh in the days of the Exodus (note the reference to "eagles' wings" in Exodus 19:4).
    Same word as "fed." Just as God miraculously fed the Israelites in the wilderness under Moses; He will again nourish these last-day Israelites in the wilderness as they await the Messiah.
    This duration is obviously the same as the 1260 days, or 3 1/2 years, of Revelation 12:6. A "time" here clearly means a "year." This terminology probably is used to tie it to the prophecies of Daniel 7:25 and 12:7.)



    12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

    (This is a symbolic flood, for it is cast out of the mouth of the symbolic serpent. The devil-energized "beast" (Revelation 13:4), having disrupted the temple worship in Jerusalem by placing his own image there to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15; Matthew 24:15), then seeking to execute all who refuse to do so, will be enraged at the Jews in particular, and will send a "flood" after them. This will probably be a flood of military might--armies, artillery, airplanes--but God will destroy them all, just as He did long ago with Pharaoh's hosts (Psalm 124:1-6; Isaiah 59:19).)


    12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

    (The means of destruction is apparently a sudden great fissure opening up in the earth and swallowing the troops, the artillery, and planes, if these are indeed the "flood." The earth's global upheavals during the first 3 1/2 years will have left the Great Rift Valley of the region extremely unstable, so such an event could easily be triggered at God's Word (compare Numbers 16:32,33).)

    12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    (This reference to the "seed" of the woman is reminiscent of God's promise in Genesis 3:15. When the beast, the seed of the serpent, is thwarted in his attempt to destroy the fleeing Israelites of Jerusalem, he will turn his wrath against those men and women all over the world, whether Jews or Gentiles, who "keep the commandments of God"--that is, those refusing to worship his image which has been installed in the temple at Jerusalem--and who bear testimony of their faith in Jesus Christ. All these are the true spiritual seed of the woman and, since the dragon cannot get at the heavenly Seed, he will seek to destroy the "remnant of her seed." But they will overcome him "by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony" and even by a victorious martyr's death (Revelation 12:11).)
    :)
     
  17. Quoth The Raven

    Quoth The Raven Half Arsed Muse

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    How do you prove or disprove an object of faith? Why are you only targeting the Christian god? Is it because you think the other gods are already disproved?
     
  18. waR toRn Rebel

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    The reason for only targeting the Christian god is because I feel that I only know enough of Christianity. In other words I don't really know the detail of most the other religions. I do know their over all system, but not the details.
     
  19. waR toRn Rebel

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    This is to both Melody and Michel.

    LUCIFER'S REBELLION BEFORE ADAM
    AND A THIRD OF THE ANGELS
    GO WITH HIM

    by

    Finis Dake



    REBELLION AND OVERTHROW OF THE FIRST
    SOCIAL SYSTEM

    (Gen 1:2; Isa 14:12-14; Jer 4:23-26; Ezek 28:11-17;
    2 Pet 3:5-6)


    Part Two


    IV. ISAIAH'S TEACHING ON THE OVERTHROW OF THE PRE-ADAMITE WORLD


    In Isa. 14:12-14 we have conclusive proof that Lucifer ruled the
    Earth before the days of Adam. It could not have been since Adam
    that he ruled and fell from Heaven as in this passage, for he was
    already a fallen creature before Adam was created.
    In Adam's day he regained dominion of the Earth and has been the
    prince of this world ever since. In this passage both Satan and
    the king of Babylon are in view. This is what is known as the law
    of double reference, that is, a visible person is immediately
    addressed while at the same time an invisible person who is using
    the visible person as a tool to hinder the plan of God is also
    addressed. For example, when Jesus said to Peter, "Get thee
    behind me, Satan: for thou art an offense to me: for thou
    sayest not the things that be of God, but those that be of
    men" (Matt.16:23), He did not mean that Peter was the personal
    devil, but that he was being used as a tool of Satan to keep
    Christ from getting to the cross.
    Hence, both Peter and Satan are addressed and involved in the
    statement. To understand such passages, one should understand
    that part of the passage that can refer to an earthly person as
    referring to a man, and that part that cannot possibly refer to
    an earthly person as referring to the invisible person also
    addressed.

    In Isa.14:12-14 we have some statements which cannot possibly be
    made of an earthly king of Babylon. The passage is universally
    accepted as referring to the fall of Satan. We shall quote it and
    then note the facts:

    "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the
    morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst
    weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I
    WILL ascend into heaven, I WILL exalt my throne above the
    stars of God: I WILL sit also upon the mount of the
    congregation, in the sides of the north: I WILL ascend above
    the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

    Note the following facts this passage proves of Satan:

    1. That his name is Lucifer.
    2. That he was a son of the morning, and therefore, no earthly
    man.
    3. That he fell from Heaven. This could never be spoken of a man.
    Satan is the only person in all Scripture who is spoken of as
    falling from Heaven (Luke 10:18).
    4. That he was cut down to the ground in his fall.
    5. That he had weakened nations on Earth.
    6. That he was exalted in his heart.
    7. That he invaded Heaven, where God rules.
    8. That he was a king, for he had a throne and subjects over whom
    he ruled.
    9. That he wanted to exalt his kingdom above the clouds, stars,
    and into Heaven itself to dethrone God.
    10. That he wanted to be worshipped in the congregation (Ps.72:1;
    82:1; Isa. 6:1).
    11. That he led a rebellion against God but was defeated.
    12. That his kingdom was on Earth, or he never could have tried
    to ascend above the clouds, stars, and into Heaven. When a
    kingdom is located under the clouds it has to be on the Earth,
    for one can stand on certain parts of the Earth and still be
    above clouds.
    13. That the ground, clouds, stars, and Heaven were already
    created.
    14. That it had to be before Adam, for this was not the position
    of Lucifer when he was in Adam's Eden. Adam had dominion at that
    time. He had no kingdom on Earth at the time of Adam and has not
    had since in the sense of a visible, personal rule on Earth. He
    has only ruled through others since Adam's day; so this must
    refer to a time before Adam.
    15. That he was not in Heaven when he rebelled, else he could
    not have desired to ascend into Heaven. He was under the stars,
    or he could not have desired to be exalted above the stars. He
    was under the clouds, or he could not have desired to ascend
    above them.
    16. That God's throne is located in the north part of the
    universe (Ps. 75:6-7).
     
  20. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

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    Conclusive? Obviously not since that's not the conclusion that many of us come to. Again, Isaiah 14 deals with the King of Babylon...not Lucifer. I gave you just one of the many links that explains why this is so.

    As for your other proof, I fail to see what they have to do with the conversation at hand.

    Genesis 1:2
    Creation of the earth. What does this have to do with Lucifer and his revolt?

    Jeremiah 4:23-26
    Go back to verse 3 -- "This is what the LORD says to the men of Judah and to Jerusalem:" What does this have to do with Lucifer and his revolt?

    Ezekiel 28:11-17
    This is about the King of Tyre....not Lucifer.

    2 Peter 3:5-6
    Also about the creation of earth. What does it have to do with Lucifer?
     
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