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Just how much evolutionary change do creationists accept?

Super Universe

Defender of God
What is the cause?


And your evidence for this pre-programming is..............?

Life is the mysterious force that "gives life" to beings.

I think what you are asking is what is the cause of species change, God causes the evolutionary events to happen.

My evidence for pre-programmed species in DNA is? It's in DNA. One day your scientists will understand it.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Life is the mysterious force that "gives life" to beings.

I think what you are asking is what is the cause of species change, God causes the evolutionary events to happen.

My evidence for pre-programmed species in DNA is? It's in DNA. One day your scientists will understand it.
You've done nothing but post a series of empty assertions. Hopefully you understand why that sort of thing is not at all persuasive.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
BINGO!!! Even a single creationist organization varies enormously when it comes to how much evolution they'll accept.

It's almost like they're making it up as they go along..........:rolleyes:
They do make it up as they go along, which is why they've been forced to employ four taxonomic ranks to describe all the different kinds in the world. "Kind" has essentially become a term describing any organism that is taxonomically classified as anything from an order down to a species, which is pretty useless.

.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
How do you explain punctuated equilibrium then?
????????? What in the world does that have to do with this thread or what you posted earlier? Remember, you asserted some sort of pre-programming model, but have yet to support it in any way whatsoever.

As far as PE, it was Gould and Eldredge making a point to their colleagues in paleontology that they were failing to utilize the primary mode of speciation that population geneticists had been using for decades.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
You've done nothing but post a series of empty assertions. Hopefully you understand why that sort of thing is not at all persuasive.

SU likes to do exactly that: post a lot of assertions without any evidence or reasoning behind them.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I can't speak of what other creationist have said, because I don't really know what they said. But,

As I stated in another post. Evolution is hard to experience subjectively because of its nature. That being gradual changes to an organism over thousands of years. Which makes it a hard sell to the average lay person.
St francis stated evolution experientially very nicely what one cannot do is teach someone to experience. I can't teach taste. Science narrative isn't evolution it's a narrative. Religion refuses to understand. D this they tend to prefer there narratives over experience just like science. So it's a interpersonal issue in religion in science science. They tend to mutually agree all truth starts with the cranium their ideas they tend to simply disagree on the details. One can't paint totally broad brush religion or science because in each domain there are antimonian voices speaking reason. But these are little and generally minor voices shouted over by loud dimwits in both domains.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
????????? What in the world does that have to do with this thread or what you posted earlier? Remember, you asserted some sort of pre-programming model, but have yet to support it in any way whatsoever.

As far as PE, it was Gould and Eldredge making a point to their colleagues in paleontology that they were failing to utilize the primary mode of speciation that population geneticists had been using for decades.

What does PE have to do with this thread? This thread is about evolution. PE is a theory driven by the evidence. The fossil record shows relatively sudden bursts of species change followed by long periods of stability.

I asserted some sort of pre-programmed model? I did. The fossil record already proves it. There are long periods of species stability followed by relatively short periods of change.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
What does PE have to do with this thread? This thread is about evolution.
This thread is about creationists and how wildly varied they are in how much evolutionary change they will accept. If you want to discuss PE, start your own thread.

I asserted some sort of pre-programmed model? I did. The fossil record already proves it. There are long periods of species stability followed by relatively short periods of change.
How in the world is that evidence for genetic pre-programming?
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
This thread is about creationists and how wildly varied they are in how much evolutionary change they will accept. If you want to discuss PE, start your own thread.


How in the world is that evidence for genetic pre-programming?

This thread is about creationists and how wildly varied they are? I think you would find that my creationists ideas are unique. Oh, you're disappointed that I don't use the bible as evidence and that I'm not claiming the earth to be only 6,000 years old. Well, surprise, surprise.

If I want to start a thread on PE I should start my own? Nope, there's enough evolution vs creationism threads on RF already.

How in the world is species stability proof of genetic pre-programming? Uhh, species are stable, that's proof. Scientists thought that evolution happened slowly with tiny mutations adding up until one species could not longer mate successfully with another but that's not how it happens. God causes the evolutionary events to happen, and when they happen they're very messy until certain species become extinct.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Sure but for every one that a great many could not. Poverty and high school dropouts
Correlation does not imply causality. There are plenty of poor kids, children of the proletariat, that manage to get fine educations. Blaming it all on their economic strata and ignoring their lack of the "right stuff" is just so much social justice warrior clap trap. Sure, it is easier for a rich kid, but it is still quite possible for even the poorest kid, given the a background that has developed communication skills and a love of learning.
In 2012 alone 1.1 million high school drop outs due to poverty. The ones that do make it to college, half of them drop out and never receive a degree due to poverty.
Again, correlation does not imply causality, there is way more at work here than just economics.
Oxymorons in the flesh at Berkeley in California. They were black mask and Marx visits them in their dreams and whispers about a workers paradise! Even though these kids have never experienced hard labor a day in their life.
You should excuse them, they mean well. Even Lenin was born into the wealthy middle-class family and embraced revolutionary socialist and was expelled from Kazan Imperial University for participating in protests against the Russian Empire's Tsarist government. I believe it was Churchill, that sion of the ruling class, who is wrongfully credited with saying, “If a person is not a liberal when he is twenty, he has no heart; if he is not a conservative when he is forty, he has no head.’ Thomas Jefferson credits a form of this this quip, to John Adams: “A boy of 15 who is not a democrat is good for nothing, and he is no better who is a democrat at 20.”
Coming up for $2,000 down payment on a $50,000 truck is easy once per year (earned income credit).
That does not make the payments through.
Its a lot harder for poverty stricken teenagers with no credit history and barely enough money to feed themselves, let alone put themselves through college.
If they can write a powerful essay they can get a finest-kind education. The problem is that they not only lack what it takes to buy their way in, the also lack what it take to qualify for a full ride.
For religion, yes thats fine.

But faith does not hold water for the scientific community, so why should we be expected to have faith in them?
You are faced with a choice between obvious fairy tale and issues that are more complex than you are prepared to comprehend (creationism vs. comparative anatomy and embryology). The question boils down to: Is it more sensible to believe in magic, or to accept, on actual authority, rational explanations that the evidence indicates you would understand were you better educated? Clearly the best thing to do is to obtain the requisite education, but if you can't (for whatever reason) it is best to take it on authority from those who have done so. When you want to know how your car works do you consult your mechanic or your pastor? If you need to deal with severe bleeding do you go to the Emergency Room or to your church? If you want to understand the diversity of life is it not best to consult the consensus of the Evolutionary Biologists and similarly take it on that authority that Evolution happens?
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
This thread is about creationists and how wildly varied they are?
Yes. That much is obvious if you read the OP.

I think you would find that my creationists ideas are unique. Oh, you're disappointed that I don't use the bible as evidence and that I'm not claiming the earth to be only 6,000 years old. Well, surprise, surprise.
You're not making any sense.

If I want to start a thread on PE I should start my own? Nope, there's enough evolution vs creationism threads on RF already.
That's fine, just don't try and derail this thread.

How in the world is species stability proof of genetic pre-programming? Uhh, species are stable, that's proof.
If that's the best you can do, I'll let that speak for itself.

Scientists thought that evolution happened slowly with tiny mutations adding up until one species could not longer mate successfully with another but that's not how it happens.
And in general, that is how it happens. We've seen it in real time.

God causes the evolutionary events to happen, and when they happen they're very messy until certain species become extinct.
More empty assertions.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Cool, figure out a way to pay for that course for them then!
They don't have to pay for it. There are plenty of published papers in the literature that describes all sorts of evolution lab experiments, and there are plenty of layperson-friendly blogs and media articles that describe them in easy to understand terms.

The problem isn't a lack of available information about evolutionary biology.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Correlation does not imply causality. There are plenty of poor kids, children of the proletariat, that manage to get fine educations. Blaming it all on their economic strata and ignoring their lack of the "right stuff" is just so much social justice warrior clap trap.

Stop right there. I don't even care about anything else you said. That is nonsense. You can be the brightest person in the world. If you can't break out of poverty, your not going to college. So don't sit there on your high horse and look down on people as not having "the right stuff", because they can't afford it. Way to bigot bro!
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Yes. That much is obvious if you read the OP.


You're not making any sense.


That's fine, just don't try and derail this thread.


If that's the best you can do, I'll let that speak for itself.


And in general, that is how it happens. We've seen it in real time.


More empty assertions.

This thread is about creationists? I'm a creationist.

I shouldn't derail this thread? Oh, can you post the list of the only arguments we are allowed to make then?

You'll let species stability to speak for itself? You'll let it speak for itself? How noble of you. Wait, did you think you were in charge of determining what it means to the rest of us?

In general species evolve slowly? No, they don't. Natural selection affects population size, how many of this type of animal can be supported in a given environment. Natural selection does not affect future development.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
It's funny how even though Christian creationists adhere to the same basic religion and holy book, they vary wildly as to just how much evolution they'll accept.

The same can be said of agnostics, atheists, Muslims, etc.

Christians are united by our faith in Christ and little else, as you already know. We don't generally concern ourselves nearly as much as you concerning evolution. We are primarily concerned with following Christ's commandments or rather, we should be.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Stop right there. I don't even care about anything else you said. That is nonsense. You can be the brightest person in the world. If you can't break out of poverty, your not going to college. So don't sit there on your high horse and look down on people as not having "the right stuff", because they can't afford it. Way to bigot bro!
Poverty makes it harder, but hardly impossible. The resources are there, you need to be bright enough and hard working enough and you need to persevere.

I'm not saying that's right, or moral, or anything other than possible. But that's off topic, much as you'd like to hijack the thread, the issue you raised has been answered and is further dealt with in the movie Forest Gump ... stupid is as stupid does.
Let's get back to the real discussion:
Evolution is rather easy to experience subjectively if you've taken two courses at a university level: comparative anatomy and embryology. The problem is that even most biology majors rarely take either course. Each course has numerous prerequisites and they are among the most difficult courses offered. These two lab courses are much more expensive to offer due to materials costs (you'd be amazed at the price of injected dead cats and stained and sectioned chicken eggs) so they are rarely offered every semester or even every year. Sure, gradual changes to an organism over thousands of years may be a hard sell to the average lay person ... so what? Lacking the basic prerequisites, the ignorant should willingly be, as the Victorians prefered their small children, better seen than heard.
 
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sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Cool, figure out a way to pay for that course for them then!
Hold on. Evolution is a specialized discipline useful for those whose profession is oriented towards biological sciences. There is no reason for general public to pay for courses that does nothing but satisfy curiosity. School level knowledge of evolution ought to be enough for lawyers, artists or business folks. The problem is that certain religious groups are rejecting the science being taught in school for ideological reasons. If they have problems with the science, they can pay their pastors to take a course on evolution in college to understand the experimental and observational evidence in detail. Surely, if it's that important, they can cough up the dough to take such a 2 semester regular or evening course for their pastors and theologians before spending money to propagate unscientific creationist nonsense and embarrassing themselves?
 
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