1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Just for my own info but if God exists what can I do to get them to grant me a wish?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Jos, Sep 4, 2019.

  1. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2019
    Messages:
    3,038
    Ratings:
    +2,142
    Religion:
    Atheist
    If that husband is abusing and oppressing her and making her suffer, then absolutely.


    Then again, I actually have a moral compass.
     
  2. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2019
    Messages:
    3,038
    Ratings:
    +2,142
    Religion:
    Atheist
    It seems to me that in your post right before this one, you said the exact opposite:



    It seems to me that if a god would intervene in physical reality for whatever reason to accomplish whatever ends, it would by definition have to be miraculous - as it would literally have to disrupt the "natural flow of things" that can happen according to physical laws. If it wouldn't disrupt such, then there would be no need for any supernatural intervention.





    EDIT: OEPS!! Got my posters seriously mixed up. Sorry about that @nPeace and @Deeje . Ignore my objections and argument in this post... I'm leaving it up out of honesty in case either of you already read it.

    But it does make up for an interesting comparision though. Apparantly you two are in heavy disagreement about this. Care to clarify?
     
    #62 TagliatelliMonster, Sep 8, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
  3. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2019
    Messages:
    3,038
    Ratings:
    +2,142
    Religion:
    Atheist
    That is demonstrably wrong according to your very bible.
    In Exodus, it states that God explicitly "hardened Pharaoh's heart", making sure that he wouldn't listen and set free the israeli's. Apparantly for the sole purpose of being able to show off a bit more with his plagues and whatnot.

    In any case, that is a VERY CLEAR instance from your own holy book, where it literally states that your God most definatly interfered with free will and choices of Pharaoh.

    So, if you are going to go by the book of your very religion, then this book proves your statement that god "NEVER interferes with our choices" is absolutely incorrect, as he did exactly that at least once.
     
  4. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2019
    Messages:
    3,038
    Ratings:
    +2,142
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Except when he forced people to do foolish things, like "hardening pharaoh's heart" to make sure that he wouldn't listen and as a result would refuse to free israeli's
     
  5. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2019
    Messages:
    3,038
    Ratings:
    +2,142
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Off course, none of that actually happened in reality. It's just a story in a book.
     
  6. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    4,734
    Ratings:
    +1,313
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    Doesn't look that way to me. What exactly looks opposite to you, and how?
     
  7. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    4,734
    Ratings:
    +1,313
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    Too late. :D
    Apology accepted.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  8. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2019
    Messages:
    3,038
    Ratings:
    +2,142
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Again, sorry. Very foolish mistake on my part. :)
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  9. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    4,734
    Ratings:
    +1,313
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    Pharaoh's heart was already hard. God just allowed him to keep it that way.
    How did God do that? By not "laying it on thick". :D
    (Exodus 7:22, 23)
    22 Nevertheless, the magic-practicing priests of Egypt did the same thing with their secret arts, so that Pharaoh’s heart continued to be obstinate, and he did not listen to them, just as Jehovah had said.
    23 Then Pharaoh returned to his house, and he did not take this to heart either.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    4,734
    Ratings:
    +1,313
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    Hee Hee. You said it.
    I hope now you will look before you leap. :D
    Anyhow, we all make mistakes. It's a human thing. Sometimes I feel stupid, when I hit my toe numerous times, or repeat the same blunder a number of times
     
  11. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2019
    Messages:
    3,038
    Ratings:
    +2,142
    Religion:
    Atheist

    Exodus 9:12 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not listen to them, just as the LORD had told Moses.

    Every single bible version, literally states that God hardened Pharaoh's heart.
    Every. Single. One.



    New International Version
    But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.

    New Living Translation
    But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and just as the LORD had predicted to Moses, Pharaoh refused to listen.

    English Standard Version
    But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had spoken to Moses.

    Berean Study Bible
    But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not listen to them, just as the LORD had told Moses.

    New American Standard Bible
    And the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.

    New King James Version
    But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.

    King James Bible
    And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.


    .....
     
  12. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    1,220
    Ratings:
    +187
    Religion:
    Disciple of Jesus
    I don’t think you can do anything, but what would you wish?
     
  13. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    4,734
    Ratings:
    +1,313
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    Interesting.
    So you believe God hardened Pharaoh's heart, so everyone must believe that.
    So everyone must believe that Jesus said to literally dismember yourself, if you believe that, and every other thing that you take literally in the Bible, and believe... everyone must believe.
    Hmmm. Count me out.
     
    #73 nPeace, Sep 8, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    9,949
    Ratings:
    +5,226
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    I would like to address this mindset because it betrays the "genie" mentality that so many people have been taught to have about prayer. God is not sitting up in heaven with a switchboard cutting some people off whilst granting requests to others. Prayer is not a request for miracles. Those who think it is, are not very knowledgeable about God or the purpose of prayer in the Bible.

    Philippians 4:6-7...
    "Do not be anxious over anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication along with thanksgiving, let your petitions be made known to God; 7 and the peace of God that surpasses all understanding will guard your hearts and your mental powers by means of Christ Jesus."

    Prayer can take many forms....and God will answer them in ways we do not expect or even understand at times. It is important to note that the result of that prayer is "peace"...whatever the outcome.

    Take also the Lord's Prayer which was given as a model for our own....what was the subject of his prayer?

    "9 After this manner therefore pray ye. Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

    This was not a prayer to be repeated mindlessly, but a "manner" upon which to model our own prayers.

    First
    priority was God's name and his reputation....called into question by unbelievers, but faithful ones will respect and promote it.

    10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth.

    Second was the coming of his kingdom so that God's will can be done on earth as it is in heaven. The whole purpose of the Kingdom was to bring faithful humans back into a close and personal relationship with God, as we should have had in the beginning, before sin created a barrier. The sacrifice of Christ will remove that barrier during the rule of the Kingdom. In the meantime, we have an appointed Mediator who acts as a 'go-between' so that sinful humans can still approach God in prayer. So what were the kinds of requests that should be made?

    11 Give us this day our daily bread.

    This is a request for life's necessities, simply enough on a daily basis to sustain our lives. It is not a request for a banquet....or riches or anything other than sustenance.....a meeting of our needs, which is what God did for Israel in their wilderness wanderings.

    12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

    God's forgiveness of our sins is dependent on our forgiving others for sins committed against us. It leaves no room for revenge or for holding a grudge. Forgiveness prevents the fomenting of hatred and revenge, which the Bible says is a recipe for ill health. (Psalm 14:30)

    13 And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one." (Matthew 6:9-13 ASV)

    It ends there, but for Protestants it has an additional ending that was not part of the original prayer.
    This is asking for the wisdom to recognize a temptation from the devil and to help us not to be ensnared....and if we are for some reason, to give us the means to regain our footing.

    When I see people praying for a dying or afflicted relative that a miracle might happen to 'save them' and then to see their hopes dashed, it makes me angry that someone planted a false idea about prayers in their minds in the first place.

    What it is proper to pray for is the strength to endure whatever the devil may deliver upon us in his attempts to get us to give up on God in this world. We are living in the greatest object lesson in history and it is the greatest tragedy for believers when the devil comes off victorious. For every person he lures away from the true God, it is one more who will descend into death with him. It is a Pyrrhic victory because satan already knows his fate....but it is sweetened with every addition to his ranks.

    This is not the age of miracles....it is the age of endurance. (Matthew 24:13)
     
  15. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2019
    Messages:
    3,038
    Ratings:
    +2,142
    Religion:
    Atheist
    I don't believe one iota of the exodus story.
    But you apparantly do.

    And it's right there, while you are claiming that it isn't. But it is.

    I don't know how you can understand that verse to mean anything other then what it literally says.
     
  16. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2019
    Messages:
    3,038
    Ratings:
    +2,142
    Religion:
    Atheist
    I guess that means that you are angry at the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of theists.

    I hear stuff like that all the time. Like "I'll pray for you". Or when tragedy strikes things like "our thoughts and prayers are with you". Or in seemingly hopeless situations "all we can do now is pray".
     
  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    9,949
    Ratings:
    +5,226
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    If they treat God like some sort of celestial waiter, and they make a request, believing that he should grant it for them immediately....then yes. Who told them that God does this?

    So do I.....what is the end result usually? What do they expect prayer to result in realistically?

    When you see the vast majority of the prayers said for 'miracles' to happen and they are not answered, then don't you think something is wrong? If Jesus taught us to pray then what was prayer for?

    When someone says "I'll pray for you"...what do they mean? That if enough people pray, will God say..."Oh all right then".....and make a miracle happen? Is that the way things are supposed to work in a world ruled by the devil? God is not a genie. The right kinds of prayers get answered.

    I have a granddaughter currently undergoing testing for an inherited neurological disorder that is taking her father.....when I say that I will be praying for her.....it doesn't mean that I am praying for a negative result because if she has it, its been there in her genetics from conception. I can *hope* for a negative result, but what I will pray for is the strength to cope with the diagnosis....and what follows.

    When people blindly pray that someone doesn't have cancer, or that someone terminally ill will not die and they do....does it mean that God said no? Do you honestly think a loving God would do that and crush the faith of someone for no apparent reason? Who created this false hope connected to prayer? Its not the time for miracles.

    Miracles in the Bible only happened at a specific time and for specific reasons.They are recorded to demonstrate God's power in certain circumstances. Miracles in the future will also happen for specific reasons connected to God's purpose. They were never intended to be everyday occurrences.

    God has promised that prayers said "in accordance with his will" are heard by him and he will answer them. We have to figure out if what we are praying for is in accord with God's will, not just ours.
     
  18. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2019
    Messages:
    3,038
    Ratings:
    +2,142
    Religion:
    Atheist
    I'm just saying. It seems to me that everyone and their mothers are ALWAYS praying for something specific when they pray. They ask for help for whatever problems, strength to cope with whatever situations, cures for whatever illnesses etc.


    Make up your mind. Either prayers are answered or they aren't. Which is it?

    Sorry to hear that.

    :rolleyes:

    So, in other words, your prayer is indeed a request. A request for "strength" to cope with whatever, just like I said above.

    If God grants you that strength, it would necessarily mean that this god has to intervene in physical reality and manipulate your brain to help you mentally handle the situation.

    How is that different from praying for a cure or whatnot?

    Or when you pray for strength and you don't find this strength...
    Isn't that the exact same logic?


    I think a loving god wouldnt' create a world where innocents suffer from cancer or horrible deseases or parasites or what not in the first place, so I'm probably not the person you wish to ask that question.


    So, in your opinion, every single claimed "miracle" since biblical times, are false claims?

    Then prayer is useless, since that would mean that if the prayer isn't done, it would happen anyway since it was god's will anyway.

    I don't see how it matters, if the assumption is that god's will will be done regardless of who prays for what.

    For example, if it's god's will that it will start raining in 10 minutes, then it doesn't matter if I pray for rain or not. It will rain anyway. And moreoever, if I DO pray for rain anyway and then it rains.... then this god didn't actually "answer my prayer" at all, since it was his plan anyway to make it rain 10 minutes from now - regardless if I pray for it or not.


    So, to conclude: praying is useless.
     
  19. Jos

    Jos Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2019
    Messages:
    854
    Ratings:
    +117
    Religion:
    Agnostic Theist
    I would but it doesn't always work.
     
  20. Jos

    Jos Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2019
    Messages:
    854
    Ratings:
    +117
    Religion:
    Agnostic Theist
    That's true.
     
Loading...