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Featured Just Believe

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by nPeace, Sep 3, 2021.

  1. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like what @F1fan is saying. I like how you said "most of the time", because in most cases, it's like people who do things by rote - what they grew up seeing, without understanding why.
    One of my relatives is like that. She saw her mom doing it. She came along doing it. She continues doing it.
    When you try to explain why it can be done differently, because of the principle or reason behind it.... Her answer is, "She came along all her life knowing that's the way to do it." :(
    The 'why' does not matter.
     
  2. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Jesus said greater 'works' and Not signs, but what work he did at Luke 4:43. At John 14:12 the focus is on: works
    Jesus gave us a composite sign about both the 1st century and for our day or time frame in Matthew 24; Luke 21:11.
    The greater works are the 'spiritual works' mentioned at Matthew 24:14; Acts of the Apostles 1:8.
    Christians would take the message about the 'Good News of God's kingdom' (Daniel 2:44) on a grand international or world-wide scale as never before in history, just as it is being done today.
     
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  3. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    The 'evidence' for choosing to place one's faith in the existence of God is the positive result derived from having done so. This does not prove that God exists, but it does prove that faith, when properly understood and applied, does work, and does work positively and effectively. The whole "God question" isn't really about whether or not God exists, because there is no possible way any human could ever determine that. The real question is about choosing whether or not to trust in the existence of a God. It's a question of faith, not existence.

    Some theists understand this, and some do not. Few atheists understand it. Which is why the debate is never resolved.
     
  4. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Can you give us one example, please.

    :(
    I suppose that person probably might believe we can't breath underwater, because we were raised believing that too.
     
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  5. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Well-Known Member

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    EBFE5DD9-8560-448D-B619-C4F448D1CC78.jpeg
     
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  6. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    Which would require the exact faith complained about in the OP.

    From a position of ignorance, faith is a necessity. However, IMO, faith shouldn't be a lifetime condition.
     
  7. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Yes. I know what you said, but it seems I don't really understand it, because it does not seem to be saying that Faith follows (or is built on) evidence. So it does not define faith in the sense of the OP. However, like I said, I might not understand what you are saying.
     
  8. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Ah. Someone can't seem to explain their position, so they post a picture. :)
    Do you have something to say on the subject at hand?
     
  9. Rival

    Rival Dex Me Gart
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    I was just saying that I have yet to meet a person who has the kind of evidence-less faith you seem to describe in your OP. I know no-one who believes in God 'just because'.
     
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  10. Suave

    Suave Simulated character

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    I suspect somebody tried that already, and he preceded in death one of his family members who wrote: You must not test the LORD your God
     
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  11. viole

    viole Ontological Naturalist
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    Of course. That happens all the time.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
  12. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen Veteran Member

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    ...and all of the other religions claim the same. Now what?
     
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  13. viole

    viole Ontological Naturalist
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    Yes, that is exactly what my Muslim friend told me, too. I am denying Allah because I do not want to fry in His Hell.

    So, you think that counts as an argument? If not, why not?

    Ciao

    - viole
     
    #53 viole, Sep 3, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2021
  14. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    In principle I totally agree... but I do have one question...

    What evidence did Abraham have to believe and take up his family and start heading to a destination that he didn't know about?
     
  15. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    You don't find it ironic that the atheist says the same things the believer does? Aren't both saying they are right and the other wrong, and the reason the other doesn't believe like them is because they don't want to face the real truth?

    What makes you different in such a stance? That you really do have the truth and they don't? Isn't that what they say about you? Isn't this just the flipside of the same "true believer" coin?
     
  16. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen Veteran Member

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    Not a thing. I was addressing claims made by the OP; that scripture = evidence.
     
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  17. viole

    viole Ontological Naturalist
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    That is not an answer to my question.

    Is the argument of my Muslim fiend worthy of attention? Something that explains my atheism? Namely, my refusal of accepting Allah judgement?

    I ask because it is identical to your argument.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
  18. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Are you looking for signs? No sign will be give this wicked generation, except the sign of Jonah. - Jesus. :p
    Seriously though, just as the mason builds boxing, for his concrete slab, but removes it after the cement hardens, the signs Jesus and his apostles performed served their purpose. Afterward, when the Christian congregation was established, and before the great apostasy, those signs were no longer necessary.

    Paul's comments at 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 helps us appreciate that.
    "Love never fails. But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with. When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known. Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love."

    Evidence for whom?
    There were evidence for who lived at that time.
    Do we have evidence we can believe the ones who wrote these things? That's where examining the evidence in the Gospels, the writings of Paul, and others, come in. As well as the external evidence supporting the Biblical texts, and the other evidence followers of Christ observe.
    To give just one example... In fact I will give two, since two witnesses are better. :)
    The "claims" the writers made, included Matthew 28:18-20, and matthew 24:14, as well as a number of other texts, such as John 15:17-19 ; 2 Timothy 3:12, 13 and perhaps hundreds of scriptures, give evidence of both the truthfulness, and reliability of those "claims". That evidence is clear.
    Add that to the text at John 13:34, 35, and there is no doubt about other texts, including Galatians 5:19-23.
    ...and on, and on.

    Is that why detectives disagree, and juries, and forensic experts... because they have no evidence?
    I think you redefined the word evidence, to mean something it does not mean.
    Evidence is not determined by what individuals think.
    Evidence is just the information, or data, sitting there doing nothing, and people examine it, and form conclusions, based on how they interpret that data.

    More than one person may agree on something, while more than one person agrees on something different.
     
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  19. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Try not to just see words. Put sentences together, and get the meaning.
    I was speaking of people living in Jesus' day.
    People who saw Pharaohs of Egypt can tell you all they know about them. If Pharaoh hit a man on his head, people witnessed it. They had evidence.
    People who saw Jesus, knew what they saw. That would be evidence for them.
     
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  20. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    Your response was not an answer to my question either, which was how is it any different when the atheist uses the exact same language to explain the disbelief of the theist, that the theist uses to explain the disbelief of the atheist? Can you answer why you say the same words, yet it's not the flipside of the same 'believerism" coin?

    But I will attempt to address your question here below. Then you can address mine as well?

    It is from his perspective, just as much as your question about his faith is from your perspective. You consider your question worthy of attention, the same as he considers his or hers worthy of attention too. I hear the same concerns being expressed, beginning from different perspectives, each claiming to have the real truth.

    That to me says they share more in common, than the differences. Arguing heads instead of tails, means you're both using the same coin.

    There are many ways to understand how or why someone chooses the atheistic perspective of ultimate reality. There are also many reasons why someone chooses the theistic perspective of ultimate reality. Simply saying it's because they "don't want to believe" easily can be said both directions. Are either right?

    I'm not saying their claims have any more merit than yours. I'm saying they are both doing the same thing. They are brothers and sisters from the same parents.
     
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