So it is your personal assessment? Most liberals and even atheists will agree with what jesus taught. Many conservative Christians do not. He taught basic human decency.
But what religious truth are you referring to?
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But what religious truth are you referring to?
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Are you actually saying that Christians disagree with basic human decency? Tell me I have misunderstood you.
joelr
Well-Known Member
I thought as much. So this is still exactly blind faith. You just won't admit it.
When historians are brought up you put on some tap dance about how you don't want expert opinions. Well that's because they demonstrate these are stories taken from older stories and thats it.
All of the early OT can be shown to be Mesopotamian myths re-worked. Everything else is Hellenism and Persian myths (both occupied Israelite culture during this period).
Hellenistic religion
All of the existing religions in the Middle East were influenced by this movement:
"With few exceptions, each of these religions, originally tied to a specific geographic area and people, had traditions extending back centuries before the Hellenistic period. In their homeland they were inextricably tied to local loyalties and ambitions. Each persisted in its native land with little perceptible change save for its becoming linked to nationalistic or messianic movements (centring on a deliverer figure) seeking to overthrow Greco-Roman political and cultural domination. "
"rom Palestine to Persia one may trace the rise of Wisdom literature (the teachings of a sage concerning the hidden purposes of the deity) and apocalyptic traditions (referring to a belief in the dramatic intervention of a god in human and natural events) that represent these central concerns"
Savior demigods was part of this movement:
"This led to a change from concern for a religion of national prosperity to one for individual salvation, from focus on a particular ethnic group to concern for every human. The prophet or saviour replaced the priest and king as the chief religious figure. "
Even the actual concept of having a soul that returned to Heaven was a Greek myth not a Jewish myth. During the occupations Hebrew religious philosophers slowly adapted these beliefs into their religion as well:
"
Second Temple Judaism[edit]
During the period of the Second Temple (c. 515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[48] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[48] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[49][50] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[50] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[50] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[50] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[48] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[40] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.[40]"
Christianity is the blending of Persian and Hellenism with Judaism. It's pointed out in a book by Petra Pakken that all of the religions in the region, Syrians, Thracians and so on, all had similar blendings and each had their own savior demigod who provided salvation.
It's 100% clear that Judaism was already a myth derived to give people laws, philosophy and a unity as were all religions of the time. Then it was blended with new ideas. That's it. No other evidence. You can look at all the remaining evidence and completely debunk it and show it's no more real than Hinduism or Greek Gods.
When you have to come up with conspiracy theories about scholarship and bogus reasons why you cannot discuss real evidence this is blind faith.
There is no solid block of Christians that are unified in any way. Christians can be from bleeding heart Bernie Sanders supporters all the way to right wing extremists who are white supremacists and abortion doctor killers. So you are going to have decent people on one end of the broad spectrum to extremely prejudiced and violent people on the other. The more fervent and conservative the Christian, the less likely they will agree with things jesus taught. This is just simple observations and listening to various Christians state what they believe.
I'd go so far as to say that fundamentalist Christians are anti-Christs. They tend to be opposed to most everything Jesus taught. But they are Christian because they want the salvation that he died for, but none of the moral obligations to being decent human beings. I find this very fascinating.
Brian2
Veteran Member
You seem to have given a good answer to your own question.
How so? What solid evidence against faith, as I have defined it above? That's a subjective, intuitive knowing in the face of uncertainty and unknowing. Though I can doubt all things, faith gives rest and assurance of security and peace in itself alone, even when everything we believed to be true is in question.
So I don't see how anyone can find evidence against something that is subjective in nature like that? What? "No, you are mistaken to feel peace? You should feel terrified about being wrong about something?" I would be amused hearing that as a said challenge to faith.
Attacks on the Bible are attacks on faith imo, faith in Jesus. There are other attacks which attack faith in God and the existence of God. Our own failures can as humans and misunderstanding of the Bible can bring attacks on our faith also. It would be great if we all had a faith as you describe but not all of us have that, Yet we have the faith that we are given and we can withstand whatever is thrown at us with that faith and be certain that it will not be too much for us to bear.
Nevertheless some people do jump off the hand of God and lose faith.
True I agree, beliefism is a cheap substitute.
Sometimes because of lack of understanding some things have to be put in the too hard basket. Better to do that than to give up on God and His word.
Some people no doubt lose faith in God completely when they find out their beliefs are wrong. It can make me wonder at time about attacking the beliefs of others on this forum.
To an extent.
I certainly cannot judge someone for their particular beliefs about God and Jesus.
There are no doubt different ways to look at things which are fine and sometimes we can incorporate more than one way of looking at the same thing and grow by it. And I don't know how God will judge people whom I see as holding heresies.
Nevertheless I would say there is only one truth even if probably nobody knows all of that truth, talking about beliefs. However for Christians it is more about knowing Jesus and the Father rather than knowing the correct head beliefs.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I'm not talking abou tthe extremes. I'm talking about the bulk of every day ordinary christians. Do you beleive they are not concerned with human decency?
Brian2
Veteran Member
You don't need to know much about the Bible to believe in what Jesus did and put your faith in Him.
The Father leads people to the Son and it is the Holy Spirit that convicts them.
John 16:7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[1] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:
After believing they can start to learn more about the Bible.
That is something I have noticed. I could be mistaken and these people might not even be able to see what the Bible says because of the other beliefs they hold, which are the teachings of men which are opposed to what is written in the Bible.
I could be mistaken and I might be the one who cannot see what the Bible is saying. But I don't come to the Bible through a hard and fast doctrinal system so I have picked up my beliefs mainly through what I have read in the Bible and then have known where to hang my hat when it comes to what group or groups are correct or not.
Would be meaning before all ' other ' creation according to -> Colossians 1:15-17.
Please notice that pre-human Jesus is ' first born ' of all creation according to verse 15.
This is in harmony with Proverbs 8:22 as pre-human Jesus being produced as the beginning......
This is what gospel writer John believed when he wrote Revelation 3:14 B
Pre-human Jesus was the beginning of the creation by God.
At Psalms 90:2 God is from and to everlasting meaning that God can Not die.
Whereas, Jesus is the first born from the dead according to Colossians 1:18
First born and beginning shows Jesus as the first one of a group - 1 Corinthians 15:22-23
God created all through Jesus - Ephesians 3:9 B - Resurrected Jesus gives ALL credit to his God - Revelation 4:11.
and as the Bible teaches that dead Jesus did Not resurrect himself - Acts of the Apostles 2:24; Acts of the Apostles 3:15
To me your mention of ' many conservative Christians do not ' are the 'weed/tares ' Christians of Christendom.
'Christendom ' meaning so-called Christian but mostly in name only.
When Jesus said ' Your Word is Truth ' at John 17:17 Jesus was referring to Scripture as ' Religious Truth '.
That is why Jesus based his teachings on the old Hebrew Scriptures as religious truth as found in Scripture.
And that is why Jesus could often preface his statements by using logical reasoning on the old Hebrew Scriptures.
Jesus expounded or explained Scripture for us.
I find a unified solid block of Christians found at www.jw.org
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
"But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity.”
Eternity means he always existed.
"He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."
Can't be before all things if he's created
"Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually."
perpetually.
Revelation 22:13
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
There's no beginning to Jesus.
Source: 15 Bible verses about Preexistence Of Christ
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Where?
Where?
Those laws are descriptive, not prescriptive.
They are our way of describing how the universe operates, that we have come to undertsand via observation, measurement and analysis.
More later.
Which of those statements do yu not agree with?
The evidence seen in the world around us points to an intelligent creator. Romans 1:20 ; Hebrews 3:4
Physicist are not God.
Do you think they are? Then what's your argument?
I hope you are not going to tell me that their beliefs about nature are right.
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Oh. You were there? What name did you go by then?
What reasons do I have for believing you, as opposed to those who claim to have actually witnesses these events first hand, and whose story checks out by secondary sources?
The Jews were wayward - a rebellious stiff-necked lot.
It says so in their own book, which they live by, so why would you accept the claims of a people whose priest were so corrupt they and the people suffered numerous times at the hands of their enemies, and by 70 AD, they still did not change their attitude, and again suffered terribly for it?
It seems to me if I were rebellious, I too would take their side. You know what they say, "Birds of a feather...".
Is that what you got from reading that article?
Then may I suggest you give considerations to why it was posted, because you jumped to the wrong conclusion.
The reason the article was quoted, has nothing to do with evidence, but rather to show that calling an act that involves something beyond one's limited understanding, magic, is neither reasonable, nor logical. It does not fit the facts.
Man in his limited understanding, cannot claim to know all the laws governing nature, and how those laws can be utilized.
Man harnesses energy. he uses it to accomplish amazing things. he is not doing magic. He is simply using elements in a way he understands.
Someone more advanced than man can do far more, beyond man's understanding... and scientist have not ruled our intelligence far greater advanced than man.
So have you pulled the wool over your eyes, and are desperately trying to pull it over other's eyes?
"In their eyes". Yes. Thanks for that.
What kind of eyes did they have, according to their holy book?
Jesus said, ". . .if your eye is wicked, your whole body will be dark. If in reality the light that is in you is darkness, how great that darkness is!" (Matthew 6:23)
Did the Tanakh describe the jews that way? Yes. I don't need to quote from Exodus to Malachi for you.
I have looked at this people and here it is a stiff-necked people. . . (Exodus 32:9)
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Then I suggest you don't know what constitutes evidence.
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Please viole. Just get your head off the book for a minute. Please.
Romans 1:20 says nothing about God having a son. It simply is pointing out that the evidence is clear for one to perceive that there is a creator, and that evidence is being denied.
Can you tell which was painting by an artist... for a certainty?
Would you say someone looking at one of those paintings and saying that someone painted it, is making it up?
They simply are making observations, and coming to a reasonable conclusion.
Likewise, reasonable, rational people, are making observations of the world around them, and coming to a logical conclusion that the design in nature, did not accidentally get there, like the paint on paper made by a cat, which is illustrated in the bottom image. They reasonably concluded that like the above image, the design is nature testifies with certainty, that it was brought about by an intelligent designer.
Paul made up that every house requires a builder, is a logical conclusion. Hence every designed object requires a designer? Is that what you really believe?
Well He did say that men are suppressing the truth in an unrighteous way.
The beginning need not have a beginner. Even scientists recognize this, as some propose a cyclic multiverse generator.
The beginning can produce, but is not produced.
God is not made. He thus was not designed. because of our limited understanding, we have every reason to acknowledge that to reason that the same principle we apply to created objects, must be equally applied to the creator, is simply flawed thinking, and a pride that is beyond imagination.
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Yes. Those are my exact word.
Key words : giving people evidence - reason to believe, and exercise faith
Who was it that got the evidence? Am I talking about you and I, or anyone alive today, Or am I talking about people living in Jesus' day who saw the evidence with their own two eyes... or one?
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Not sure what you are asking. I did not say that all who believe in God have no evidence for God's existence.
Where did you read that in the OP?
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@blü 2
Thank you.
Scientist find explanations for phenomenon.
What makes their explanation better than another who explains design in nature as the product of a designer?
nPeace
Veteran Member
Seems about right.
So if you thought that, why are you on the topic of proof?
You are aware that proof is not evidence, and they are not the same thing, but different?... I hope.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Because you brought it up.
Alright. So forget proof then (which you yourself brought up) and provide "evidence" for Jesus performing miracles.
I am just following through with your OP.
nPeace
Veteran Member
No sir. You are the one saying God is a designed object. So tell me please, why do you think God is designed?No. The concept is entirely yours. Here, let me prove it.
Please tell us what is a scientist. Hence a super-scientist is...?
Thus the concept cannot fit God, and is a wrong concept. Can you understand that?
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Humans do the same.
Have you never heard of the "fight or flight response" that occurs in response to our autonomic nervous system being triggered by perceived dangers in our environment?
nPeace
Veteran Member
I don't understand. An effect of what... absolutely truth?
What are you saying then? I'm not following you. Please elaborate.
Not this atheist.
There's a lot of stuff in Jesus's teachings that is downright evil or ridiculous if the factual claims of Christianity aren't true.
Sure: kicking out members who don't toe the party line is a pretty effective way to ensure conformity.
PureX
Veteran Member
The truth is 'what is'. It is ALL that is (there is no 'what isn't'). We exist within that truth, and as a part of that truth. But we do not have direct access to the truth apart from ourselves. We are trapped within our bodies and our minds, that are also trapped within the whole of 'what is'. A whole that we cannot comprehend.
Here is my point: the phenomenon happening to us, and the phenomenological result that happens within us because of it ARE ALL THE SAME PHENOMENA. It's all one event, happening. An acorn falls into a pond and the surface of the water records the shock waves as they ripple away from the epicenter of the event, There is no "object/subject" in this. Cause and effect are both aspects of the same event.
When the weight falls on my foot and my body records the shock as a wave of pain, it's all one event. Like the acorn and the water. There is no "objective event" existing separate from a "subjective response". There is just phenomena; both of an objective and subjective nature. BOTH EQUALLY EXTANT,
A barking dog is a whole mess of interrelated phenomena that then creates another mess of interrelated response phenomena in us when we experience it. None of this phenomena is more or less "real' than any other. Because it's ALL part of the same phenomena. And ultimately of the phenomenon of existence. It ALL EXISTS, and equally so.
Does this help at all?
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