Just a Question?

[Father]

Just a Question.

Why does an Omniscient being. capable of running billions of variables and equations through his head enough so to design the universe which is just a complex ball of a headache that we have barely scratched the surface of understanding.

somehow have emotions? he himself describes himself as "jealous and wrathful" emotions only exist in us because we are a social species, and need them as to keep order and ties and such. so why would a being of singularity have them?

more importantly, why does he seem Bi-polar and have abandonment issues? one moment he is happy the other he is burning everything to the ground, furthermore if you have read the OT he compares the city of the Jews, Israel or was it Jerusalem (one of the two) to a prostitute and he threatened to back the northern barbarians and have them ransack the city if the Jews (Israelites) don't go back to worshiping just him.

why does an Omnipotent being need an army of the bronze age, people, to burn down other Gods temples and forcibly convert their people?

it seems odd, especially seeing as how a being of grand intelligence would most likely look and act nothing like us. yet the greatest being in existence apparently seems to act like a very magnified Human. with each of his emotions on complete Max gauge and him only feeling one emotion at a given time.

I mean its a bit interesting how every God of every religion seems to act suspiciously Human. and has the same ideals of morality and culture as the area of Geography that it rules. i mean the Hindu Gods seem to hold Indian ideals while the Middle eastern Gods seem to hold the ideals and morality of that time.


on a side note, I think the Religion with the best P.R team and advertising campaign would be the Japanese Gods. chicks with fox ears and tails? sign me up. wait they got a God for pretty much everything? that makes it easier see I was just wanting the God of women and wine. I don't need all this fire and lighting and light stuff.

its sort of like T.V the Abrahamic God is like a Comcast package. you get 1000 shows of absolutely nothing when you only really want to watch the cooking show and like 2 others.
the Japanese and in turn Germanic Pagan Gods you get the show you want for half the price and you can ignore all the rest. that's far better marketing.

if ya need me I will be chilling with
Ama-No-Uzume
and
Dionysus

 

[icehorse]

indeed. it's a stumper!

 

[sun rise]

Ah, yet another statement in the form of a question.

 

[siti]

Just a Question.

Why does an Omniscient being. capable of running billions of variables and equations through his head enough so to design the universe which is just a complex ball of a headache that we have barely scratched the surface of understanding.

somehow have emotions? he himself describes himself as "jealous and wrathful" emotions only exist in us because we are a social species, and need them as to keep order and ties and such. so why would a being of singularity have them?

more importantly, why does he seem Bi-polar and have abandonment issues? one moment he is happy the other he is burning everything to the ground, furthermore if you have read the OT he compares the city of the Jews, Israel or was it Jerusalem (one of the two) to a prostitute and he threatened to back the northern barbarians and have them ransack the city if the Jews (Israelites) don't go back to worshiping just him.

why does an Omnipotent being need an army of the bronze age, people, to burn down other Gods temples and forcibly convert their people?

it seems odd, especially seeing as how a being of grand intelligence would most likely look and act nothing like us. yet the greatest being in existence apparently seems to act like a very magnified Human. with each of his emotions on complete Max gauge and him only feeling one emotion at a given time.

I mean its a bit interesting how every God of every religion seems to act suspiciously Human. and has the same ideals of morality and culture as the area of Geography that it rules. i mean the Hindu Gods seem to hold Indian ideals while the Middle eastern Gods seem to hold the ideals and morality of that time.


on a side note, I think the Religion with the best P.R team and advertising campaign would be the Japanese Gods. chicks with fox ears and tails? sign me up. wait they got a God for pretty much everything? that makes it easier see I was just wanting the God of women and wine. I don't need all this fire and lighting and light stuff.

its sort of like T.V the Abrahamic God is like a Comcast package. you get 1000 shows of absolutely nothing when you only really want to watch the cooking show and like 2 others.
the Japanese and in turn Germanic Pagan Gods you get the show you want for half the price and you can ignore all the rest. that's far better marketing.

if ya need me I will be chilling with
Ama-No-Uzume
and
Dionysus

Dear Father - if I may address a self-proclaimed Deist in such theistically-loaded terms - are you, by any chance, a reincarnation of Tom Paine? I ask this because this kind of satirical polemic against theism (esp. of the Abrahamic variety) has been pretty well done to death (still mildly amusing though I must say) since his time. Since this is a debate forum, maybe you might consider posting something about what a Deist is for (your fox ears and tails fetish aside and if you haven't already done so elsewhere) rather than just restating what your are against again and again and again (not you personally - but Deists have been doing that for nigh on 400 years now).

Maybe a better question might be why does a belief in such a deity persist in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary? What is it that reason and observation fail to provide that revelation does? If you could figure that out, you might be able to sell deism as a viable alternative to theism. As it is, deism is generally seen by outsiders as the occasionally vociferous and belligerent, but ultimately pallid and inconsequential little brother of its much older and very much bigger sibling.

 

[George-ananda]

I personally consider understandings post bronze age. And eastern/Vedic understandings.

 

[Father]

Maybe a better question might be why does a belief in such a deity persist in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary? .

Same reason why some think the World is flat still
or communism a workable system
Humans are quite dumb creatures

people prefer a personal God that has feelings and somehow is looking out for them. as the truth of their insignificance and meaningless actions is to much for them to handle. furthermore tradition. whats easier what you have been raised on and your community and the only thing that really ties you together and forces your cooperation?

or highly intelligent beings having 0 similarities with you and the reason for existence so far above you that your guessing it is like trying to explain to an ant why humans have amusement parks. they lack the ability to remove themselves from the process entirely and to see how non-human centric the universe is.
furthermore, it's Human nature. Humans are herd animals. the base IQ of a group of 1000 is far lower than a group of 100. people in larger amounts get dumber and dumber.
people would rather have a pre-packaged set of ideas and creed and be told exactly what to do and exactly what to think all the while feeling like they are in complete control. in their lives. in their relationships. in their world. when they are not. you are not. I am not. none of us are. we are just riding the waves of conflicts caused by 1000s of variable's outside our control.

 

[siti]

Same reason why some think the World is flat still
or communism a workable system
Humans are quite dumb creatures

people prefer a personal God that has feelings and somehow is looking out for them. as the truth of their insignificance and meaningless actions is to much for them to handle. furthermore tradition. whats easier what you have been raised on and your community and the only thing that really ties you together and forces your cooperation?

or highly intelligent beings having 0 similarities with you and the reason for existence so far above you that your guessing it is like trying to explain to an ant why humans have amusement parks. they lack the ability to remove themselves from the process entirely and to see how non-human centric the universe is.
furthermore, it's Human nature. Humans are herd animals. the base IQ of a group of 1000 is far lower than a group of 100. people in larger amounts get dumber and dumber.
people would rather have a pre-packaged set of ideas and creed and be told exactly what to do and exactly what to think all the while feeling like they are in complete control. in their lives. in their relationships. in their world. when they are not. you are not. I am not. none of us are. we are just riding the waves of conflicts caused by 1000s of variable's outside our control.

Well OK - then how does the belief in an absquatulating and disinterested absentee Designer "Deus" - who has left us without hope of divine assistance or even evidence of his existence - help with that exactly? I mean, you're poking fun at the dumb beliefs of those who genuinely feel that God is involved in their lives whilst at the same time touting the existence of a deity you could not possibly know to exist. We know that the world is round and that life in the vastness of the 'chaosmos' is governed by random meaninglessness - and yet it required an all-intelligent Designer? How is that rational?

PS - I currently live in a country with a population of less than one million - by your "herd stupidity" reasoning that should make my country of residence an order of magnitude or two smarter than the US and most European countries...hmmm! You could be onto something there...

PPS - I was wondering if this: "Humans are quite dumb creatures", was your explanation of why some people still believe communism to be a workable system or why you think it isn't a workable system. I can see it from both sides - it certainly would need greater intelligence than I have seen expressed by anti-communists to make it work...but then people who imagine it could work with right wing stupidity rampant among the herd of dumb creatures that believe the kind of stuff I am reading here would have to pretty dumb too! For the record - since you raised the subject - I am not dumb enough to think that communism could work - but I am smart enough to realize that its the right thing to do. I am probably both before and after my time in that respect. One can only hope that future generations do a better job than we have - and I reckon they probably will.

 

[Father]

Well OK - then how does the belief in an absquatulating and disinterested absentee Designer "Deus" - who has left us without hope of divine assistance or even evidence of his existence - help with that exactly? I mean, you're poking fun at the dumb beliefs of those who genuinely feel that God is involved in their lives whilst at the same time touting the existence of a deity you could not possibly know to exist. We know that the world is round and that life in the vastness of the 'chaosmos' is governed by random meaninglessness - and yet it required an all-intelligent Designer? How is that rational?

PS - I currently live in a country with a population of less than one million - by your "herd stupidity" reasoning that should make my country of residence an order of magnitude or two smarter than the US and most European countries...hmmm! You could be onto something there...

Your name is so close to being Sitri. it hurts.
also the evidence well it's not really evidenced it's just a logical probability based on the mathematical system of the universe, the fact the laws of it never seem to break. and how the closer you look the more it looks like something we would program. the more logical it could be presumed that a being could in fact of made it. or not. my bet is something did. especially based on the multiverse theory if every universe has different properties there is bound to be one made by something. or if a species has the ability to run advanced simulations that mathematically we are the simulation.
no, while the order of the cosmos is meaningless to us granted its hardly random. if the big bang tis the cause of everything. then this is one giant domino chain. your calling it "random" is simply your lack of understanding of science. if I drop an apple is it falling randomly? no its due to gravity and my letting go of it. while it has no meaning its hardly random.
I don't argue that Christians or religious people are dumb for assuming that the universe has a maker. really if everything can come from nothing then whats one more number to the equation?

I argue that their ideas are illogical as they heap mounds of human bs onto this intelligent being, as if something that can create universes would even be similar to us is bountifully arrogant. furthermore, why would it care about them? add on all the logical flaws in an omniscient being, being the God described in the bible and it completely destroy's their own argument from a purely logical perspective.
im not arguing that God is a white dude up in the clouds who seems to get mad when we don't use our parts properly

im arguing based on the mathmatical order and predictability of the universe and the probability that every universe probably has different properties to it, one or more is bound to of been made. also if a species could run simulations on a scale like our universe. which some theoretically could. that they would run many. and if one species does it in one universe. multiply in abundance. than the odds of us being one of them. is quite likely.

it would become illogical for me to assume what this being would want or even to try and guess or assume as it would be like a ant contemplating the Sun.

 

[siti]

...the closer you look the more it looks like something we would program.

...if a species has the ability to run advanced simulations that mathematically we are the simulation.

I argue that their ideas are illogical as they heap mounds of human bs onto this intelligent being, as if something that can create universes would even be similar to us...

This sequence of thoughts is logically consistent to you? All you have done here is to take the Bronze Age anthropomorphic creation myth and update it for the computer age - just as the 18th century deists did in the clockwork age...tick tock, tick tock...buzz, buzz, beep, beep...

Why would you assume that a programmed simulation designed by a super-intelligent "Being" capable of creating the multiverse would write code that bears even a passing resemblance to anything that a species of oafish and follicly-challenged apes on an insignificant planet in an unremarkable backwater of a completely average and cosmically irrelevant galaxy would type into their cack-handed and error-ridden apps and patches?

 

[Father]

This sequence of thoughts is logically consistent to you? All you have done here is to take the Bronze Age anthropomorphic creation myth and update it for the computer age - just as the 18th century deists did in the clockwork age...tick tock, tick tock...buzz, buzz, beep, beep...

Why would you assume that a programmed simulation designed by a super-intelligent "Being" capable of creating the multiverse would write code that bears even a passing resemblance to anything that a species of oafish and follicly-challenged apes on an insignificant planet in an unremarkable backwater of a completely average and cosmically irrelevant galaxy would code in their cack-handed computing clumsiness?

mathematics is mathematics and code is code. math is the language of everything. so it would be similar to something we would do. even the most advanced equations have some hint of simplicity,
furthermore some in the field of science and even quantum physics give the simulation theory credence
Law of probability, if it is possible that someone somewhere in this multiverse has done it. and if they did it they probably did it a lot. and if they did it a lot who says other did not?

granted the theory falls apart if math is solely unique to our universe and anything outside it has something else. or if running a simulation the size of a universe was impossible. but until either can be proven the theory still holds quite some ground. both in probability and simple logical reasoning.

 

[Father]

This sequence of thoughts is logically consistent to you? All you have done here is to take the Bronze Age anthropomorphic creation myth and update it for the computer age - just as the 18th century deists did in the clockwork age...tick tock, tick tock...buzz, buzz, beep, beep...

Why would you assume that a programmed simulation designed by a super-intelligent "Being" capable of creating the multiverse would write code that bears even a passing resemblance to anything that a species of oafish and follicly-challenged apes on an insignificant planet in an unremarkable backwater of a completely average and cosmically irrelevant galaxy would type into their cack-handed and error-ridden apps and patches?

it's entirely an assumption. not based without some reason. if the Universe has ordered. and Law. and mathematical principles that make some of it predictable. then an architect who put those base Laws in place. whether it be through a program or other means. would be possible.
if a Multiverse does exist. then even more so. as if a species that can run simulations on this scale wanted too (i don't know why but one is bound to try) than they would run many. and if they would run many. then others would run many. and so on and so forth until 80% of all possible universe's happen to be simulations.
just like if planets have the same properties as earth, which we know some do. that the probability of life of them or one of them is near absolute. as if it can spontaneously occur here. even if it takes 1M Earth-Like planets until another one has it. then it still is true as the universe is seemingly endless.
both go off the Law of probability. even if I am wrong and this universe came from nothing *which I actually hope for as it means we can possibly create one ourselves from nothing or create things from nothing* than by the law of probability it has probably happened somewhere.

 

[siti]

some in the field of science and even quantum physics give the simulation theory credence

and others in the field of science and even quantum physics give theistic creation credence - so what? The head of the largest biomedical research agency in the world is a theist.

the Universe does work quite like clockwork

No it doesn't. The whole point of the quantum physics you just invoked to support your "simulated universe" idea is that it is not a clockwork universe. This idea is a century out of date...tick, tock...

 

[Father]

and others in the field of science and even quantum physics give theistic creation credence - so what? The head of the largest biomedical research agency in the world is a theist.

No it doesn't. The whole point of the quantum physics you just invoked to support your "simulated universe" idea is that it is not a clockwork universe. This idea is a century out of date...tick, tock...

clockwork. granted not like an actual clock. it means it has order. or reason. quantum physics does, we simply don't know the reason yet. unless you assume everything is powered by magic?

 

[Father]

and others in the field of science and even quantum physics give theistic creation credence - so what? The head of the largest biomedical research agency in the world is a theist.

No it doesn't. The whole point of the quantum physics you just invoked to support your "simulated universe" idea is that it is not a clockwork universe. This idea is a century out of date...tick, tock...

i drop a apple. why does it fall? gravity. what causes gravity? etc, follow everything back everything has a cause. if everything has a cause. IT AINT RANDOM.

 

[siti]

...and mathematical principles that make some of it predictable. then an architect who put those base Laws in place. whether it be through a program or other means. would be possible.

But that's still anthropomorphic thinking - your argument is that because the universe is somewhat amenable to human understanding it is likely that it was created by something (someone) with human-like understanding. There is no sound logical basis for such an assumption.

 

[siti]

what causes gravity?

I don't know. Do you?

 

[Father]

But that's still anthropomorphic thinking - your argument is that because the universe is somewhat amenable to human understanding it is likely that it was created by something (someone) with human-like understanding. There is no sound logical basis for such an assumption.

never said human-like understanding. I did say mathematical understanding as even other animals can do math. a wolf can count to 5. no advanced intelligent life can exist without an understanding of math. or basic math.

 

[Father]

I don't know. Do you?

to assume an alien species, which would have to have an advanced understanding of math to even exist with any predominance. would wish to run a simulation for whatever reason. is a stretch however not one out of the realm of probability, if it can happen. it has happened. as there are an unlimited amount of universes. if such is the case. it probably happened a lot.

just like if an earth like a planet can exist. then there is bound to be more. if life can exist on one. there is bound to be life on others just like it.

even if such is not the case for us. it can be the case for other's which is why simply ruling it out would be naive and ignorant

 

[Father]

But that's still anthropomorphic thinking - your argument is that because the universe is somewhat amenable to human understanding it is likely that it was created by something (someone) with human-like understanding. There is no sound logical basis for such an assumption.

you simply assume human-like. simply because humans do it.

tell me when a chimp bashes a rock against a nut to break it open. is it copying Humans? no that's absurd. it simply solves the problem like we do. rock plus force plus nut equals cracked nut. thats math!

a crow can do 3 step problem-solving. is it copying the monkey or human? no.

only math is apparent to most intelligent life even if its the simplest form. so to say an alien/possible"God" that uses advanced math that we could recognize is
Human-like
is quite arrogant and human-centrist.

 

[siti]

Yeah, yeah...but I still don't know what causes gravity - do you know or not?